Digital BW, The Print

Just a quick question.  I just switched to the 2200.  Great printer, but as
expected the mono prints exhibit quite a lot of color shift going from
tungsten to fluorescent or whatever.  I see the IP profiles are matched to
the light source, so I assume that IP will not produce a single print
appearing the same way in differing light.  I tried the MIS VM inks in the
1270 with good results, but I like to "tone" prints in various ways outside
the range of the VM inksets.  Any experience as to whether IP can reduce the
metamerism substantially will be appreciated -- I have no control over how
the prints will be exhibited.  I am printing on PremierArt hot-press and
Arches Infinity, which are warm toned papers to begin with.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com

download the demo from calumet and try it - you can just about make out how
it works behind the giant DEMO it prints on every print... :-)

they have greyscale profiles for both papers on their website


tim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Carney [mailto:kcarney1@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:15 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] IP5.6 and metamerism
>
>
> Just a quick question.  I just switched to the 2200.  Great
> printer, but as
> expected the mono prints exhibit quite a lot of color shift going from
> tungsten to fluorescent or whatever.  I see the IP profiles are matched to
> the light source, so I assume that IP will not produce a single print
> appearing the same way in differing light.  I tried the MIS VM inks in the
> 1270 with good results, but I like to "tone" prints in various
> ways outside
> the range of the VM inksets.  Any experience as to whether IP can
> reduce the
> metamerism substantially will be appreciated -- I have no control over how
> the prints will be exhibited.  I am printing on PremierArt hot-press and
> Arches Infinity, which are warm toned papers to begin with.
>
> Regards,
>
>   --Ken Carney
>     www.kencarney.com
>
>
>
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>

Ken  -
 
I have a 9600 with IP5.6, but the results should be quite similar.  At least on the papers I use, metamerism is, for all practical purposes, not present.  It is my understanding that the different profiles for the different viewing lights are to compensate just for the color of the light.  I beleive that they are not related to metamerism.
 
Tom Baker

Ken Carney <kcarney1@...> wrote:
Just a quick question.  I just switched to the 2200.  Great printer, but as
expected the mono prints exhibit quite a lot of color shift going from
tungsten to fluorescent or whatever.  I see the IP profiles are matched to
the light source, so I assume that IP will not produce a single print
appearing the same way in differing light.  I tried the MIS VM inks in the
1270 with good results, but I like to "tone" prints in various ways outside
the range of the VM inksets.  Any experience as to whether IP can reduce the
metamerism substantially will be appreciated -- I have no control over how
the prints will be exhibited.  I am printing on PremierArt hot-press and
Arches Infinity, which are warm toned papers to begin with.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
It is my understanding that the different profiles for the different 
viewing lights are to compensate just for the color of the light.  I 
beleive that they are not related to metamerism.

Huh?

Isn't this what metamerism is all about? The print looks different 
in different light.

Any experience as to whether IP can reduce the
> metamerism substantially will be appreciated -- I have no 
control over how
> the prints will be exhibited. 


As far as I understand color management,  metamerism - at first 
line - is an ink problem and not so much a function of a certain 
software.
So it would be unwise to believe, that a software could be able to 
reduce an ink problem substantially - especially if you have no 
control over the light conditions in which your prints will be 
shown.
Actually the different profiles which IP is offering for one paper 
are built to overcome this problem by targeting the profile to a 
special light source.
So, if you really have no control over the light, one could only 
recommend to use a profile which is targeted to a "mixed light 
environment"  (IP ECWF2 profiles), that should be a good 
compromise at least.
Bernd

> From: Ruhrfoto/Bernd L. [mailto:ruhrfoto@...]
>
> As far as I understand color management,  metamerism - at first
> line - is an ink problem and not so much a function of a certain
> software.
> So it would be unwise to believe, that a software could be able to
> reduce an ink problem substantially - especially if you have no
> control over the light conditions in which your prints will be
> shown.

Metamerism is affected by the degree to which black is used as a substitute
for C+M+Y, because the color inks exhibit the problem more than the black
ink does. The far end of that tradeoff spectrum is of course making B&W
prints using black ink only.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

If you print out four copies of an image on on piece of paper using the 4 different profiles that IP typically provides, you will see that each has a slight color shift to compensate visually for the differences in viewing light.  Metamerism with IP, at least on my printer is, for all practical purposes, non existent with the Ultrachrome inks.  The slight, but noticeable, color shift with each of the profiles is visible.  In theory, then, each of the four should have the correct balance to provide visually accurate viewing under the designed for light source.  That is a different issue than metamerism.
 
Tom Baker

Diane Benedict <highhopes813@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
It is my understanding that the different profiles for the different 
viewing lights are to compensate just for the color of the light.  I 
beleive that they are not related to metamerism.

Huh?

Isn't this what metamerism is all about? The print looks different 
in different light.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> From: Diane Benedict [mailto:highhopes813@...]
>
> Isn't this what metamerism is all about? The print looks different
> in different light.

Well, not exactly. Most things look different in different color light, but
the eye and brain tend to filter out those differences, if not too drastic.
Metamerism usually refers to things looking different in unexpected ways,
due to odd bumps and notches in the spectral response of the ink.

But you're probably right that the different profiles are indeed for
compensating for metamerism, since that's the problem that everyone
complains about.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Diane Benedict [mailto:highhopes813@yahoo.com] 
* Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 4:44 AM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IP5.6 and metamerism
* 
* 
* --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
* <tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
* It is my understanding that the different profiles for the different 
* viewing lights are to compensate just for the color of the light.  I 
* beleive that they are not related to metamerism.
* 
* Huh?
* 
* Isn't this what metamerism is all about? The print looks different 
* in different light.

Diane,

Yes and no. Those of us involved in inkjet printing use the term metamerism
but we really are not using it properly.

Metamerism is a condition that exists when comparing TWO color samples that
match under one set of conditions.

A definition:

"Metamerism refers to the situation where two colour samples appear to match
under one condition but not under another; the match is said to be
conditional. Metamerism is usually discussed in terms of two illuminants
(illuminant metamerism) whereby two samples may match under one illuminant
but not under another. Other types of metamerism include geometrical
metamerism and observer metamerism. Two samples that conditionally match are
said to be a metameric pair. If two samples have identical reflectance
spectra then they cannot be metameric - they are an unconditional match."

For a good explanation check out this excellent article:

http://www.mwords.co.uk/pages/FAQ/articleMetamerism.htm

Everything changes color when you change the light source. Under a warm
tungsten light bulb you would expect a print to look warm. I blue daylight
it is going to look cooler, under fluorescent it will sometimes look greener
but that may depend upon the fluorescent tubes being used.

If I say a print has metamerism, I mean that it makes an unexpected change
in color under different light sources. For example if it looks cooler under
warm tungsten light and warm in daylight. This would be a change in an
unexpected color direction. To a lesser degree of metamerism might give you
a print that gets warmer under tungsten or cooler under daylight  but the
change is much stronger than you would expect.

We use the word a lot here but I don't think we all mean exactly the same
thing. The problem is also compounded by the fact that near the neutral
point very slight changes in hue are perceived differently. I think that a
lot of us, including me, do not have perfectly balanced color vision and
that it changes subtly day-to-day and hour-to-hour as you move from one
lighting condition to another.

I hope that helps but I may have made things more confusing.

Martin Wesley
www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

I think the problem may be that the instructions for Epson PremierArt
scrapbook paper (which I take to be PremierArt hot-press museum paper, of
which a bunch just came in) said to use the 2200 settings for EEM.  So, I
used the EEM profile to print, and get a warm print in tungsten and north
light, and very strong magenta cast under fluourescent.  I searched for a
profile for the scrapbook paper, but could not find one.  Does anyone know
of one available for this (these) paper(s), or do I need to get a custom
profile?  thanks

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com

-----Original Message-----

From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:10 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] IP5.6 and metamerism

> I think the problem may be that the instructions for Epson PremierArt
> scrapbook paper (which I take to be PremierArt hot-press museum paper, of
> which a bunch just came in) said to use the 2200 settings for EEM.  So, I
> used the EEM profile to print, and get a warm print in tungsten and north
> light, and very strong magenta cast under fluourescent.  I searched for a
> profile for the scrapbook paper, but could not find one.  Does anyone know
> of one available for this (these) paper(s), or do I need to get a custom
> profile?  thanks

B&W or colour?

Are you inquiring about a profile in IP5.6?  If so, it's under "other," 
listed as PremierArt.  I found the BW prints slighly greenish from that profile.  I 
prefer using the PhotoRag profile on PremierArt paper.

Helene
I think the problem may be that the instructions for Epson PremierArt
scrapbook paper (which I take to be PremierArt hot-press museum paper, of
which a bunch just came in) said to use the 2200 settings for EEM.  So, I
used the EEM profile to print, and get a warm print in tungsten and north
light, and very strong magenta cast under fluourescent.  I searched for a
profile for the scrapbook paper, but could not find one.  Does anyone know
of one available for this (these) paper(s), or do I need to get a custom
profile?  thanks


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

B&W

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Atherton [mailto:timatherton@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 8:44 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] IP5.6 and metamerism



> I think the problem may be that the instructions for Epson PremierArt
> scrapbook paper (which I take to be PremierArt hot-press museum paper, of
> which a bunch just came in) said to use the 2200 settings for EEM.  So, I
> used the EEM profile to print, and get a warm print in tungsten and north
> light, and very strong magenta cast under fluourescent.  I searched for a
> profile for the scrapbook paper, but could not find one.  Does anyone know
> of one available for this (these) paper(s), or do I need to get a custom
> profile?  thanks

B&W or colour?

>
> > I think the problem may be that the instructions for Epson PremierArt
> > scrapbook paper (which I take to be PremierArt hot-press museum
> paper, of
> > which a bunch just came in) said to use the 2200 settings for
> EEM.  So, I
> > used the EEM profile to print, and get a warm print in tungsten
> and north
> > light, and very strong magenta cast under fluourescent.  I
> searched for a
> > profile for the scrapbook paper, but could not find one.  Does
> anyone know
> > of one available for this (these) paper(s), or do I need to get a custom
> > profile?  thanks
>
> B&W or colour?

Okay - using the 2200 + Epson Ultrachrome inks you aren't going to get a B&W
profile. You need to either use third party inks or by the IP RIP (but
seeing as this was under the IP heading - and I may have missed a message...
maybe that's what you are doing?)

tim

PS - but for colour it's a great paper. Use the Arches Infinity profile and
setup Relative Colormetric and No Blackpoint - spot on for me