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Newbie post. Recommendation Request.

Newbie post. Recommendation Request.

2003-12-15 by imsireal

I am new to quad tone printing and really don't want to approach it with a great 
investment of my time. I am looking for a simple to set up, but more importantly, 
simple to use quad tone ink system for an Epson 1200. I am a Mac user and am using 
OS X 10.3.

I have been considering the Cone bottle feed system but this is the only system I 
really have seen information on. I would be interested in knowing what other systems 
arre available. I do like the Cone Selenium tone and would be looking for something 
similar.

The end goal is to be able to produce fine art digital b/w prints up to A3+ (13"x19") 
size without too much hassle. I want to sell the prints so they should be archival/
long-lasting and I would like to be able to choose from a wide range of papers.

I would appreciate any advice.

bpm

Re: [Digital BW] Newbie post. Recommendation Request.

2003-12-18 by James Haney

bpm,


You are going to get quite a variety of responses to this one.

I would recommend the Cone PiezoTone Selenium inkset with either the Museum
Black or Portfolio Black based upon your criteria.

1) Simple Setup - 
    Assuming you have a minimal working knowledge of color management (or
are patient at reading the manual). As well, there are quite a few defined
profiles for a wide variety of papers. There are a lot of other ways to skin
this cat that are easy, more flexible, cheaper, etc. but I have been very
happy with my results with Cone. I have been very happy with the "hassel
free" aspects of using Piezography.

2) Very good on-screen to final image match.
This is a great benefit of the new system.

3) The 1200 is a supported printer.



A couple of caveats:

Define "a wide variety of papers" If you are comfortable and familiar with
the current listing of papers profiled for use with PiezoTone inks you
should be well served, however you have a problem if you want to print on an
unsupported paper.

You should make sure you are able to get the results you expect before you
invest in a CIS. I had a CIS, went back to carts to ensure I liked the new
icc based system and am looking to get back into the CIS after the new year.
I produce a pretty steady volume of prints and the CIS with the old inks was
a bit "needy." I am relatively certain that it will be less so with the new
inks. 

The 1200 is getting a little long in the tooth. But hey, I'm using an 1160
and am extremely happy with my PT Selenium prints with Cone's new system.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 12/14/03 6:57 PM, "imsireal" <imsireal@...> wrote:

> I am new to quad tone printing and really don't want to approach it with a
> great 
> investment of my time. I am looking for a simple to set up, but more
> importantly, 
> simple to use quad tone ink system for an Epson 1200. I am a Mac user and am
> using 
> OS X 10.3.
> 
> I have been considering the Cone bottle feed system but this is the only
> system I 
> really have seen information on. I would be interested in knowing what other
> systems 
> arre available. I do like the Cone Selenium tone and would be looking for
> something 
> similar.
> 
> The end goal is to be able to produce fine art digital b/w prints up to A3+
> (13"x19") 
> size without too much hassle. I want to sell the prints so they should be
> archival/
> long-lasting and I would like to be able to choose from a wide range of
> papers.
> 
> I would appreciate any advice.
> 
> bpm
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Converting curves to ICC using DoctorPro?

2003-12-18 by Daniel Staver

I see that ColorVision DoctorPro can be used to save adjustments in
Photoshop into an ICC profile. Has anyone tried this?

I was thinking this could make it possible to convert the existing curve
workflows to ICC profiles, but since you need an existing profile for
the software to modify you would need something like a do-nothing
profile to start with, or the curve would have to be rewritten. Is it
possible to make profiles like that?

It would be nice to use ICC profiles, then you could keep the entire
workflow in grayscale and use any profile-aware software for printing.

Does the licensing of the software allow you to redistribute the
profiles? I couldn't find any info on this on their pages.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Re: [Digital BW] Converting curves to ICC using DoctorPro?

2003-12-18 by Mike Finley

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:49:59 +0100, daniel wrote:

>I see that ColorVision DoctorPro can be used to save adjustments in
>Photoshop into an ICC profile. Has anyone tried this?
>
>I was thinking this could make it possible to convert the existing curve
>workflows to ICC profiles, but since you need an existing profile for
>the software to modify you would need something like a do-nothing
>profile to start with, or the curve would have to be rewritten. Is it
>possible to make profiles like that?
>
>It would be nice to use ICC profiles, then you could keep the entire
>workflow in grayscale and use any profile-aware software for printing.
>
>Does the licensing of the software allow you to redistribute the
>profiles? I couldn't find any info on this on their pages.

Nice idea, but I think the software would have trouble mapping curves
that go up, down and then back up again!

Re: [Digital BW] Converting curves to ICC using DoctorPro?

2003-12-18 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mike Finley
<ekng532@f...> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:49:59 +0100, daniel wrote:
snip...
> >I was thinking this could make it possible to convert the existing
curve
> >workflows to ICC profiles...
sbip...
> Nice idea, but I think the software would have trouble mapping curves
> that go up, down and then back up again!

Actually it works just fine, but the poster is correct that you need
to start from a "do nothing" RGB output profile. These are harder to
come by than one might think. Also, unless it was built from the
inkset/paper you are using it will not preview. There are other tricks
to make it preview but they are complex.
Colorvision does have restrictions about profile distribution, and
would have to be contacted to make special arrangements.
Tyler

RE: [Digital BW] Converting curves to ICC using DoctorPro?

2003-12-18 by Daniel Staver

> Colorvision does have restrictions 
> about profile distribution, and would have to be contacted to 
> make special arrangements.

I was afraid of that. I don't actually own any of this software, but
from the various solutions I was looking at they seemed to be the
closest to what I had in mind. I don't think I'll pursue this further
though, I just thought it would be an interesting idea.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Re: [Digital BW] Converting curves to ICC using DoctorPro?

2003-12-18 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver"
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> > Colorvision does have restrictions 
> > about profile distribution, and would have to be contacted to 
> > make special arrangements.
> 
> I was afraid of that. I don't actually own any of this software, but
> from the various solutions I was looking at they seemed to be the
> closest to what I had in mind. I don't think I'll pursue this further
> though, I just thought it would be an interesting idea.

I've had hints that they may be very easy to deal with in regard to
working out special distribution.
There are other profile editors, one other that works like Doctor Pro
is made by Kodak. It also applies any Photoshop edit to a profile
within Photoshop.
I don't know what distribution restrictions may be involved with it.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Converting curves to ICC using DoctorPro?

2003-12-18 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Tyler Boley wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver"
><daniel@p...> wrote:
>  
>
>>>Colorvision does have restrictions 
>>>about profile distribution, and would have to be contacted to 
>>>make special arrangements.
>>>      
>>>
>>I was afraid of that. I don't actually own any of this software, but
>>from the various solutions I was looking at they seemed to be the
>>closest to what I had in mind. I don't think I'll pursue this further
>>though, I just thought it would be an interesting idea.
>>    
>>
>
>I've had hints that they may be very easy to deal with in regard to
>working out special distribution.
>There are other profile editors, one other that works like Doctor Pro
>is made by Kodak. It also applies any Photoshop edit to a profile
>within Photoshop.
>I don't know what distribution restrictions may be involved with it.
>  
>
Actually, ther is no restriction in what you can do with a profile 
doctored by DoctorPro..  The only restriction is that which would 
already exist regarding the null profile or whatever profile you altered.

For example.. If the original source profile was made with a standard 
license version of Profile Plus or Profiler Pro, you couldn't distribute 
the doctored profile..  If the source profile was public domain or 
licensed for distribution, you could distribute the doctored version freely.

Here it is from "the horse's mouth."


"I'm a little short on info here... but if you are speaking of applying 
Photoshop curves of your choice to an RGB or CMYK profile, then yes, 
DoctorPRO will do that nicely. You do need to have a starting point, so 
a "null" profile would be needed if you did not have a profile that 
described the current state of your device, and "null" profiles are not 
trivial to create; nor as simple as they sound. If you are speaking of 
B&W workflow, where the channels are not RGB or CMYK but "your choice of 
random grays" instead... then building a Color Look Up Table from 
channel curves, and applying it to the inks in your system would be an 
unlikely idea... since it would incorporate certain assumptions about 
the relationship of the channels to one another in building the color 
cube, and those assumptions would not be appropriate to non-colored 
inks. "Keeping the entire workflow in grayscale" pretty much invalidates 
the color cube in an ICC profile, as it would only use values from the 
axis of that cube, in other words it would allocate the distances 
between the points on the black-to-white rod through the middle of the 
globe, not any other points in or on the globe, as it would with actual 
color data... and would only locate a modest number of points on this 
line, for that matter.

As for the licensing agreement: DoctorPRO edits profiles, it does not 
build them, and as such, no limitations are put on the use of the 
resulting profiles, other than those restrictions already on place from 
the profile you started with.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Inc."

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

re: Converting curves to ICC using DoctorPro?

2003-12-18 by bruce greene

Would the "do nothing" profile be the working space profile, such as 
"colormatch rgb"?


On Thursday, December 18, 2003, at 11:36 AM, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Message: 8
>    Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:49:59 +0100
>    From: "Daniel Staver" <daniel@...>
> Subject: Converting curves to ICC using DoctorPro?
>
> I see that ColorVision DoctorPro can be used to save adjustments in
> Photoshop into an ICC profile. Has anyone tried this?
>
> I was thinking this could make it possible to convert the existing 
> curve
> workflows to ICC profiles, but since you need an existing profile for
> the software to modify you would need something like a do-nothing
> profile to start with, or the curve would have to be rewritten. Is it
> possible to make profiles like that?
>
> It would be nice to use ICC profiles, then you could keep the entire
> workflow in grayscale and use any profile-aware software for printing.
>
> Does the licensing of the software allow you to redistribute the
> profiles? I couldn't find any info on this on their pages.
>
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

RE: [Digital BW] re: Converting curves to ICC using DoctorPro?

2003-12-18 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: bruce greene [mailto:bagreene@...]
>
> Would the "do nothing" profile be the working space profile, such as
> "colormatch rgb"?

Printer profiles are normally large profiles with multi-dimensional lookup
tables, while abstract color space profiles are usually just some primary
colors, white and black points, and gamma values. I suspect that in order to
use DoctorPro to edit a profile, you have to start with something that has
lookup tables in it already, and it merely tweaks the values in the table.
Can someone here confirm this?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] re: Converting curves to ICC using DoctorPro?

2003-12-18 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Paul D. DeRocco wrote:

>>From: bruce greene [mailto:bagreene@...]
>>
>>Would the "do nothing" profile be the working space profile, such as
>>"colormatch rgb"?
>>    
>>
>
>Printer profiles are normally large profiles with multi-dimensional lookup
>tables, while abstract color space profiles are usually just some primary
>colors, white and black points, and gamma values. I suspect that in order to
>use DoctorPro to edit a profile, you have to start with something that has
>lookup tables in it already, and it merely tweaks the values in the table.
>Can someone here confirm this?
>  
>
Yes, it needs a LUT..


 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Re: Converting curves to ICC using DoctorPro?

2003-12-20 by Tony Caltabiano

In my deep dark past at one time I had an epson 9000 loaded with
Indelible inks.  I 
did not like the way the colors were printing on ESFA with the paper
setting set to 
that paper type in the epson driver.  I made curves for the yellow
ink, and used doctor 
pro to modify the actual paper setting in the epson driver - so
whenever I went to the 
epson driver and chose that paper type, it would print correctly. 
The epson driver 
settings are great do nothing profiles!

I wrote about it in one of the forums, I think it was the
archivalcolor forum or the 
epsonwideformat forum, check the archives. 

good luck,
Tony

Tony Caltabiano,
Higher Place Studio
www.higherplacestudio.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> I see that ColorVision DoctorPro can be used to save adjustments in
> Photoshop into an ICC profile. Has anyone tried this?
> 
> I was thinking this could make it possible to convert the existing
curve
> workflows to ICC profiles, but since you need an existing profile
for
> the software to modify you would need something like a do-nothing
> profile to start with, or the curve would have to be rewritten. Is
it
> possible to make profiles like that?
> 
> It would be nice to use ICC profiles, then you could keep the entire
> workflow in grayscale and use any profile-aware software for
printing.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Does the licensing of the software allow you to redistribute the
> profiles? I couldn't find any info on this on their pages.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

Re: [Digital BW] Converting curves to ICC using DoctorPro?

2005-02-20 by Ernst Dinkla

Tyler Boley wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver"
> <daniel@p...> wrote:
> 
>>>Colorvision does have restrictions 
>>>about profile distribution, and would have to be contacted to 
>>>make special arrangements.
>>
>>I was afraid of that. I don't actually own any of this software, but
>>from the various solutions I was looking at they seemed to be the
>>closest to what I had in mind. I don't think I'll pursue this further
>>though, I just thought it would be an interesting idea.
> 
> 
> I've had hints that they may be very easy to deal with in regard to
> working out special distribution.
> There are other profile editors, one other that works like Doctor Pro
> is made by Kodak. It also applies any Photoshop edit to a profile
> within Photoshop.
> I don't know what distribution restrictions may be involved with it.
> Tyler

Checking the messages on curves and calibration I came accross 
this message. Since this message is written a new version 
Kodak Custom Color Tools appeared: 3.0. Rev A.  It seems to be 
high on the list of preferred profile editors on the Colorsync 
list like the old one was.

At the Colorsync list they wrote it is only available through 
the Pro Lab License etc of Kodak so not available to everyone. 
Some websites seem to confirm that but I found one site:

http://shop.colourconfidence.com/product.php?xProd=1198&xSec=16

where they must have forgotten that restriction and lost touch 
with pricing too (UK pounds though). There's no mention of the 
Pro Lab License in the docs either. I ordered it immediately 
and received it in 4 days. It is a Dr. Pro at steroids. All 
profile types, many profile brands, it does them all. Plus 
scanner-camera profiling and monitor profile creation. No 
printer profile creation though. Input and output transform 
editing of the appropriate profiles. No need to use the PS 
actions to perform the edit, straight PS conversions on a 
selectable image are applied to the profile in use and saved 
in a new version. A manual that makes ICC profiling much 
easier to understand too. OS-X and Windows in one package.

The license restricts the distribution of profiles to 
customers of the purchaser to get the calibration right for 
the purchasers workflow-printers. There's an optional license 
available that allows more, has to be negotiated as I 
understand it. In the Docs on the CD the license period is 
restricted to one year and should be renewed. But that's not 
in the printed docs in the package nor at the mentioned 
website. So you break the seal of the package and install to 
get that information. BTW, setting the clock in the future 
doesn't influence the program itself it seems. It is a very 
USA based license scheme and EC and Australian law overrules 
it in some aspects as the license itself indicates.

Still don't know what cat in a bag I have but it is at least a 
big cat with a good manual.

Ernst

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