Digital BW, The Print

I'm looking to switch from the MIS VM-sepia to a UT flavor but I'm unclear how warm 
the standard UT mix goes. Is it more like the original VM mix or the VM-Sepia?

If I want a sepia option should I order a sepia ink in lieu of the "stock" toner?

Using Paul's curves with VM-S, a "nuetral" print was obtained using the "warm" print 
(no toner). Is that still true with the UT set or is it more like the original VM that uses 
a middle curve for neutrality? If I went with a sepia version how would I get a neutral 
print?

I'm also confused about the UT-2 option. Am I correct in understanding that this 
inkset gives a broader range than the UT (or UT sepia) because it has two toners? I'm 
wondering if this inkset might not be an interesting option to use with Roy's QTR. 
Anyone tried that? Any reason to think the ink densities of one set (UT vs UT-2) 
should work any better through QTR?

Basically what I'd really like is a set that includes strongish selenium, nuetral, and 
sepia (no need for bluish prints). Or at least neutral and sepia. Given my needs and 
the UT options anyone have any thoughts on what might be the best approach?

I understand that to get selenium and sepia may require two tones, at least one of 
which might need to be custom, but I wonder which inkset and workflow would get 
me there fastest/easiest and which would take me the furthest. (Oh yeah, this for an 
1160 and a 9000)

My suspicion is that QTR is the more versatile driver for multiple printers and toners, 
however my immediate need is for "neutral" prints.

Obviously my head is all over the place on this but I'd like to order the inks before MIS 
goes on holidays later this week, so any advice that may pertain would be much 
appreciated.

Thanks,
Todd

Hi Todd,

>... unclear how warm the standard UT mix goes. Is it more like 
>the original VM mix or the VM-Sepia?

The raw carbon ink of the UT ink mix is much like the old quads once they
warmed up.  To put some (approximate X-Rite Y minus C readings -- from
memory) numbers to the warmth, the VM warm was about 0.06.  The UT warm is
about 0.10 - 0.11.  The light sepia I prefer is 0.20.  The full sepia that
Getty used for the Gustave Le Gray reproduction is 0.25.  The VM-S and UT-2
can print this full sepia tone.

So, the UT warm is notably warmer than the VM warm prior to it warming
totally from sun, but it is only about half way to sepia.

>If I want a sepia option should I order a sepia ink in lieu of the "stock"
>toner?

The UT version that I've made that will do sepia is the UT-2 mix.  It's a
dual toner inkset that has a sepia toner.  It's targeted at the 1280 only
right now.  It won't run on quads at all, and the older hextones will
probably show dots with it.

>Using Paul's curves with VM-S, a "nuetral" print was obtained 
>using the "warm" print (no toner). Is that still true with the 
>UT set or is it more like the original VM that uses 
>a middle curve for neutrality?

The UT inkset is an upgrade of the VM inkset.  It works just like the MIS VM
inkset, not like the VM-S inkset.

> If I went with a sepia version how would I get a neutral print?

I have made no separate, specific UT-S inkset.  The UT-2 does the sepia.

I made a toner for the Bowhaus system that takes the warm, carbon gray to
sepia, but without more it will not print a neutral tone.

There will be a UT-FSN soon.  That ink plus a sepia toner could make a UT-S
inkset.  However, the light gray ink would have to be custom mixed, and one
would have to make new curves for it.  I don't think I'll get around to
making such an inkset.

>I'm also confused about the UT-2 option. Am I correct in understanding 
>that this inkset gives a broader range than the UT (or UT sepia) because 
>it has two toners?

Yes.  UT-2 is a 2-toner inkset for modern hextone or better printers only.

>I'm wondering if this inkset might not be an interesting option to 
>use with Roy's QTR. 

Roy will have to answer this one.

>Basically what I'd really like is a set that includes strongish 
>selenium, nuetral, and sepia (no need for bluish prints). ...

The neutral in UT and UT-2 is what I call a neutral/"selenium".  It has the
magenta channel about 0.01 higher than the C&Y channels in the midtones.
With some papers the shadow magenta/"selenium" tone gets stronger.  But, I
would not call it a "strong" selenium tone that is in these mixes.

The UT-2 does neutral though sepia on the 1280.  (You're old 1160 is getting
a bit outdated.  Mine is in a back room and seldom used any more.)

>Oh yeah, this for an 1160 and a 9000

Sorry Todd, the older machines really can't handle the UT-2.  It requires
small/variable dot technology and hextones.  I probably will not load the
UT-2 onto my 7500.  

I'm targeting the 4000 as the do-it-all 16x20 printer.  My 7500 will
probably stay with the UT inks for larger matte prints only.  Those big 8 or
10 (?) picoliter dots and the hassle of changing back and forth between
photo and matte blacks is limiting the old printers.  (I'll bet there are
going to be a lot of unhappy 7600/9600 owners when Epson releases the
7xxx/9xxx series with the extra black cart and new head.)

Good luck in your search.  Sorry I don't have a UT-S for you.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> 
> The UT inkset is an upgrade of the VM inkset.  It works just like the MIS VM
> inkset, not like the VM-S inkset.

Thanks for all your answers, Paul. I'll probably start with the UT set and
think to customize.

One more question, for the hex printers does the UT set use 5 different gray
density inks and one toner? Or is it more of a quadtone system (3 grays and
a toner)?

Thanks,
Todd

Todd,

>... for the hex printers does the UT set use 5 different gray
>density inks and one toner? Or is it more of a quadtone system 
>(3 grays and a toner)?

The UT hex (like the VM hex) uses toner in the magenta and light magenta
spots.  The cyan and light cyan are gray, as is the yellow.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Todd,

>... I'll probably start with the UT set and think to customize.

If you wanted to make a dual-toner inkset for the 9000, I'd probably see if
the UT cyan could be matched with the UT-FS-Warm magenta in the light cyan
spot.  I'm not sure if MIS has mixed any of this yet or not.  

I think the UT Y (lightest gray) is too light to hide the cyan (dark gray)
dots.  The current UT light cyan, however, is too dark to be acceptable in
the highlights.  The Piezo/FS density magenta seems like a reasonable
compromise.

Then I'd use the UT cool toner as is in the magenta spots.  I mixed a light
sepia toner for the Bowhaus 2200 system that would be appropriate for the
yellow spot.  

The only real question would be whether the cyan/light cyan (FS/Piezo
density) would give acceptable dots with the 9000.  It would be a compromise
both at the very lightest end and where the dark gray inks start.  However,
the Epson dither does a good job with these cross-overs, so it might be
fine.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Todd,
> 
> >... I'll probably start with the UT set and think to customize.
> 
> If you wanted to make a dual-toner inkset for the 9000, I'd probably see if
> the UT cyan could be matched with the UT-FS-Warm magenta in the light cyan
> spot.  I'm not sure if MIS has mixed any of this yet or not.  
> 
> I think the UT Y (lightest gray) is too light to hide the cyan (dark gray)
> dots.  The current UT light cyan, however, is too dark to be acceptable in
> the highlights.  The Piezo/FS density magenta seems like a reasonable
> compromise.
> 
> Then I'd use the UT cool toner as is in the magenta spots.  I mixed a light
> sepia toner for the Bowhaus 2200 system that would be appropriate for the
> yellow spot.  
> 
> The only real question would be whether the cyan/light cyan (FS/Piezo
> density) would give acceptable dots with the 9000.  It would be a compromise
> both at the very lightest end and where the dark gray inks start.  However,
> the Epson dither does a good job with these cross-overs, so it might be
> fine.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Todd,

Paul has given a pretty good rundown of the UT and UT-2 inks in terms
of color expectations.  I think right this moment if you want off-the-shelf
inks for the 7500, the UT's are the only game in town.  The thing you
give up is a real sepia - you get a pure carbon warm thru neutral but that is it.
The trouble with UT-2 and the 7500 is that there aren't enough gray inks
to make it reasonably dotless.  If you are willing to mix and load your
own cartridges and use QTR I think you can manage something similar
to what Paul is getting with UT-2 on the 1280.  With the 7500 and its
big dots the number of grays and their density is more critical than most
printers.  I've been thinking of doing something similar with my 7500 but
haven't loaded any inks yet.

This is my best guess as an inkset that is UT-2ish (a little like the special 2200).
K = UT-K  (eboni or photo)
C = UT-C
M = mix UT-LC 50%, UT-Y 50%
Y = UT-Y
LC = UT-M the blue toner
LM = UT-2  the sepia (I'm not sure which ink)

MIS is now selling ink for the 2200 in 4oz bottles:
http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/cfs_2200_new.html
This is almost the right thing.  The middle gray ink is the only problem.
As Paul mentioned the current UT-LC is fairly dark, I assume this is what
is also the "50% K" on the 2200 page.  So I'd get an extra Y (25%K) and
cut the middle gray 50/50.  

This is a little complicated but loading the big carts isn't too bad.  It
would involve making curves for QTR.  

Roy
www.harrington.com