Digital BW, The Print

I'm using the same setup as yours with the "universal black", and I'm very happy with the results..especially with Epson's"matte" or "lustre"  finished papers..I'm sure you would have much better results on "glossy" with thier "PK" type black, but you would lose lots of D-Max on your Matte finished papers..The same issues exist with Epson's own "Ultrachrome", but they don't even offer a "universal" black.....I guess you can't have your "K"ake and eat it too!!

Eddie Wiseman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: chaofeng 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 3:39 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Black Ink Problem Using MIS GP Ink


  I found people in this group are very knowledgeable on MIS products. 
  So I'd like to ask your advice on the problem I experienced when use 
  MIS GP black ink. I ordered the GP ink cartridge for my epson 1280 
  recently. I got good results on matt paper but had bad results when 
  printing on glossy paper (epson premium glossy, luster and permajet 
  oyster paper). On those glossy-based prints, when I tilt the print, I 
  can see the reflection of the black portions are so odd that they 
  dont' seem to be part of the print. In other words, all other colors 
  are melted naturally into the paper but the black portions are like 
  something that are separately patched on and not the integral to the 
  whole print. I was wondering if this is so called "solarizing 
  effect". Any of you have used MIS GP inks? What are your 
  experiences, particularly for printing on glossy paper? MIS claims 
  that the black ink in the cartridge is Universal Black that works on 
  both glossy and matte. But my result is clearly unsatisfactory. 
  Should I use their Photo Black (PK) instead? If so, will I have good 
  results for matte printing?

  Thanks.





  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
      
    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

chaofeng wrote:

>Thanks for sharing your experience. Do you use the cartridge ink or 
>the CFS ink? MIS has one web page saying the cartridge black ink is 
>universal black, but another web page saying it's black for matte 
>only. Obviously if you order CFS ink, there are clear labels to tell 
>you if the black is PK (Photo Black), or MK (Universal Black) or K 
>(Matte Eboni Black). 
>
>Don't know if they send me the wrong fill of the black in the 
>cartridge.
>  
>

Yes, there are three different MIS GP Black Inks..

K - Eboni Matte Black - Pure Pigment - Bronzing on Glossy/RC Papers - 
Meant for Matte Paper ONLY

PK -Photo Black - Pure Pigment - Significantly Reduced dMax on Matte 
Papers - Meant for Glossy/Luster Papers ONLY

MK - Universal Black - Hybrid dye & Pigment - Works on Glossy OR Matte 
Papers _ Has reduced printlife by virtue of the dye component

1280 Cartridges (ARC-T007-UTK 
<http://www.inksupply.com/additem.cfm?itemid=ARC-T007-UTK> or 
ARC-T007-UPK <http://www.inksupply.com/additem.cfm?itemid=ARC-T007-UPK> 
) are by default, unless special ordered, filled with the Eboni Matte 
Black or the Photo Black.  The "U" in the product designation is NOT an 
indication that this is a Universal Black Cartridge..  A Universal Black 
cartridge would be designated "ARC-T007-UMK"

If you go to the MIS page at:
<http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/ultratone.html>

and click on the 1280 Black cartridges, you will see that they are 
pre-filled with either the  Eboni Matte Black or the Photo Black.. A 
Universal Black Cartridge for the 1280 would be a special order item..


 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

The standard MIS GP black for 1270/1280 cartridges was,  AFAIK, the same 
as the Eboni Black.. although, I do see where on another page 
<http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/arcgpcarts.html> they 
say the standard black with the GP Inks is the Universal Matte Black.. 
aggghghh!

They really need to standardize the part numbers to eliminate 
confusion.. You're not the ONLY one going through this, my head is 
beginning to hurt whenever I start ordering pre-filled black 
cartridges.. They even say on the GP page to pay close attention to the 
lettering of the black cartridges, but then go on to not use that 
lettering system for the pre-filled 1280 series GP cartridges... sheesh!

I would really prefer that they simply use the same part number and 
lettering system for all the UT/GP blacks..

In any case,  the photo black cartridges should work best on 
Glossy/Luster papers..

In any event, we now see what Paul was indicating about them needing to 
consolidate offerings and (IMHO) standardize the product SKU numbers..

You may well have gotten Universal Black in the cartridges, although the 
bronzing would indicate elsewise.  The best thing is to call MIS 
directly and sort this all out..

I've also got some MIS GP K cartridges ready to go..  It'll be 
interesting to see which black they are, as I already have the UT K and PK.

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Thanks for sharing your experience. Do you use the cartridge ink or 
the CFS ink? MIS has one web page saying the cartridge black ink is 
universal black, but another web page saying it's black for matte 
only. Obviously if you order CFS ink, there are clear labels to tell 
you if the black is PK (Photo Black), or MK (Universal Black) or K 
(Matte Eboni Black). 

Don't know if they send me the wrong fill of the black in the 
cartridge.

chao


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Edward Wiseman" 
<pahts@c...> wrote:
> I'm using the same setup as yours with the "universal black", and 
I'm very happy with the results..especially with Epson's"matte" 
or "lustre"  finished papers..I'm sure you would have much better 
results on "glossy" with thier "PK" type black, but you would lose 
lots of D-Max on your Matte finished papers..The same issues exist 
with Epson's own "Ultrachrome", but they don't even offer 
a "universal" black.....I guess you can't have your "K"ake and eat it 
too!!
> 
> Eddie Wiseman
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: chaofeng 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 3:39 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Black Ink Problem Using MIS GP Ink
> 
> 
>   I found people in this group are very knowledgeable on MIS 
products. 
>   So I'd like to ask your advice on the problem I experienced when 
use 
>   MIS GP black ink. I ordered the GP ink cartridge for my epson 
1280 
>   recently. I got good results on matt paper but had bad results 
when 
>   printing on glossy paper (epson premium glossy, luster and 
permajet 
>   oyster paper). On those glossy-based prints, when I tilt the 
print, I 
>   can see the reflection of the black portions are so odd that they 
>   dont' seem to be part of the print. In other words, all other 
colors 
>   are melted naturally into the paper but the black portions are 
like 
>   something that are separately patched on and not the integral to 
the 
>   whole print. I was wondering if this is so called "solarizing 
>   effect". Any of you have used MIS GP inks? What are your 
>   experiences, particularly for printing on glossy paper? MIS 
claims 
>   that the black ink in the cartridge is Universal Black that works 
on 
>   both glossy and matte. But my result is clearly unsatisfactory. 
>   Should I use their Photo Black (PK) instead? If so, will I have 
good 
>   results for matte printing?
> 
>   Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from the membership without notice.
>   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may 
be removed from the membership.
>   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" 
in the Files section:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
>   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT 
LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF 
SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
>       
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

While MIS is still enjoying the long holidays (they are closed until
Jan. 5), there are people like you trying to help me for MIS
problems. Great thanks!

I'll call MIS on Monday to sort this puzzle out. If my cartridge is
Universal Black, then my last hope is PK and I hope they have a
cartridge version for me to try before I commite to the CFS.

Will let you know what I find out.

Thanks again.

chao




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. 
Image Service" <editor@p...> wrote:
> The standard MIS GP black for 1270/1280 cartridges was,  AFAIK, the 
same 
> as the Eboni Black.. although, I do see where on another page 
> <http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/arcgpcarts.html> 
they 
> say the standard black with the GP Inks is the Universal Matte 
Black.. 
> aggghghh!
> 
> They really need to standardize the part numbers to eliminate 
> confusion.. You're not the ONLY one going through this, my head is 
> beginning to hurt whenever I start ordering pre-filled black 
> cartridges.. They even say on the GP page to pay close attention to 
the 
> lettering of the black cartridges, but then go on to not use that 
> lettering system for the pre-filled 1280 series GP cartridges... 
sheesh!
> 
> I would really prefer that they simply use the same part number and 
> lettering system for all the UT/GP blacks..
> 
> In any case,  the photo black cartridges should work best on 
> Glossy/Luster papers..
> 
> In any event, we now see what Paul was indicating about them 
needing to 
> consolidate offerings and (IMHO) standardize the product SKU 
numbers..
> 
> You may well have gotten Universal Black in the cartridges, 
although the 
> bronzing would indicate elsewise.  The best thing is to call MIS 
> directly and sort this all out..
> 
> I've also got some MIS GP K cartridges ready to go..  It'll be 
> interesting to see which black they are, as I already have the UT K 
and PK.
> 
>  
> Keith Krebs
> 
> "Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON 
printer 
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
> Publications), at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
> and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks 
together 
> guys"

At 07:13 PM 1/2/04 -0500, you wrote:


Guys,

It would be good to have a cross-reference chart for the MIS blacks and 
tints that are the same.  Has anyone seen a durability estimate for their 
pig/dye black?  I've asked this before without a response - how much do 
sprays help increase fade-resistance of dye inks? Oh yea, what about the 
MIS sepia ink?  Is it a pure pigment or a tint made with the archival 
colored pigs?

AZ

>The standard MIS GP black for 1270/1280 cartridges was,  AFAIK, the same
>as the Eboni Black.. although, I do see where on another page
><http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/arcgpcarts.html> they
>say the standard black with the GP Inks is the Universal Matte Black..
>aggghghh!
>
>They really need to standardize the part numbers to eliminate
>confusion.. You're not the ONLY one going through this, my head is
>beginning to hurt whenever I start ordering pre-filled black
>cartridges.. They even say on the GP page to pay close attention to the
>lettering of the black cartridges, but then go on to not use that
>lettering system for the pre-filled 1280 series GP cartridges... sheesh!
>
>I would really prefer that they simply use the same part number and
>lettering system for all the UT/GP blacks..
>
>In any case,  the photo black cartridges should work best on
>Glossy/Luster papers..
>
>In any event, we now see what Paul was indicating about them needing to
>consolidate offerings and (IMHO) standardize the product SKU numbers..
>
>You may well have gotten Universal Black in the cartridges, although the
>bronzing would indicate elsewise.  The best thing is to call MIS
>directly and sort this all out..
>
>I've also got some MIS GP K cartridges ready to go..  It'll be
>interesting to see which black they are, as I already have the UT K and PK.
>
>
>Keith Krebs
>
>"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer
>User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo
>Publications), at:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
>and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
>"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together
>guys"
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
>they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
>them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner 
>and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
>"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO 
>YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
>EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
>PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
>THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE 
>BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE 
>USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) 
>UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) 
>STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
>YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us

Alan,

>... Has anyone seen a durability estimate for [MIS] pig/dye black? 

No, but I don't trust any dye.  My bottles of MIS black dyes and Media
Street's hybrid black collapse onto themselves in my darkroom storage as the
oxygen is sucked out of the air in the bottles by the fast oxidation of the
dyes.  These are not stable products.

>... what about the MIS sepia ink?  Is it a pure pigment or a tint 
>made with the archival colored pigs?

It's a tint made with color pigs added to carbon.  The UT2 sepia ink is 84%
UT2 light magenta ( magenta is the un-toned ink "color" position in the UT2
inkset), 8% MIS 7600 Y and 8% MIS 7600 M.  It can carry the entire print all
the way to 50% (no other inks) and make very nice dark sepia print that is
very close to the tone of the Getty's Gustave Le Gray historic prints (what
I used as a model this time).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I called MIS tech support today. They insisted that the cartridge I 
got is universal black and should work for both matte and glossy 
papers. They allow me to exchange for PK black. Keith, you are right. 
The UPK from the Ultra-Tone category is interchangeable for the GP 
black ink. At this point, I have to conclude that the universal black 
is not a satisfactory compromise to glossy paper. Will see how well 
the UPK ink will do on the luster paper and will update in this 
newsgroup.

chao


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chaofeng" 
<twohorses123@h...> wrote:
> While MIS is still enjoying the long holidays (they are closed until
> Jan. 5), there are people like you trying to help me for MIS
> problems. Great thanks!
> 
> I'll call MIS on Monday to sort this puzzle out. If my cartridge is
> Universal Black, then my last hope is PK and I hope they have a
> cartridge version for me to try before I commite to the CFS.
> 
> Will let you know what I find out.
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> chao
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. 
> Image Service" <editor@p...> wrote:
> > The standard MIS GP black for 1270/1280 cartridges was,  AFAIK, 
the 
> same 
> > as the Eboni Black.. although, I do see where on another page 
> > <http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/arcgpcarts.html> 
> they 
> > say the standard black with the GP Inks is the Universal Matte 
> Black.. 
> > aggghghh!
> > 
> > They really need to standardize the part numbers to eliminate 
> > confusion.. You're not the ONLY one going through this, my head 
is 
> > beginning to hurt whenever I start ordering pre-filled black 
> > cartridges.. They even say on the GP page to pay close attention 
to 
> the 
> > lettering of the black cartridges, but then go on to not use that 
> > lettering system for the pre-filled 1280 series GP cartridges... 
> sheesh!
> > 
> > I would really prefer that they simply use the same part number 
and 
> > lettering system for all the UT/GP blacks..
> > 
> > In any case,  the photo black cartridges should work best on 
> > Glossy/Luster papers..
> > 
> > In any event, we now see what Paul was indicating about them 
> needing to 
> > consolidate offerings and (IMHO) standardize the product SKU 
> numbers..
> > 
> > You may well have gotten Universal Black in the cartridges, 
> although the 
> > bronzing would indicate elsewise.  The best thing is to call MIS 
> > directly and sort this all out..
> > 
> > I've also got some MIS GP K cartridges ready to go..  It'll be 
> > interesting to see which black they are, as I already have the UT 
K 

> and PK.
> > 
> >  
> > Keith Krebs
> > 
> > "Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON 
> printer 
> > User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
> > Publications), at:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
> > and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
> > "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks 
> together 
> > guys"