Digital BW, The Print

Shaun, as someone who has just seen the difference between piezo and FIS can
you describe the two. I don't like the 'blueness' I've ssen of MIS - how
would you describe FIS?

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Granleese" <shaun@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 7:02 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Print Exchange 4 Bernd et al.


> The mafia weren't interested so I set up a table at a flea market...
>
> Here's all the news that's fit to print regarding the ongoing
> exchange:
>
> - Wow! Nice work all.
> - Bernd's incredible comparison of Cone vs. MIS FS inks via the
> PiezoBW driver is eye-opening and has changed my purchase plans.
> - We have 27 out of 32 packages in my hands (the 32nd is the set I
> made).
> - Everyone still to come in is in transit or has alerted me to the
> schedule (a few days at most).
> - We had one graceful exit and one participant who didn't respond to
> ANY of my messages, my irritation has changed to concern to be honest.
> - Both of these exits have been replaced with ultra-keen last minute
> participants, I thought it preferable to wait a few days and fill the
> roster than to ship everyone back a couple of their own prints. In
> fact, both of the replacements will likely have their prints in
> before the last couple of "stragglers" ;-)
> - I hope to begin shipping back in a week to 10 days. I will repost
> when I finish the collation.
> - Did I mention that I'm floored by everyones work?
>
>
> Shaun Granleese
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., " Ruhrfoto/Bernd L."
> >
> > Sorry, Shaun,
> > this was for Shaun Granleese, who was the moderator of the
> > ongoing print exchange. I really fear he went underground with
> > all these (roundabout 900) fine art prints we sent him. Probably
> > he is selleing them to the Mafia.
> > Bernd ;-)
> >
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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>
>
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>
>
>

Shaun, are the MIS FS inks waterproof?  I liked the Lincoln inks a lot,
but they ran like crazy if you got even so much as one drop of water on
the prints.  Beautiful tones though.

Jer

Shaun Granleese wrote:

> 
> The mafia weren't interested so I set up a table at a flea market...
> 
> Here's all the news that's fit to print regarding the ongoing
> exchange:
> 
> - Wow! Nice work all.
> - Bernd's incredible comparison of Cone vs. MIS FS inks via the
> PiezoBW driver is eye-opening and has changed my purchase plans.
> - We have 27 out of 32 packages in my hands (the 32nd is the set I
> made).
> - Everyone still to come in is in transit or has alerted me to the
> schedule (a few days at most).
> - We had one graceful exit and one participant who didn't respond to
> ANY of my messages, my irritation has changed to concern to be honest.
> - Both of these exits have been replaced with ultra-keen last minute
> participants, I thought it preferable to wait a few days and fill the
> roster than to ship everyone back a couple of their own prints. In
> fact, both of the replacements will likely have their prints in
> before the last couple of "stragglers" ;-)
> - I hope to begin shipping back in a week to 10 days. I will repost
> when I finish the collation.
> - Did I mention that I'm floored by everyones work?
> 
> Shaun Granleese
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., " Ruhrfoto/Bernd L."
> >
> > Sorry, Shaun,
> > this was for Shaun Granleese, who was the moderator of the
> > ongoing print exchange. I really fear he went underground with
> > all these (roundabout 900) fine art prints we sent him. Probably
> > he is selleing them to the Mafia.
> > Bernd ;-)
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Julian - this assessment is based on evaluation by myself and my wife 
(she's a big time PiezoBW user and fan) under incandescent light of 
the same image printed on one half (top or bottom) of the same piece 
of EAM by two different Epson 1160's (one dedicated to each ink 
obviously). 

Conclusion: practically indistinguishable in tone and colour, 
sharpness, contrast, smoothness or any other variable we could think 
of to concentrate on. We both preferred the MIS FS actually. 
Confounding factors: incandescent light was used, it was midnight, 
I'm not the guru some of you are, I'd love to pay less for my ink and 
might be biased :-)

Bottom line = I was very impressed.

Since Bernd printed 31 of these comparisons, y'all will have a chance 
to make the same evaluation.

Shaun Granleese


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Shaun, as someone who has just seen the difference between piezo 
and FIS can
> you describe the two. I don't like the 'blueness' I've ssen of MIS -
 how
> would you describe FIS?
>

Jerry - unknown, intuitively I would expect they are the same as 
Piezo inks. I will take your comparison print from Bernd and soak it 
tonight.

Just kidding.


Shaun


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Shaun, are the MIS FS inks waterproof?  I liked the Lincoln inks a 
lot,
> but they ran like crazy if you got even so much as one drop of 
water on

> the prints.  Beautiful tones though.
> 
> Jer
>

More specifically, I used tungsten light and didn't use a loupe.

S 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Shaun Granleese" 
<shaun@s...> wrote:
> Julian - this assessment is based on evaluation by myself and my 
wife 
> (she's a big time PiezoBW user and fan) under incandescent light of 
> the same image printed on one half (top or bottom) of the same 
piece

How do they differ from the VM inkset? the Standard inkset?

Why does MIS make so *_)(&**^%&#+ MANY different black inksets?

Jerry




Shaun Granleese wrote:

> 
> Jerry - unknown, intuitively I would expect they are the same as
> Piezo inks. I will take your comparison print from Bernd and soak it
> tonight.
> 
> Just kidding.
> 
> Shaun
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > Shaun, are the MIS FS inks waterproof?  I liked the Lincoln inks a
> lot,
> > but they ran like crazy if you got even so much as one drop of
> water on
> > the prints.  Beautiful tones though.
> >
> > Jer
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Shaun Granleese" 
<shaun@s...> wrote:
> Julian - this assessment is based on evaluation by myself and my 
wife 
> (she's a big time PiezoBW user and fan) under incandescent light of 
> the same image printed on one half (top or bottom) of the same 
piece 
> of EAM by two different Epson 1160's (one dedicated to each ink 
> obviously). 
> 
> Conclusion: practically indistinguishable in tone and colour, 
> sharpness, contrast, smoothness or any other variable we could 
think 
> of to concentrate on. We both preferred the MIS FS actually. 
> Confounding factors: incandescent light was used, it was midnight, 
> I'm not the guru some of you are, I'd love to pay less for my ink 
and 
> might be biased :-)
> 
> Bottom line = I was very impressed.

Julian,

I have some of Bernd's prints covering the same range of ink and 
driver options and I agree with all Shaun has to say above. I will 
add that the MIS FS are not going to print exactly like the Piezo 
inks. The process may involve some different adjustment to your files 
prior to printing. The final results may not be absolutely identical 
but what they show is that all three options are fully viable ways to 
make a top quality inkjet print.

Martin Wesley

(snip)> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > Shaun, as someone who has just seen the difference between piezo 
> and FIS can
> > you describe the two. I don't like the 'blueness' I've ssen of 
MIS -

>  how
> > would you describe FIS?
> >

Thanks Martin, when my currentpiezo stocks run out I'll try it (Unless JC
brings theprice of inksdown!) - it'll need more tweaking though? More paper!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 4:22 AM
Subject: MIS FS, Piezo Quality was [Digital BW] Re: Print Exchange 4 Bernd
et al.


>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Shaun Granleese"
> <shaun@s...> wrote:
> > Julian - this assessment is based on evaluation by myself and my
> wife
> > (she's a big time PiezoBW user and fan) under incandescent light of
> > the same image printed on one half (top or bottom) of the same
> piece
> > of EAM by two different Epson 1160's (one dedicated to each ink
> > obviously).
> >
> > Conclusion: practically indistinguishable in tone and colour,
> > sharpness, contrast, smoothness or any other variable we could
> think
> > of to concentrate on. We both preferred the MIS FS actually.
> > Confounding factors: incandescent light was used, it was midnight,
> > I'm not the guru some of you are, I'd love to pay less for my ink
> and
> > might be biased :-)
> >
> > Bottom line = I was very impressed.
>
> Julian,
>
> I have some of Bernd's prints covering the same range of ink and
> driver options and I agree with all Shaun has to say above. I will
> add that the MIS FS are not going to print exactly like the Piezo
> inks. The process may involve some different adjustment to your files
> prior to printing. The final results may not be absolutely identical
> but what they show is that all three options are fully viable ways to
> make a top quality inkjet print.
>
> Martin Wesley
>
> (snip)>
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> > <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > Shaun, as someone who has just seen the difference between piezo
> > and FIS can
> > > you describe the two. I don't like the 'blueness' I've ssen of
> MIS -
> >  how
> > > would you describe FIS?
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Julian,

Before you run out of the Piezo inks you might want to print some 21-
step wedges using the profiles and papers you are most likely to be 
using. When you convert to the FS inks print these wedges again and 
compare. If you don't have a good match to the Piezo inks, try 
adjusting the dot density and gamma in the Piezo drive to see if you 
can get a match.

Another approach would be to work out a universal curve that you 
could apply to your images before you go to the Piezo driver to get a 
match.

Alternately you could and probably should do a new Custom Grayscale 
curve in the Color Settings of Photoshop using a wedge printed with 
FS inks. That alone might do the trick. Save the Piezo curve in case 
you decide to switch back.

I think if you do some calibration work up front you should be able 
to operate as normal once you have adjusted for the differences. 

Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Thanks Martin, when my currentpiezo stocks run out I'll try it 
(Unless JC
> brings theprice of inksdown!) - it'll need more tweaking though? 
More paper!
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 4:22 AM
> Subject: MIS FS, Piezo Quality was [Digital BW] Re: Print Exchange 
4 Bernd
> et al.
> 
> 
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Shaun Granleese"
> > <shaun@s...> wrote:
> > > Julian - this assessment is based on evaluation by myself and my
> > wife
> > > (she's a big time PiezoBW user and fan) under incandescent 
light of
> > > the same image printed on one half (top or bottom) of the same
> > piece
> > > of EAM by two different Epson 1160's (one dedicated to each ink
> > > obviously).
> > >
> > > Conclusion: practically indistinguishable in tone and colour,
> > > sharpness, contrast, smoothness or any other variable we could
> > think
> > > of to concentrate on. We both preferred the MIS FS actually.
> > > Confounding factors: incandescent light was used, it was 
midnight,
> > > I'm not the guru some of you are, I'd love to pay less for my 
ink
> > and
> > > might be biased :-)
> > >
> > > Bottom line = I was very impressed.
> >
> > Julian,
> >
> > I have some of Bernd's prints covering the same range of ink and
> > driver options and I agree with all Shaun has to say above. I will
> > add that the MIS FS are not going to print exactly like the Piezo
> > inks. The process may involve some different adjustment to your 
files
> > prior to printing. The final results may not be absolutely 
identical
> > but what they show is that all three options are fully viable 
ways to
> > make a top quality inkjet print.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> >
> > (snip)>
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> > > <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > > Shaun, as someone who has just seen the difference between 
piezo
> > > and FIS can
> > > > you describe the two. I don't like the 'blueness' I've ssen of
> > MIS -
> > >  how
> > > > would you describe FIS?
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

Good thinking martin. I've got a set and a half of piezo left, so maybe by
that time JC will have brought his prices down!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:46 PM
Subject: MIS FS, Piezo Quality was [Digital BW] Re: Print Exchange 4 Bernd
et al.


> Julian,
>
> Before you run out of the Piezo inks you might want to print some 21-
> step wedges using the profiles and papers you are most likely to be
> using. When you convert to the FS inks print these wedges again and
> compare. If you don't have a good match to the Piezo inks, try
> adjusting the dot density and gamma in the Piezo drive to see if you
> can get a match.
>
> Another approach would be to work out a universal curve that you
> could apply to your images before you go to the Piezo driver to get a
> match.
>
> Alternately you could and probably should do a new Custom Grayscale
> curve in the Color Settings of Photoshop using a wedge printed with
> FS inks. That alone might do the trick. Save the Piezo curve in case
> you decide to switch back.
>
> I think if you do some calibration work up front you should be able
> to operate as normal once you have adjusted for the differences.
>
> Martin Wesley
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > Thanks Martin, when my currentpiezo stocks run out I'll try it
> (Unless JC
> > brings theprice of inksdown!) - it'll need more tweaking though?
> More paper!
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 4:22 AM
> > Subject: MIS FS, Piezo Quality was [Digital BW] Re: Print Exchange
> 4 Bernd
> > et al.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Shaun Granleese"
> > > <shaun@s...> wrote:
> > > > Julian - this assessment is based on evaluation by myself and my
> > > wife
> > > > (she's a big time PiezoBW user and fan) under incandescent
> light of
> > > > the same image printed on one half (top or bottom) of the same
> > > piece
> > > > of EAM by two different Epson 1160's (one dedicated to each ink
> > > > obviously).
> > > >
> > > > Conclusion: practically indistinguishable in tone and colour,
> > > > sharpness, contrast, smoothness or any other variable we could
> > > think
> > > > of to concentrate on. We both preferred the MIS FS actually.
> > > > Confounding factors: incandescent light was used, it was
> midnight,
> > > > I'm not the guru some of you are, I'd love to pay less for my
> ink
> > > and
> > > > might be biased :-)
> > > >
> > > > Bottom line = I was very impressed.
> > >
> > > Julian,
> > >
> > > I have some of Bernd's prints covering the same range of ink and
> > > driver options and I agree with all Shaun has to say above. I will
> > > add that the MIS FS are not going to print exactly like the Piezo
> > > inks. The process may involve some different adjustment to your
> files
> > > prior to printing. The final results may not be absolutely
> identical
> > > but what they show is that all three options are fully viable
> ways to
> > > make a top quality inkjet print.
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley
> > >
> > > (snip)>
> > > >
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> > > > <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > > > Shaun, as someone who has just seen the difference between
> piezo
> > > > and FIS can
> > > > > you describe the two. I don't like the 'blueness' I've ssen of
> > > MIS -
> > > >  how
> > > > > would you describe FIS?
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
> or "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:

> Alternately you could and probably should do a new Custom 
Grayscale 
> curve in the Color Settings of Photoshop using a wedge 
printed with 
> FS inks. That alone might do the trick. Save the Piezo curve in 
case 
> you decide to switch back.

Bingo !!!!
Do it  and then print some images. They will lead you to some 
further minor corrections of the saved curve.
Nothing more to do.
Bernd