Digital BW, The Print

Time for a real digital B&W issue.

My mom is outgrowing her Lexmark Z51.  She's been printing photos for 
her classes and Botany Club (she teaches) all of a sudden (wonder where 
she got that idea?).

I want to get an HP for her as I want something she can also print B&Ws 
from.  She prints only from the computer, so the LCD on the 7760 and the 
7960 is pointless.

So, the choice is down (I think) to an HP PhotoSmart 7660 :

1)   How do the B&W prints from the #59 cartridge compare to other B&W 
prints regarding issues of neutral hues and metamerism?

2)   Is there a significant advantage in having the 7 or 8 inks 
installed at all times (as they are in the 7760 and 7960  respectively) 
instead of swapping them into and out of the 7660?

3)    Does anyone know if all 8 colors are used by the 7960, or all 7 by 
the 7760, when printing photos?
-- 

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

I just went through this.  If you are mainly interested in b&w you 
might as well go with the 7660.  It uses the same inks, nozzles (of 
course) and driver (that from HP which counters at least what is on 
one independant website).  The 7960 does use 8 colors for color 
images and thus gives you a wider gamut of colors.  I have the 7660 
and for snap shots the color looks really good, beating one hour 
digital or film output so my family is thilled (after years of b&w 
only they finally feel like we joined the real world).  The swapping 
part is almost trivial since hp put a place for the odd cart out.  
The printer seems pretty cheezy, but it seems to work fine... just 
don't want to snap off any of the flimsy plastic parts on the paper 
tray!  I think you'll be happy with any of them.

The b&w prints are pretty much neutral and there is zero 
metamorism... nothing to complain about, but I'd prefer a warmer tone 
myself.  If this stuff took off you could imagine #59w, #59mw, #59n 
and #59c... well, you can dream right? :)  I was asking about how 
popular it was at CompUSA and they looked at the computer when I was 
buying my #59 cart and they told me that it was only the 6th one they 
had sold all year... guess they aren't hot items, though HP must 
think it is a big deal because they have the b&w capability featured 
heavily in the store displays.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. 
Image Service" <editor@p...> wrote:
> Time for a real digital B&W issue.
> 
> My mom is outgrowing her Lexmark Z51.  She's been printing photos 
for 
> her classes and Botany Club (she teaches) all of a sudden (wonder 
where 
> she got that idea?).
> 
> I want to get an HP for her as I want something she can also print 
B&Ws 
> from.  She prints only from the computer, so the LCD on the 7760 
and the 
> 7960 is pointless.
> 
> So, the choice is down (I think) to an HP PhotoSmart 7660 :
> 
> 1)   How do the B&W prints from the #59 cartridge compare to other 
B&W 
> prints regarding issues of neutral hues and metamerism?
> 
> 2)   Is there a significant advantage in having the 7 or 8 inks 
> installed at all times (as they are in the 7760 and 7960  
respectively) 
> instead of swapping them into and out of the 7660?
> 
> 3)    Does anyone know if all 8 colors are used by the 7960, or all 
7 by 
> the 7760, when printing photos?
> -- 
> 
>  
> Keith Krebs
> 
> "Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON 
printer 
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
> Publications), at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
> and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks 
together 
> guys"

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Hahn [mailto:markhahn2000@...] 
<snip> 
> The b&w prints are pretty much neutral and there is zero 
> metamorism... 

I'd have to disagree with this.  The prints on HPPP are fairly neutral -
good enough for me and I'm pretty picky.  But they are not metamerism
free.  There is a slight shift toward green in daylight and a slight
shift toward magenta under tungsten.

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com

> > The b&w prints are pretty much neutral and there is zero
> > metamorism... 
> I'd have to disagree with this.  The prints on HPPP are 
> fairly neutral - good enough for me and I'm pretty picky.  
> But they are not metamerism free.  There is a slight shift 
> toward green in daylight and a slight shift toward magenta 
> under tungsten.

Same result here. I don't own the printer, but have a print from an
exchange, and it does shift noticably in different lights. In daylight
it looks just about neutral, under a normal lightbulb it's slightly
pinkish, and under fluorescent lighting it turns slightly towards green.


It's way better than the metamerism from the 2200 though. I would say
the 2200 has major metamerism problems, while the HP has minor problems.
Still, make sure to look at a few sample prints before making a
purchase.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

ok, maybe it was my initial enthuiasm blocking that realization, but 
unlike most metamorism it is at least constant over the entire tonal 
range.  All b&w prints shift somewhat from one light to another 
because the paper reflects the different light and color cast.  The 
bummer is that it is much less noticable using papers other than the 
Premium Plus Glossy.  Just a blank sheet of HP glossy paper has the 
yellow/green cast shift.  With Tetenal semi-matte there is almost no 
shift at all and even with hp photo matte it is much less apparent...

still waiting for the perfect b&w printer I guess. 

mark

...
> Same result here. I don't own the printer, but have a print from an
> exchange, and it does shift noticably in different lights. In 
daylight
> it looks just about neutral, under a normal lightbulb it's slightly
> pinkish, and under fluorescent lighting it turns slightly towards 
green.
...

How expensive are the black cartridges?
And the color ones too?
Available only as a set of all colors or separately?

In the USA, Costco stores and on their online site, sell some of these HP 
Printers, if I recall.




At 10:50 PM 2/13/2004, you wrote:
>I just went through this.  If you are mainly interested in b&w you
>might as well go with the 7660.  It uses the same inks, nozzles (of
>course) and driver (that from HP which counters at least what is on
>one independant website).  The 7960 does use 8 colors for color
>images and thus gives you a wider gamut of colors.  I have the 7660
>and for snap shots the color looks really good, beating one hour
>digital or film output so my family is thilled (after years of b&w
>only they finally feel like we joined the real world).  The swapping
>part is almost trivial since hp put a place for the odd cart out.
>The printer seems pretty cheezy, but it seems to work fine... just
>don't want to snap off any of the flimsy plastic parts on the paper
>tray!  I think you'll be happy with any of them.
>
>The b&w prints are pretty much neutral and there is zero
>metamorism... nothing to complain about, but I'd prefer a warmer tone
>myself.  If this stuff took off you could imagine #59w, #59mw, #59n
>and #59c... well, you can dream right? :)  I was asking about how
>popular it was at CompUSA and they looked at the computer when I was
>buying my #59 cart and they told me that it was only the 6th one they
>had sold all year... guess they aren't hot items, though HP must
>think it is a big deal because they have the b&w capability featured
>heavily in the store displays.
>
>mark
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V.
>Image Service" <editor@p...> wrote:
> > Time for a real digital B&W issue.
> >
> > My mom is outgrowing her Lexmark Z51.  She's been printing photos
>for
> > her classes and Botany Club (she teaches) all of a sudden (wonder
>where
> > she got that idea?).
> >
> > I want to get an HP for her as I want something she can also print
>B&Ws
> > from.  She prints only from the computer, so the LCD on the 7760
>and the
> > 7960 is pointless.
> >
> > So, the choice is down (I think) to an HP PhotoSmart 7660 :
> >
> > 1)   How do the B&W prints from the #59 cartridge compare to other
>B&W
> > prints regarding issues of neutral hues and metamerism?
> >
> > 2)   Is there a significant advantage in having the 7 or 8 inks
> > installed at all times (as they are in the 7760 and 7960
>respectively)
> > instead of swapping them into and out of the 7660?
> >
> > 3)    Does anyone know if all 8 colors are used by the 7960, or all
>7 by
> > the 7760, when printing photos?
> > --
> >
> >
> > Keith Krebs
> >
> > "Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON
>printer
> > User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo
> > Publications), at:
> > 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
> > and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
> > 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
> > "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks
>together
> > guys"
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>1)   How do the B&W prints from the #59 cartridge compare to other B&W
>prints regarding issues of neutral hues and metamerism?

Compared to black-only prints with pigment ink on matte paper using an
Epson 1160:

- Image tone is best described as "unobtrusive": the prints look like B&W
photographs.

- Metamerism is minimal: there is some shift between tungsten and daylight,
but not enough to be bothersome. Most important, the image tone remains
consistent from shadows to highlights (i.e. there is no _differential_
metamerism).

- Note that the HP Premium Plus paper (I use the Matte surface, which is
actually a semigloss/luster) tends to buckle lot especially in heavy ink
coverage areas. The Ilford Galerie Classic paper, on the other hand (I just
tried the Pearl surface), dries absolutely flat, and BTW provides slightly
more open shadows and even less gloss differential than the HP paper.

-- Nick

NICHOLAS HARTMANN
Technical and scientific translator
(414) 271-4890
nh@...
http://www.nhartmann.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Nicholas 
Hartmann <POLYGLOT@E...> wrote:
> > 
> 
>..... - Note that the HP Premium Plus paper (I use the Matte 
surface, which is
> actually a semigloss/luster) tends to buckle lot especially in 
heavy ink
> coverage areas. The Ilford Galerie Classic paper, on the other hand 
(I just
> tried the Pearl surface), dries absolutely flat, and BTW provides 
slightly
> more open shadows and even less gloss differential than the HP 
paper.
> 
> -- Nick
> 
> NICHOLAS HARTMANN


Hi Nick,
I have also just started using Ilford Gallerie Classic Pearl on my HP 
7660. I prefer the look of it to the HP paper. Pity about the 
longevity as it would be nice to use that paper for exhibition prints 
as it has the look of gelatin silver(even though it's a RC paper), 
especially under glass. 

I am wondering if you can tell me what driver settings you are using 
as I an experimenting somewhat to see what gives the best result. So 
far I have found thst using "HP Premium Plus Photo Paper Matte" as 
the paper type, and printing at max dpi gives me a very nice print.
It's always interesting to hear what users are doing.

Regards,
Paul.

Paul Murphy
Sydney 
Australia

>>..... - Note that the HP Premium Plus paper (I use the Matte
>surface, which is
>> actually a semigloss/luster) tends to buckle lot especially in
>heavy ink
>> coverage areas. The Ilford Galerie Classic paper, on the other hand
>(I just
>> tried the Pearl surface), dries absolutely flat, and BTW provides
>slightly
>> more open shadows and even less gloss differential than the HP
>paper.
>>
>> -- Nick
>>
>> NICHOLAS HARTMANN
>
>
>Hi Nick,
>I have also just started using Ilford Gallerie Classic Pearl on my HP
>7660. I prefer the look of it to the HP paper. Pity about the
>longevity as it would be nice to use that paper for exhibition prints
>as it has the look of gelatin silver(even though it's a RC paper),
>especially under glass.
>
>I am wondering if you can tell me what driver settings you are using
>as I an experimenting somewhat to see what gives the best result. So
>far I have found thst using "HP Premium Plus Photo Paper Matte" as
>the paper type, and printing at max dpi gives me a very nice print.
>It's always interesting to hear what users are doing.

As best I can remember (the printer is hooked up to the computer at home,
where I am not at the moment): I use the "HP Premium Plus Photo Paper
Glossy" for both the Glossy and "Matte" (= luster) surfaces, and the same
for the Ilford Galerie Classic Pearl. I have decided the results are good
enough that I will NOT drive myself crazy trying every available paper
profile, but if your psyche is more robust you might find one that's just
perfect.

I have found that reducing the ink density just one notch (the control is
in the "Paper Type" section when you hit Print), I get less cockling with
the HP paper and more open, readable shadows with either paper. YMMV.

-- Nick

NICHOLAS HARTMANN
Technical and scientific translator
(414) 271-4890
nh@...
http://www.nhartmann.com