Digital BW, The Print

Don't forget Photorag!!

> (Most Stable Papers):
> Epson S/T Fine Art, Museo, HawkMtn (some), ____?____,
>
> (Most Stable Inks):
> Indellible, Piezo, ColorPiezo, ____?____,
>
> (Protective Sprays):
> Bulldog UV Protectant, ____?____,
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Mark, 

It would be nice if we would all agree.  A consensus statement that everyone knows by heart would become "law" and eventually if you tell enough people it will become "truth" to many. 

But...I disagree with a couple of your (quoted/excerpted) statements/proposals below. Specifically, 

I think buffered paper is a good idea.  Buffered paper is accepted as aiding longevity as it fights/neutralizes acid. 

I think "sprays" of coatings is questionable.  Too many variables in application, brands, components, vehicles etc... I would avoid sprays on an art print that will be behind glass.  Despite the interests of some to coat their prints, I believe it is best to keep the print without additional coatings.  I would most prefer it to be an art print with carbon pigments bound to rag paper.  

That said, I would recommend display behind UV blocking glass for protection. 

Overall, I think you are on the right track. 

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Tucker 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 2:44 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (Summary)


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
  <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
  > So you either have to continue with inkjet, live with that 
  > uncertainty and relax; continue with inkjet, live with that 
  > uncertainty and driver yourself totally nuts with worry or work in 
  > another print medium.


  Also for the record, I am totally committed to working in digital 
  and inkjet. Going back to silver has never crossed my mind. So 
  I'm here to stay; now the work is to come upon the best 
  combination.

  So, for now, can we all, as a group, create one or two sentences 
  that sum up a very general "best approach with current 
  materials"?

  "Best longevity when printing with inket printers: 100% 
  pigmented ink, printed on acid-free, 100% rag paper that 
  contains no optical brighteners or buffers, followed by a spray of 
  protective coating after printing."

  Brand Names with these traits:

  (Most Stable Papers):
  Epson S/T Fine Art, Museo, HawkMtn (some), ____?____,

  (Most Stable Inks):
  Indellible, Piezo, ColorPiezo, ____?____,

  (Protective Sprays):
  Bulldog UV Protectant, ____?____,



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julian Thomas wrote:

> Don't forget Photorag!!
>
> > (Most Stable Papers):
> > Epson S/T Fine Art, Museo, HawkMtn (some), ____?____,
> >
> > (Most Stable Inks):
> > Indellible, Piezo, ColorPiezo, ____?____,
> >
> > (Protective Sprays):
> > Bulldog UV Protectant, ____?____,

I have no idea, but does 'Photorag' use optical brighteners?

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steadman Uhlich wrote:
<snip>

> But...I disagree with a couple of your (quoted/excerpted) statements/proposals below. Specifically,
>
> I think buffered paper is a good idea.  Buffered paper is accepted as aiding longevity as it
> fights/neutralizes acid.
>

<snip>

Beware the interaction of color materials and buffering agents.  Certainly they are frowned upon for color
photographs, which would superficially indicate that they are bad for dyes.  Don't know about pigments tough.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rightyo.  

I know that chromogenic prints (color photographs and I believe Dye Sub prints) are adversely affected.  

I do not know of any information saying color pigment prints (such as pigment inks) are adversely affected.  My gut tells me that color pigments and calcium carbonate go well together (thinking about Michelangelo's fresco work etc..).  

If anyone does know a source that indicates color pigments and and buffer agents (calcium carbonate) have negatives together,  please post the citation.  

Thanks. 
Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: SKID Photography 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 5:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (Summary)


  Steadman Uhlich wrote:
  <snip>

  > But...I disagree with a couple of your (quoted/excerpted) statements/proposals below. Specifically,
  >
  > I think buffered paper is a good idea.  Buffered paper is accepted as aiding longevity as it
  > fights/neutralizes acid.
  >

  <snip>

  Beware the interaction of color materials and buffering agents.  Certainly they are frowned upon for color
  photographs, which would superficially indicate that they are bad for dyes.  Don't know about pigments tough.

  Harvey Ferdschneider
  partner, SKID Photography, NYC



  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have seen some small samples of PhotoRag, but since i have been running
around the country, i haven't had a chance to test it for OBA's.  Based on
its appearance, and similarity in color to German Etching/Torchon, I would
suspect that there is some OBA in the paper.  
If any of you have a black light available (any hippies out there--;)!),
then a simple test is to place the sheet under the black light.  If it
reflects the color of the black light (ie, purple) then there are OBA's in
the paper.  [black lights are generally a source UV rays, and OBA's are
intended to reflect UV.]  if the paper doesn't reflect, then there are no
OBA's.  
If I recall, from previous tests Somerset ENhanced has some OBA but less
than German Etching/Torchon.  Again, I am going from memory here and don't
have the test results in my hotel room here.
hope this helps,
robert rex

At 05:58 PM 10/14/01 -0400, you wrote:
>  Julian Thomas wrote:
> 
>> Don't forget Photorag!!
>>
>>> (Most Stable Papers):
>>> Epson S/T Fine Art, Museo, HawkMtn (some), ____?____,
>>>
>>> (Most Stable Inks):
>>> Indellible, Piezo, ColorPiezo, ____?____,
>>>
>>> (Protective Sprays):
>>> Bulldog UV Protectant, ____?____,
> 
> I have no idea, but does 'Photorag' use optical brighteners?
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC

PLEASE NOTE:  WHEN REPLYING, ENSURE THAT EMAIL ADDRESS READS--

chameleon@...


IF THE "pop" IS PRESENT IN THE EMAIL ADDRESS, 
DELETE THE "pop."  
THIS IS IMPORTANT, 
OTHERWISE I WILL NOT RECEIVE YOUR MESSAGE.

I know very little about coatings technology - but I have noticed that firm
brushing of Somerset Velvet Enhanced results in a very fine white dust
coming off the paper!!! This does not happen, to my eyes, with Hahnemhler
papers.

I wonder then, if SVE uses 'straight' chalk as a coating, and it is this
that encourages the dye to commute away from the surface and into the
paper... hence it's marked warming... whereas H* does something different
which is not so based around Calcium carbonate???

In other words, selection of paper coating will (as we already know from
experience) that coating will dramatically effect print longevity, but that
(perhaps) pigmented inks have a harder time as the dyes are so 'likely' to
handle a coating differently from the pigments.

It'd be great if someone like Robert could bring some data to this
suggestion!!! ;)

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steadman Uhlich [mailto:steadmanuhlich@...]
> Sent: 15 October 2001 00:14
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (Summary)
>
>
> Rightyo.
>
> I know that chromogenic prints (color photographs and I believe
> Dye Sub prints) are adversely affected.
>
> I do not know of any information saying color pigment prints
> (such as pigment inks) are adversely affected.  My gut tells me
> that color pigments and calcium carbonate go well together
> (thinking about Michelangelo's fresco work etc..).
>
> If anyone does know a source that indicates color pigments and
> and buffer agents (calcium carbonate) have negatives together,
> please post the citation.
>
> Thanks.
> Steadman

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> 
wrote:
> It'd be great if someone like Robert could bring some data to 
this
> suggestion!!! ;)


George Coon at Hawk Mountain would be a good one too. He 
knows his beans. He's over on the Epson9000 list sometimes, 
when Diana lets him come out of the basement.

I talked to him for a long time on the phone one day when I was 
testing Merlin. Hearing him talk about all the details of coming up 
with a successful inket coating made me realize just how much 
this technology is still in its infancy. I was shocked at how 
complex it really is to create a good coating.

Even tougher is that we're all using different inks. At least with 
silver paper, everyone on the list is using Dektol!

MT

Nij wrote:

> I know very little about coatings technology - but I have noticed that firm
> brushing of Somerset Velvet Enhanced results in a very fine white dust
> coming off the paper!!! This does not happen, to my eyes, with Hahnemhler
> papers.
>
> I wonder then, if SVE uses 'straight' chalk as a coating, and it is this
> that encourages the dye to commute away from the surface and into the
> paper... hence it's marked warming... whereas H* does something different
> which is not so based around Calcium carbonate???
>
> In other words, selection of paper coating will (as we already know from
> experience) that coating will dramatically effect print longevity, but that
> (perhaps) pigmented inks have a harder time as the dyes are so 'likely' to
> handle a coating differently from the pigments.

The inkjet paper coatings are not, as far as I know either chalk or calcium carbonate.  They are more like a
'gelatin' coating or a 'sizing' to the paper.  Although I believe gelatin coatings do not work well with
inkjet technology.  The concept of the coatings is to actually keep the ink *off* the paper.

The calcium carbonate additions to paper are added, I believe, in the pulp/slurry part of the process.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think George Coon posted something about inkjet coatings on this or
another list a little while back.  As far as I know chalk or Calcium
carbonate are not used in the coatings.  Gelatin can be used in coatings or
in sizings (these are the types of coated papers JOhn Nollendorfs is
looking for as gelatin sized/coated papers seem to offer better
lightfastness with dye-based inks).  other coatings my include inert
pigments and other chemicals (i think George was pretty specific in his
previous post--perhaps Martin can locate this post in the archive).
the chalk being dusted off the paper is more a result (IN MY OPINION ONLY
so take this with a grain of self-serving salt) of the quality of the
coating and its adherence to the paper fibers.
have i helped to clarify your questions here?
sincerely
robert rex

At 02:40 AM 10/15/01 +0100, you wrote:
>  I know very little about coatings technology - but I have noticed that firm
> brushing of Somerset Velvet Enhanced results in a very fine white dust
> coming off the paper!!! This does not happen, to my eyes, with Hahnemhler
> papers.
> 
> I wonder then, if SVE uses 'straight' chalk as a coating, and it is this
> that encourages the dye to commute away from the surface and into the
> paper... hence it's marked warming... whereas H* does something different
> which is not so based around Calcium carbonate???
> 
> In other words, selection of paper coating will (as we already know from
> experience) that coating will dramatically effect print longevity, but that
> (perhaps) pigmented inks have a harder time as the dyes are so 'likely' to
> handle a coating differently from the pigments.
> 
> It'd be great if someone like Robert could bring some data to this
> suggestion!!! ;)
> 
> Nij

PLEASE NOTE:  WHEN REPLYING, ENSURE THAT EMAIL ADDRESS READS--

chameleon@...


IF THE "pop" IS PRESENT IN THE EMAIL ADDRESS, 
DELETE THE "pop."  
THIS IS IMPORTANT, 
OTHERWISE I WILL NOT RECEIVE YOUR MESSAGE.

Robert,

I did not find any posts by George Coon. Diana York did post that 
calcium carbonate is used along with other ingredients in Post #3096.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Rex <chameleon@i...> 
wrote:
> I think George Coon posted something about inkjet coatings on this 
or
> another list a little while back.  As far as I know chalk or Calcium
> carbonate are not used in the coatings.  Gelatin can be used in 
coatings or
> in sizings (these are the types of coated papers JOhn Nollendorfs is
> looking for as gelatin sized/coated papers seem to offer better
> lightfastness with dye-based inks).  other coatings my include inert
> pigments and other chemicals (i think George was pretty specific in 
his
> previous post--perhaps Martin can locate this post in the archive).
> the chalk being dusted off the paper is more a result (IN MY 
OPINION ONLY
> so take this with a grain of self-serving salt) of the quality of 
the
> coating and its adherence to the paper fibers.
> have i helped to clarify your questions here?
> sincerely
> robert rex
> 
> At 02:40 AM 10/15/01 +0100, you wrote:
> >  I know very little about coatings technology - but I have 
noticed that firm
> > brushing of Somerset Velvet Enhanced results in a very fine white 
dust
> > coming off the paper!!! This does not happen, to my eyes, with 
Hahnemhler
> > papers.
> > 
> > I wonder then, if SVE uses 'straight' chalk as a coating, and it 
is this
> > that encourages the dye to commute away from the surface and into 
the
> > paper... hence it's marked warming... whereas H* does something 
different
> > which is not so based around Calcium carbonate???
> > 
> > In other words, selection of paper coating will (as we already 
know from
> > experience) that coating will dramatically effect print 
longevity, but that
> > (perhaps) pigmented inks have a harder time as the dyes are 
so 'likely' to

> > handle a coating differently from the pigments.
> > 
> > It'd be great if someone like Robert could bring some data to this
> > suggestion!!! ;)
> > 
> > Nij
> 
> PLEASE NOTE:  WHEN REPLYING, ENSURE THAT EMAIL ADDRESS READS--
> 
> chameleon@i...
> 
> 
> IF THE "pop" IS PRESENT IN THE EMAIL ADDRESS, 
> DELETE THE "pop."  
> THIS IS IMPORTANT, 
> OTHERWISE I WILL NOT RECEIVE YOUR MESSAGE.

Hmm don't know.

J
----- Original Message -----
From: "SKID Photography" <skid@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: A Call for Standards (Summary)


> Julian Thomas wrote:
>
> > Don't forget Photorag!!
> >
> > > (Most Stable Papers):
> > > Epson S/T Fine Art, Museo, HawkMtn (some), ____?____,
> > >
> > > (Most Stable Inks):
> > > Indellible, Piezo, ColorPiezo, ____?____,
> > >
> > > (Protective Sprays):
> > > Bulldog UV Protectant, ____?____,
>
> I have no idea, but does 'Photorag' use optical brighteners?
>
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> I know very little about coatings technology - but I have noticed that
firm
> brushing of Somerset Velvet Enhanced results in a very fine white dust
> coming off the paper!!! This does not happen, to my eyes, with Hahnemhler
> papers.
>
> >

It does with WT/WR! I've just opened a new box and I'm having flaking for
the first time (must be my 6th box). I'm brushing and using canned air.

Julian

martin, that was the one that i was thinking of.  Sorry Diana, in my mind i
think of you and George as one (hopefully neither of you are offended.)
robert rex

At 04:31 AM 10/15/01 -0000, you wrote:
>  Robert,
> 
> I did not find any posts by George Coon. Diana York did post that 
> calcium carbonate is used along with other ingredients in Post #3096.
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
><> 
> wrote:
>> I think George Coon posted something about inkjet coatings on this 
> or
>>  As far as I know chalk or Calcium
>>  Gelatin can be used in 
> coatings or
>> in sizings (these are the types of coated papers JOhn Nollendorfs is
>> looking for as gelatin sized/coated papers seem to offer better
>>  other coatings my include inert
>> pigments and other chemicals (i think George was pretty specific in 
> his
>> previous post--perhaps Martin can locate this post in the archive).
>> the chalk being dusted off the paper is more a result (IN MY 
> OPINION ONLY
>> so take this with a grain of self-serving salt) of the quality of 
> the
>> coating and its adherence to the paper fibers.
>> have i helped to clarify your questions here?
>> sincerely
>> robert rex
>> 
>> At 02:40 AM 10/15/01 +0100, you wrote:
>>>  I know very little about coatings technology - but I have 
> noticed that firm
>>> brushing of Somerset Velvet Enhanced results in a very fine white 
> dust
>>> coming off the paper!!! This does not happen, to my eyes, with 
> Hahnemhler
>>> papers.
>>> 
>>> I wonder then, if SVE uses 'straight' chalk as a coating, and it 
> is this
>>> that encourages the dye to commute away from the surface and into 
> the
>>> paper... hence it's marked warming... whereas H* does something 
> different
>>> which is not so based around Calcium carbonate???
>>> 
>>> In other words, selection of paper coating will (as we already 
> know from
>>> experience) that coating will dramatically effect print 
> longevity, but that
>>> (perhaps) pigmented inks have a harder time as the dyes are 
> so 'likely' to
>>> handle a coating differently from the pigments.
>>> 
>>> It'd be great if someone like Robert could bring some data to this
>>> suggestion!!! ;)
>>> 
>>> Nij
>> 
>>  WHEN REPLYING, ENSURE THAT EMAIL ADDRESS READS--
>> 
>> chameleon@i...
>> 
>> 
>>"" IS PRESENT IN THE EMAIL ADDRESS, 
>>""  
>> THIS IS IMPORTANT, 
>> OTHERWISE I WILL NOT RECEIVE YOUR MESSAGE.
> 
>    
>  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>""
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
>  
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     
PLEASE NOTE:  WHEN REPLYING, ENSURE THAT EMAIL ADDRESS READS--

chameleon@...


IF THE "pop" IS PRESENT IN THE EMAIL ADDRESS, 
DELETE THE "pop."  
THIS IS IMPORTANT, 
OTHERWISE I WILL NOT RECEIVE YOUR MESSAGE.