Digital BW, The Print

I've got a corporate client who, w/in the next 2 weeks, will be 
purchasing 4 large (at least 20x24) B&W prints from me for their 
office.  I currently have an Epson 2200 + ImagePrint, so obviously my 
current equipment won't work.

Here's my dilemma, given that I'm currently looking at purchasing a 
wide-format printer, but haven't done so yet.  Do I (a) go ahead and 
get a 9600 (my top choice at the moment) plus ImagePrint and do the 
job myself or (b) send these prints out and continue the long 
painstaking process of deciding what to do in the long run for large 
format B&W independent of this current job?  I haven't yet figured 
out what I'm going to charge these guys (any help there would be 
greatly appreciated).  But if I send it out to West Coast Imaging, I 
guessing it will cost me around $100 (I had a 20x30 Piezo print done 
there a few months back and it was around $120), thereby 
significantly cutting into my profit margin if I charge anything like 
a reasonable price for the prints.  (Another factor is that they also 
want me to frame the prints -- I guess I could jack up the total cost 
by "writing it off" to the framing cost....).  Assuming it costs me 
about $10 each to make these prints myself on a 9600 (I just made 
that number up), I could make $90 profit on each print.  Or, I could 
send it out to West Coast and make almost no profit unless I want to 
give the client a serious case of sticker shock.

What would you do in this situation?  I mean, I'm getting tired of 
throwing money down the drain by having someone else do my wide 
format work, but I don't want to be hasty on the purchase of a 9600 
either....

(A final piece of the puzzle is that I have been thinking about 
having 2 printers, one dedicated to B&W probably running the UT7 
system when it becomes available.  But to do this job (right) myself 
on the 9600, I need ImagePrint; and if I buy ImagePrint (I got a 
quote from a dealer of $2000 for it for the 9600), I ain't buying a 
second printer for a LONG time).

Another related question: How do we like the Atkinson profiles for 
B&W?  I odn't have a 9600, so I've never used them.   Given that the 
particular prints I'm thinking of will only be displayed in constant 
lighting conditions known to me beforehand (I don't know exactly what 
yet, but I do know that the primary illumination will be artificial 
given the layout of the office), I'm assuming that metamerism will be 
less of a problem than if the prints were potentially moving between 
lighting sources or if the lighting source was unknown.  So, I'm 
thinking that maybe my short term dilemma could be solved by the use 
of a good profile.

So: anyone reasonably content w. using the Atkinson profiles for 
B&W?  If I'm not as concerned about metamerism in this particular 
situation as I normally would be, is this the way to go?  Oh, and 
what lighting source (tungsten, daylight,etc) are the Atkinson 
profiles balanced towards?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> I've got a corporate client who, w/in the next 2 weeks, will be 
> purchasing 4 large (at least 20x24) B&W prints from me for their 
> office.  I currently have an Epson 2200 + ImagePrint, so obviously my 
> current equipment won't work.

On my Soapbox:
You're pricing your work based on what you would pay yourself for them if you were tight 
on cash :-). You're dealing with a CORPORATE client. And they're obviously interested in 
the work. In the end, you get more respect for charging "high" rather than low. But it 
sounds like you need to determine a pricing structure for your work. Factor in production 
costs (ie flight hotel, expenses to shoot in, say Yosemite), calculate materials cost (ie film, 
developing, and printing costs). Add in your TIME, then factor the markup/profit you'd like 
to earn. These principles are the same for Walmart (OK you're not hiring undocumented 
immigrants for poverty wages) and your local plumber. Treat it like a business, or just give 
them away. The benefit of developing a pricing structure is you don't have to go through 
existential angst over what to charge everytime someone wants to but something.
Practical advice:
If you've got 2 weeks to deliver a framed print, you'll have to order and take delivery of a 
9600, verify its working properly, get comfortable with a RIP, fine tune your images for 
output, and have absolutely no hiccups whatsoever to meet this turnaround. 

best of luck

amadou diallo

Thank you all for your comments so far -- please keep 'em coming!  I 
obviously have a lot of thinking to do...I think the advice of figuring out pricing 
b/f figuring out whether it makes the most sense to jump and get the 9600 v. 
sending them out makes sense.  However, I'm not sure one really can ever 
come up w. a totally scientific pricing structure.  For example: if I followed the 
suggestions below, the image I took in Cleveland (where I live) that they're 
interested in would sell for a miniscule portion of the image I took 2 weeks 
ago in Valley of Fire State Park that they're also interested in (factoring in 
hotel, airfair, rental car, etc).  So, my approach thus far has been to either (a) 
try to get a sense of what others are charging or (b) just make it up.

In an earlier post, someone mentioned $500 as appropriate for framed prints 
this size (say 20x24).  I mean, I would pay that for an image I loved, so I guess 
it's not unreasonable for a corporate client to pay that.  (It's an  office of a big 
insurance company, but I think it's an independent office, so I'm not sure if 
they have "corporate" dough).  I guess it is better to come in too high and 
negotiate down, but I'd hate to be perceived as unreasonable and turn them 
off...

So, please kepe your thoughts coming.  Also, if anyone has any input on the 
technical decision (9600 + IP v. 9600 w. Epson driver and Atkinson profiles for 
this job), I'd appreciate it.

The point below re: the turn around window makes sense, even ignoring 
issues of becoming proficient w. the printer and software.  I already have the 
2200 and ImagePrint, so I'm assuming the learning curve w. the 9600 won't 
be that high.  But given that it would be at least 5 days b/f I got the printer and 
at least a week to get the prints framed and matted, I'd be pushing my 2 week 
turn-around.  (There is some flex in that -- they just opened the office, so they 
want to get stuff up ASAP, but they won't die if it takes 3 weeks rather than 2).



> On my Soapbox:
> You're pricing your work based on what you would pay yourself for them if 
you were tight 
> on cash :-). You're dealing with a CORPORATE client. And they're obviously 
interested in 
> the work. In the end, you get more respect for charging "high" rather than 
low. But it 
> sounds like you need to determine a pricing structure for your work. Factor 
in production 
> costs (ie flight hotel, expenses to shoot in, say Yosemite), calculate 
materials cost (ie film, 
> developing, and printing costs). Add in your TIME, then factor the markup/
profit you'd like 
> to earn. These principles are the same for Walmart (OK you're not hiring 
undocumented 
> immigrants for poverty wages) and your local plumber. Treat it like a 
business, or just give 
> them away. The benefit of developing a pricing structure is you don't have to 
go through 
> existential angst over what to charge everytime someone wants to but 
something.
> Practical advice:
> If you've got 2 weeks to deliver a framed print, you'll have to order and take 
delivery of a 
> 9600, verify its working properly, get comfortable with a RIP, fine tune your 
images for 

> output, and have absolutely no hiccups whatsoever to meet this turnaround. 
> 
> best of luck
> 
> amadou diallo

The Atkinson profiles I tried were no match for IP on my 9600.  Remember, if you're going to charge first rate, no compromise prices, you need to provide first rate work. 
 
$2000 isn't a bad price for IP. 
 
Tom Baker

chipcarterdc <chipcarterdc@...> wrote:
Thank you all for your comments so far -- please keep 'em coming!  I 
obviously have a lot of thinking to do...I think the advice of figuring out pricing 
b/f figuring out whether it makes the most sense to jump and get the 9600 v. 
sending them out makes sense.  However, I'm not sure one really can ever 
come up w. a totally scientific pricing structure.  For example: if I followed the 
suggestions below, the image I took in Cleveland (where I live) that they're 
interested in would sell for a miniscule portion of the image I took 2 weeks 
ago in Valley of Fire State Park that they're also interested in (factoring in 
hotel, airfair, rental car, etc).  So, my approach thus far has been to either (a) 
try to get a sense of what others are charging or (b) just make it up.

In an earlier post, someone mentioned $500 as appropriate for framed prints 
this size (say 20x24).  I mean, I would pay that for an image I loved, so I guess 
it's not unreasonable for a corporate client to pay that.  (It's an  office of a big 
insurance company, but I think it's an independent office, so I'm not sure if 
they have "corporate" dough).  I guess it is better to come in too high and 
negotiate down, but I'd hate to be perceived as unreasonable and turn them 
off...

So, please kepe your thoughts coming.  Also, if anyone has any input on the 
technical decision (9600 + IP v. 9600 w. Epson driver and Atkinson profiles for 
this job), I'd appreciate it.

The point below re: the turn around window makes sense, even ignoring 
issues of becoming proficient w. the printer and software.  I already have the 
2200 and ImagePrint, so I'm assuming the learning curve w. the 9600 won't 
be that high.  But given that it would be at least 5 days b/f I got the printer and 
at least a week to get the prints framed and matted, I'd be pushing my 2 week 
turn-around.  (There is some flex in that -- they just opened the office, so they 
want to get stuff up ASAP, but they won't die if it takes 3 weeks rather than 2).



> On my Soapbox:
> You're pricing your work based on what you would pay yourself for them if 
you were tight 
> on cash :-). You're dealing with a CORPORATE client. And they're obviously 
interested in 
> the work. In the end, you get more respect for charging "high" rather than 
low. But it 
> sounds like you need to determine a pricing structure for your work. Factor 
in production 
> costs (ie flight hotel, expenses to shoot in, say Yosemite), calculate 
materials cost (ie film, 
> developing, and printing costs). Add in your TIME, then factor the markup/
profit you'd like 
> to earn. These principles are the same for Walmart (OK you're not hiring 
undocumented 
> immigrants for poverty wages) and your local plumber. Treat it like a 
business, or just give 
> them away. The benefit of developing a pricing structure is you don't have to 
go through 
> existential angst over what to charge everytime someone wants to but 
something.
> Practical advice:
> If you've got 2 weeks to deliver a framed print, you'll have to order and take 
delivery of a 
> 9600, verify its working properly, get comfortable with a RIP, fine tune your 
images for 
> output, and have absolutely no hiccups whatsoever to meet this turnaround. 
> 
> best of luck
> 
> amadou diallo



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 20:47 +0000 6.3.2004, chipcarterdc wrote:
*******************************************

>But to do this job (right) myself
>on the 9600, I need ImagePrint; and if I buy ImagePrint (I got a
>quote from a dealer of $2000 for it for the 9600), I ain't buying a
>second printer for a LONG time).

ColorByte offers discount if you buy licence for additional printer 
for existing licence of IP. I'm not sure how much it is in case of 
2200 + 9600, but something should be there.

Martin
--

I think that $500 is fairly cheap for what you are talking about, and you better be careful 
or the cost of the frame will be most of that, given the exotic taste some people have in 
frames.  I saw some med sized photos selling for about $300 in a gallery/frame shop and 
thought "getting a reasonable price anyway".  Then I asked what a frame like that would 
cost, and it was over $200.

And pricing methods?  the first answer posted said it all.  It is a business right?  not a gosh 
whatever you'll give me.  And indeed it won't end up completely scientific, almost nothing 
is.  

Consider pricing the art alone for a few hundred and add the frame as itemized plus labor.  
Then you can give them a choice of frame too.

I'm sort of curious how the client bought something without a price.  Wonder if they 
assumed it would be 'dirt cheap'?

Good Luck

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Martin Sluka <martinsluka@m...> 
wrote:

> At 20:47 +0000 6.3.2004, chipcarterdc wrote:
> *******************************************
> 
> >But to do this job (right) myself
> >on the 9600, I need ImagePrint; and if I buy ImagePrint (I got a
> >quote from a dealer of $2000 for it for the 9600), I ain't buying a
> >second printer for a LONG time).
> 
> ColorByte offers discount if you buy licence for additional printer 
> for existing licence of IP. I'm not sure how much it is in case of 
> 2200 + 9600, but something should be there.
> 
> Martin
> --

> I'm sort of curious how the client bought something without a price.  Wonder 
if they 
> assumed it would be 'dirt cheap'?
ot sure how much it is in case of 

Well, here's what happened: the head of the office saw a DVD of my portfolio 
thru a friend.  She commutes between NY and Cleveland, so she told the "art 
selection committee" to select 4 of my prints, but left it to them which 4 to 
select.  Because she's been back and forth, we haven't gotten down to a 
discussion on price and couldn't determine price until we determine size 
anyway, and can't determine size until I go into the office at the end of this 
week to see exactly where they'll be hanging.

So, the short of it is that she said to her office "I love his work -- buy it!" and left 
the details to them and me.

So it's not too late, just make up a price list.  (not too cheap please)

and good luck

note that the separation of selector (buyer) and payer gives you an advantage...


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:

> 
> > I'm sort of curious how the client bought something without a price.  Wonder 
> if they 
> > assumed it would be 'dirt cheap'?
> ot sure how much it is in case of 
> 
> Well, here's what happened: the head of the office saw a DVD of my portfolio 
> thru a friend.  She commutes between NY and Cleveland, so she told the "art 
> selection committee" to select 4 of my prints, but left it to them which 4 to 
> select.  Because she's been back and forth, we haven't gotten down to a 
> discussion on price and couldn't determine price until we determine size 
> anyway, and can't determine size until I go into the office at the end of this 
> week to see exactly where they'll be hanging.
> 
> So, the short of it is that she said to her office "I love his work -- buy it!" and left 
> the details to them and me.

Sounds like you might want to get the 'details' worked out before deciding on the technology approach.  
 
Tom Baker

chipcarterdc <chipcarterdc@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I'm sort of curious how the client bought something without a price.  Wonder 
if they 
> assumed it would be 'dirt cheap'?
ot sure how much it is in case of 

Well, here's what happened: the head of the office saw a DVD of my portfolio 
thru a friend.  She commutes between NY and Cleveland, so she told the "art 
selection committee" to select 4 of my prints, but left it to them which 4 to 
select.  Because she's been back and forth, we haven't gotten down to a 
discussion on price and couldn't determine price until we determine size 
anyway, and can't determine size until I go into the office at the end of this 
week to see exactly where they'll be hanging.

So, the short of it is that she said to her office "I love his work -- buy it!" and left 
the details to them and me.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In case anyone is interested to the follow-up on this story.  Among other 
helpful responses to my original post, there was some interesting discussion 
about pricing.  Just a quick end to the story:

I went to meet with the client today.  Took along 5-6 mounted prints as well as 
my portfolio on my laptop (I have it in iPhoto and iDVD format).  Also took 
along a detailed pricing sheet w. printout of the Wilhelm data on Ultrachrome 
prints attached.  Finally, took along 3 copies of the portfolio on DVD.

The initial contact was the head of the office, who gave the 4 people there 
autonomy to decide what they wanted but who made some suggestions.  So, 
the prints I brought leaned toward the ones she liked.  The 2 people making 
the selections had totally different stuff in mind, so it's a good thing I brought 
the whole portfolio.  In the end, they selected 4 (instead of 3) color (instead of 
B&W) shots.

The total price I gave them for 4 20x24 framed color images was $1375.  
Works out to something like $340/ea.  My matting and framing cost will be $90 
(discounted -- I have a friend who works at the frame shop).  Assuming about 
$25 cost for each print (on a 9600), I'll have a total of about $800 profit (not 
counting cost of my time, cost of making the images, etc, since I don't really 
know how to quantify that).  

The interesting things here are that (a) had I brought only what the initial 
contact person was interested in, I likely would not have made a sale and (b) I 
shoulda listened to the advice from someone who responded to my original 
post and asked $500/ea -- they didn't even blink at the price I gave them, and 
I'm positive I could have priced it at $500 w. no problem.  Live and learn....

Also, as it happens to work out, I have more time to find a B&W solution.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" <
chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:

> I've got a corporate client who, w/in the next 2 weeks, will be 
> purchasing 4 large (at least 20x24) B&W prints from me for their 
> office.  I currently have an Epson 2200 + ImagePrint, so obviously my 
> current equipment won't work.
> 
> Here's my dilemma, given that I'm currently looking at purchasing a 
> wide-format printer, but haven't done so yet.  Do I (a) go ahead and 
> get a 9600 (my top choice at the moment) plus ImagePrint and do the 
> job myself or (b) send these prints out and continue the long 
> painstaking process of deciding what to do in the long run for large 
> format B&W independent of this current job?  I haven't yet figured 
> out what I'm going to charge these guys (any help there would be 
> greatly appreciated).  But if I send it out to West Coast Imaging, I 
> guessing it will cost me around $100 (I had a 20x30 Piezo print done 
> there a few months back and it was around $120), thereby 
> significantly cutting into my profit margin if I charge anything like 
> a reasonable price for the prints.  (Another factor is that they also 
> want me to frame the prints -- I guess I could jack up the total cost 
> by "writing it off" to the framing cost....).  Assuming it costs me 
> about $10 each to make these prints myself on a 9600 (I just made 
> that number up), I could make $90 profit on each print.  Or, I could 
> send it out to West Coast and make almost no profit unless I want to 
> give the client a serious case of sticker shock.
> 
> What would you do in this situation?  I mean, I'm getting tired of 
> throwing money down the drain by having someone else do my wide 
> format work, but I don't want to be hasty on the purchase of a 9600 
> either....
> 
> (A final piece of the puzzle is that I have been thinking about 
> having 2 printers, one dedicated to B&W probably running the UT7 
> system when it becomes available.  But to do this job (right) myself 
> on the 9600, I need ImagePrint; and if I buy ImagePrint (I got a 
> quote from a dealer of $2000 for it for the 9600), I ain't buying a 
> second printer for a LONG time).

Sounds like an unqualified success to me, Chip. You sold some prints, 
made some money, learned at least one useful thing about each of 
preparation and pricing, and gained time in which to consider your 
B&W solution. Congratulations.
--
Sam


At 7:00 PM +0000 3/12/04, chipcarterdc wrote:

>In case anyone is interested to the follow-up on this story.  Among other
>helpful responses to my original post, there was some interesting discussion
>about pricing.  Just a quick end to the story: [snipped]

Thanks!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless <
samcc@v...> wrote:
> Sounds like an unqualified success to me, Chip. You sold some prints, 
> made some money, learned at least one useful thing about each of 
> preparation and pricing, and gained time in which to consider your 
> B&W solution. Congratulations.
> --
> Sam
> 
> 
> At 7:00 PM +0000 3/12/04, chipcarterdc wrote:
> >In case anyone is interested to the follow-up on this story.  Among other
> >helpful responses to my original post, there was some interesting 
discussion
> >about pricing.  Just a quick end to the story: [snipped]