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Digital output to match fiber based printing?

Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-13 by karo

Digital output to match fiber?
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Hi,
I am a professional photographer and for a while now have I been looking into printing 
black & white good quality digital black and white images. I read much material and I saw 
many samples. Some of these samples I saw where done with Quadtone inksets and the 
results were excellent. The problem is that excellent is not good enough for me. I saw 
samples that were as good as prints on RC paper but I need higher quality than that. I do 
not care about the cost but I must have a system that meets my demands. Some folks 
were suggesting a system that involves a RIP and quadtone. What it today's VERY, VERY 
BEST technology for digital black and white printing? I am not sure how many of you 
actually saw an original Ansel Adams or Robert Mapplethorp print. This is the quality I 
need to achieve. Thank you for your insights.
Ken

Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-13 by Clayton Jones

Hello Karo,

>What is today's VERY, VERY BEST technology for digital black 
>and white printing? 

You will probably get several different answers to this.  Imagine
asking a bunch of zonies what is the best paper...

There are several excellent systems available, and all are being used
to make beautiful prints by people who have paid their dues, worked
hard, and learned.  It's not easy to decide which system to invest in.

One thing to beware of is the trap of thinking that the printer/ink
system is the only element in the mix that results in a good print. 
The other side of the coin is the user's skills in the software used
to prepare the image (usually Photoshop).  That's a whole 'nother
ballgame with a big learning curve all its own.  You can be a super
photographer and buy the best system and if you don't know your way
around the software you will produce poor results.

You say that "excellent is not good enough".  That's a pretty loaded
statement, sort of like stacking the deck in advance.  I don't know
what you have looked at so far, but if you are satisfied that what you
have seen is the best that can be done and it's not good enough, then
maybe digital printing is not for you.  On the other hand you might
make an effort to view some prints from a true master printer like
Paul Roark, Roy Harrington, Tyler Boley and others, and be sure you
really have seen what can be done before making up your mind.

Many (if not most) of the photographers who frequent this forum have
many years of dedicated darkroom experience, and have left it behind
and aren't looking back.  So you can conclude that either they have
all lost their senses and are opting out for poor quality so they can
play with their new high-tech toys, or maybe, just maybe, there is
some good reason for it.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-13 by Tom Baker

Karo  -
 
One of the primary reasons that I left the darkroom (and I learned in person from AA) is that I can get results in digital that were/are not possible in the darkroom.  The selection of paper types for darkroom use is not nearly as great as digital output.  True, you can't get an exact match to the darkroom method, but many of us believe that we are getting better results now than in the darkroom.  If you MUST have the darkroom look, you'll need to stay in the darkroom, at least for now.
 
Tom Baker

Clayton Jones <cj@...> wrote:
Hello Karo,

>What is today's VERY, VERY BEST technology for digital black 
>and white printing? 

You will probably get several different answers to this.  Imagine
asking a bunch of zonies what is the best paper...

There are several excellent systems available, and all are being used
to make beautiful prints by people who have paid their dues, worked
hard, and learned.  It's not easy to decide which system to invest in.

One thing to beware of is the trap of thinking that the printer/ink
system is the only element in the mix that results in a good print. 
The other side of the coin is the user's skills in the software used
to prepare the image (usually Photoshop).  That's a whole 'nother
ballgame with a big learning curve all its own.  You can be a super
photographer and buy the best system and if you don't know your way
around the software you will produce poor results.

You say that "excellent is not good enough".  That's a pretty loaded
statement, sort of like stacking the deck in advance.  I don't know
what you have looked at so far, but if you are satisfied that what you
have seen is the best that can be done and it's not good enough, then
maybe digital printing is not for you.  On the other hand you might
make an effort to view some prints from a true master printer like
Paul Roark, Roy Harrington, Tyler Boley and others, and be sure you
really have seen what can be done before making up your mind.

Many (if not most) of the photographers who frequent this forum have
many years of dedicated darkroom experience, and have left it behind
and aren't looking back.  So you can conclude that either they have
all lost their senses and are opting out for poor quality so they can
play with their new high-tech toys, or maybe, just maybe, there is
some good reason for it.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm



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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-13 by James Irelan

My feeling on wet darkroom vs digital is that while digital may never 
be able to exactly equal what a silver gelatin paper looks like- the 
materials are different, after all- and while silver gelatin papers are 
indeed beautiful, the editing capabilities of working digitally are so 
superior (especially if they are informed by long experience in the 
darkroom), and the ink/paper combinations, while different from 
silver/gelatin, are also beautiful in their own right, that ultimately 
digital wins; it not only matches fiber printing, it surpasses it.  I 
have proven it to myself;  I have been able to improve on my darkroom 
prints with digital versions.  On my wall I have two (different) 
high-key portraits side by side.  One is gelatin/silver, the other 
digital.  People can't tell which is which.

James Irelan

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-13 by Ellie Kennard

Interesting James,

What do you use for your printing? (printer, inks, RIP, paper etc.)

Regards,

Ellie

James Irelan said:
> My feeling on wet darkroom vs digital is that while digital may never
> be able to exactly equal what a silver gelatin paper looks like- the
> materials are different, after all- and while silver gelatin papers are
> indeed beautiful, the editing capabilities of working digitally are so
> superior (especially if they are informed by long experience in the
> darkroom), and the ink/paper combinations, while different from
> silver/gelatin, are also beautiful in their own right, that ultimately
> digital wins; it not only matches fiber printing, it surpasses it.  I
> have proven it to myself;  I have been able to improve on my darkroom
> prints with digital versions.  On my wall I have two (different)
> high-key portraits side by side.  One is gelatin/silver, the other
> digital.  People can't tell which is which.
>
> James Irelan

-- 
Ellie Kennard
Innovative Imaging Studio
http://www.iiStudio.com
Contributor to Photoshop Restoration & Retouching (2nd edition) by Katrin
Eismann

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-13 by Truman Prevatt

I am sure that the loss ot platinum and palladium was mourned and to 
recreate the look and feel of the great prints in this media with fiber 
based silver emulsion paper became quest for the holy grail. Of course 
it was never duplicated but fiber base silver paper was accepted for its 
own unique beauty.

Today, injet prints are new and to duplicate the look a feel of fiber 
base silver paper has become the new quest for the holy grail. But like 
in the past they will be recogonizied for their own unique beauty.

It all gets down to the vision of the photographer and the quality of 
his craft. Edward Weston could have printed B&W on a paper towel using 
an cheapo HP 852C printer and it would have still been a masterpiece.

Truman

James Irelan wrote:

> My feeling on wet darkroom vs digital is that while digital may never
> be able to exactly equal what a silver gelatin paper looks like- the
> materials are different, after all- and while silver gelatin papers are
> indeed beautiful, the editing capabilities of working digitally are so
> superior (especially if they are informed by long experience in the
> darkroom), and the ink/paper combinations, while different from
> silver/gelatin, are also beautiful in their own right, that ultimately
> digital wins; it not only matches fiber printing, it surpasses it.  I
> have proven it to myself;  I have been able to improve on my darkroom
> prints with digital versions.  On my wall I have two (different)
> high-key portraits side by side.  One is gelatin/silver, the other
> digital.  People can't tell which is which.
>
> James Irelan
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
> AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
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-- 

We imitate our masters only because we are not yet masters ourselves, 
and only

because in doing so we learn the truth about what cannot be imitated.

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-13 by James Irelan

On Saturday, March 13, 2004, at 04:26 PM, Truman Prevatt wrote:

> I am sure that the loss ot platinum and palladium was mourned and to
> recreate the look and feel of the great prints in this media with fiber
> based silver emulsion paper became quest for the holy grail. Of course
> it was never duplicated but fiber base silver paper was accepted for 
> its
> own unique beauty.
>

Yes, and coincidentally enough, my first successful prints a few years 
ago with Cone Piezography reminded me most of platinum prints. The 
first SUCCESSFUL ones.  There were others... :  )

James


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-13 by D. Hill

> It all gets down to the vision of the photographer
> and the quality of 
> his craft. Edward Weston could have printed B&W on a
> paper towel using 
> an cheapo HP 852C printer and it would have still
> been a masterpiece.
> 

No it wouldn't.

You do not need "the best" of available equipment for
digital printing.  Plenty will tell you what the best
is - but that is completely subjective to their
current setup, and it will change with whatever Epson
is selling next.

With that being said, I do suggest a 1280 for
beginning in fine black and white printing.  You can
print up to 13 inches wide, and it is supported by
many third party quadtone suppliers.

Don

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Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-13 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "karo"
<m_narlen@h...> wrote:
...
This is subjective. I'm not sure what you mean by the quality you need
to achieve, even though I've seen many Adams, Mapplethorps, and many
more. The LEVEL of quality possible is only limited by the talents of
the print maker. But the PARTICULAR print qualities may be unique to
the materials.
I still think the two mediums are different. The very best silver
prints I have seen and the very best inkjet prints I've seen are
different. They don't compete with each other any more than silver and
platinum do. One is not expected to rise to the level of the other,
they have unique qualities.
If the excellent prints you saw were not good enough for you, and my
sense of what you are after is correct, I suspect you should stay in
the darkroom.
There are things you can do in Photoshop that darkroom workers can
only dream of, but the best silver work out there most certainly did
not suffer for the lack of Photoshop, they exude perfection.
Though I commited to quad printing for myself, there are many I think
should stay in the darkroom. Another option might be digital negs on
silver papers, or lightjet like Fokos. Could you personally achieve
this elusive quality in the darkroom? Why change? Is it because of
digital capture and you need output? Shoot film, works great.
Tyler

> Hi,
> I am a professional photographer and for a while now have I been
looking into printing 
> black & white good quality digital black and white images. I read
much material and I saw 
> many samples. Some of these samples I saw where done with Quadtone
inksets and the 
> results were excellent. The problem is that excellent is not good
enough for me. I saw 
> samples that were as good as prints on RC paper but I need higher
quality than that. I do 
> not care about the cost but I must have a system that meets my
demands. Some folks 
> were suggesting a system that involves a RIP and quadtone. What it
today's VERY, VERY 
> BEST technology for digital black and white printing? I am not sure
how many of you 
> actually saw an original Ansel Adams or Robert Mapplethorp print.
This is the quality I 
> need to achieve. Thank you for your insights.
> Ken

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-13 by Austin Franklin

Hi James,

> Yes, and coincidentally enough, my first successful prints a few years
> ago with Cone Piezography reminded me most of platinum prints. The
> first SUCCESSFUL ones.  There were others... :  )

I'm glad you said that.  I felt the same way after I got my first
spectacular prints from Piezo...

Regards,

Austin

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-13 by James Irelan

On Saturday, March 13, 2004, at 04:19 PM, Ellie Kennard wrote:

> Interesting James,
>
> What do you use for your printing? (printer, inks, RIP, paper etc.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Ellie
>

Ellie,

I'm in somewhat of a flux now, as I have been using a 7600 with UCs and 
ImagePrint.  I have a set of CavePaints on order, and I am now using 
Colorburst most of the time.  However recently I had to print a black 
and white for someone, and in trying to use Colorburst, the print was- 
well, let's just say too dark.  I just have to find the right settings. 
  So I turned back to ImagePrint, which in my opinion is excellent for 
black and white.  My friend got a copy of Colorburst and said his black 
and whites were killer right out of the box, and he's a black and white 
expert, so I just picked the wrong included profile to try, and didn't 
have time to experiment right then.

In the past, I've used other things for black and white:  I jumped on 
Jon Cone's Piezography early, and despite disappointing early results, 
had some excellent results with it, too.  I tried the MIS inks with 
Paul Roarke's curves, and got good results there, too, although nothing 
like the fantastic images on his site.  Unfortunately, I must have been 
focused more on color for some time, and those inks turned to sludge in 
the CIS.  Bacteria, according to MIS.  Could happen to any ink they 
say.  Ok, I say;  I have three 1160s with CISes and different inks, and 
it hasn't happened to any other inks in how ever many years CISes have 
been out- I was an early and enthusiastic adopter of those, too.  So I 
didn't try the MISes again.

So next week or so I'll be flushing my 7600 out and installing Cave 
Paints.  The reason is that it was getting time to get some new carts 
anyway, and I've been less than thrilled with UCs- not bad, just not as 
thrilled as I thought I'd be- and I recently had some images to print 
that included bright reds- not an easy color for pigment inkjet inks on 
matte paper.  Still, the reds were too dull, even compared to old 
Generations ink prints.  I talked to several people in the know, and 
Cave Paints came out on top.  Now, the one failing of Cave Paints has 
been acknowledged to be in the blacks, however my source says that an 
improved black is due out next month.  So, for black and white, (and 
color, too), everything's going to be new again.

James




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-14 by Tom Baker

James  -
 
Everyone is improving.  IP6 - due out within weeks - is supposed to have improved color saturation.  Maybe this will address what you perceive as poor red.  And, then again, maybe not.  I've had good results from IP, even in the reds.  But, some papers are certainly better than others for IP and color.
 
Tom Baker
 


James Irelan <james@...> wrote:

On Saturday, March 13, 2004, at 04:19 PM, Ellie Kennard wrote:

> Interesting James,
>
> What do you use for your printing? (printer, inks, RIP, paper etc.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Ellie
>

Ellie,

I'm in somewhat of a flux now, as I have been using a 7600 with UCs and 
ImagePrint.  I have a set of CavePaints on order, and I am now using 
Colorburst most of the time.  However recently I had to print a black 
and white for someone, and in trying to use Colorburst, the print was- 
well, let's just say too dark.  I just have to find the right settings. 
  So I turned back to ImagePrint, which in my opinion is excellent for 
black and white.  My friend got a copy of Colorburst and said his black 
and whites were killer right out of the box, and he's a black and white 
expert, so I just picked the wrong included profile to try, and didn't 
have time to experiment right then.

In the past, I've used other things for black and white:  I jumped on 
Jon Cone's Piezography early, and despite disappointing early results, 
had some excellent results with it, too.  I tried the MIS inks with 
Paul Roarke's curves, and got good results there, too, although nothing 
like the fantastic images on his site.  Unfortunately, I must have been 
focused more on color for some time, and those inks turned to sludge in 
the CIS.  Bacteria, according to MIS.  Could happen to any ink they 
say.  Ok, I say;  I have three 1160s with CISes and different inks, and 
it hasn't happened to any other inks in how ever many years CISes have 
been out- I was an early and enthusiastic adopter of those, too.  So I 
didn't try the MISes again.

So next week or so I'll be flushing my 7600 out and installing Cave 
Paints.  The reason is that it was getting time to get some new carts 
anyway, and I've been less than thrilled with UCs- not bad, just not as 
thrilled as I thought I'd be- and I recently had some images to print 
that included bright reds- not an easy color for pigment inkjet inks on 
matte paper.  Still, the reds were too dull, even compared to old 
Generations ink prints.  I talked to several people in the know, and 
Cave Paints came out on top.  Now, the one failing of Cave Paints has 
been acknowledged to be in the blacks, however my source says that an 
improved black is due out next month.  So, for black and white, (and 
color, too), everything's going to be new again.

James




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-14 by James Irelan

On Saturday, March 13, 2004, at 05:43 PM, Tom Baker wrote:

> James  -
>
> Everyone is improving.  IP6 - due out within weeks - is supposed to 
> have improved color saturation.  Maybe this will address what you 
> perceive as poor red.  And, then again, maybe not.  I've had good 
> results from IP, even in the reds.  But, some papers are certainly 
> better than others for IP and color.
>
> Tom Baker
>
>
>

Tom,

I've got some ProfileMaker profile adjustments to try, also.  Some I've 
tried, with improvement, and some I haven't had time yet.
IP6 sounds pretty cool, especially the spit toning feature, if that 
pans out as advertised.  For right now, I'm putting my money into other 
things, but I'm still an IP fan.

But you're right about another thing, and this is about printing in 
general- things are improving all the time.  Inkjet printing is still 
in its infancy.  We're going round and round on which thing is best of 
things that didn't even exist five or six years ago.  I was talking 
yesterday to a friend about Stylus Pro XL  prints, and we were laughing 
about how fugitive the colors were even in prints that had been kept in 
the dark.  Back then you couldn't make a serious inkjet print at home.  
All that's changed already, and they keep coming up with new software, 
new media, new inks all the time.  I've been using this Entrada paper, 
and it looks and feels so nice that I keep working with it, but it 
seems trickier than others to profile.

James Irelan

RE: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-14 by MARK MAIO

My personal fine art work has been exclusively in B&W since I started in
photography 30 years ago. The process of how I made the transition from
sliver/fiber to digital was slow, calculated and mirrors the experience of
many on this list. The following are two anecdotes on the print quality of
what I am now able to achieve after beginning the digital journey four years
ago. 

A year into the process of learning the skills necessary to find a digital
workflow that worked for me, I had an appointment to show my portfolio to
the curator at a well known photography gallery here in Atlanta. Since I was
still early in the process of making the transition to digital, the majority
of my portfolio was silver/fiber. The curator knew my work but did not know
I had started printing digitally. I had included two prints done digitally
(Warm Neutral Piezography on Photo Rag), at the end of my presentation. She
liked my silver/fiber work and as she came to the first digital print she
said in a slightly excited voice, "I didn't know you were working in
platinum!". I knew then that I was on the right track.

Three years into the process of learning to print digitally, I decided to
purchase an Epson 7600 and convert it to Piezography. I found a local
photographer who had bought a 7600 new and four months into trying to use it
to setup a custom color digitally printing business, decided to sell it. I
bought it from him and when he learned I was going to convert it to quad
tone printing, he offered to help me set it up so he could see what it
entailed. My work area is in my basement and I have white walls with gallery
lighting to not only view and evaluate work prints, but I also use it as a
small gallery of my framed work. During the conversion, after one of the
many ink flush cycles, he started the film versus digital conversation many
of us have found ourselves in. As I am sure many of you have experienced,
his questions were based on what he read or heard from someone else. I kept
pointing out that instead of just asking or accepting someone else's
opinion, he needed to do the work himself. I kept repeating that only when
he did the work and saw the results, would he be able to make an informed
decision on what worked for him. He didn't want any part of the do your own
research conversation because he had read/heard that digital
capture/printing was not as good as doing it "traditionally". This exchange
was taking place in front of my gallery wall with the framed prints on it.
After the 20th. "I read that you can't make a digital print as good
as......" and getting my now standard do the work yourself and decide, he
points to my framed work and says in frustration, "You are telling me that a
digital print can give you the same quality as these prints?". When I
responded "You mean those digital prints?", the conversation ended.

Mark Maio

Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-14 by Clayton Jones

Hello Mark,

>The following are two anecdotes on the print quality of
>what I am now able to achieve after beginning the digital 
>journey four years ago. 

Excellent stories, thanks very much.  It drives the point home better
than all the reasoned arguments.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-15 by teelions@yahoo.com

>...  I've been using this Entrada paper, 
> and it looks and feels so nice that I keep working with it, but it 
> seems trickier than others to profile.
> 
> James Irelan

James,

Moab has free profiles for all of their papers for the Epson 2200 and 
7600 printers right on their site: 
http://www.moabpaper.com/settings.htm

They will also create custom profiles for you using their profiling 
kit which you can download from that page.

I use the Entrada Fine Art 190 as my standard mat papar. I love both 
it's look and it's price.

Terry
www.tlphoto.net

Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-15 by luisvcool

Terry, do they have the profiles mixed-up?  When I click under the 2200 profile for Entrada 
300 Natural for Apple, I seem to get a profile for a 7600.  When I click the 7600 one, I get 
what appears to be the profile for the 2200.

Anyone else notice this?


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, teelions@y... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >...  I've been using this Entrada paper, 
> > and it looks and feels so nice that I keep working with it, but it 
> > seems trickier than others to profile.
> > 
> > James Irelan
> 
> James,
> 
> Moab has free profiles for all of their papers for the Epson 2200 and 
> 7600 printers right on their site: 
> http://www.moabpaper.com/settings.htm
> 
> They will also create custom profiles for you using their profiling 
> kit which you can download from that page.
> 
> I use the Entrada Fine Art 190 as my standard mat papar. I love both 
> it's look and it's price.
> 
> Terry
> www.tlphoto.net

Cave Paints - blacks?

2004-03-15 by Tom Andrews

Hi James,

  I am exploring the possibility of converting my Epson 10000 to Cave Paints.  In post 
#42825 you commented as shown below. Could you provide more info on the 
acknowledged failing of Cave Paints in the blacks and who acknowledges this.  Also 
who is your source of info about new black ink?  Are you waiting for this new black 
before installing your Cave Paints?  Thanks,

Tom Andrews
http://www.wildlandart.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Snip< 

> So next week or so I'll be flushing my 7600 out and installing Cave 
> Paints.  

>Snip<

> Now, the one failing of Cave Paints has 
> been acknowledged to be in the blacks, however my source says that an 
> improved black is due out next month. 

>Snip<
> 
> James

Re: [Digital BW] Cave Paints - blacks?

2004-03-15 by James Irelan

On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 09:49 AM, Tom Andrews wrote:

> Hi James,
>
>   I am exploring the possibility of converting my Epson 10000 to Cave 
> Paints.  In post
> #42825 you commented as shown below. Could you provide more info on the
> acknowledged failing of Cave Paints in the blacks and who acknowledges 
> this.  Also
> who is your source of info about new black ink?  Are you waiting for 
> this new black
> before installing your Cave Paints?  Thanks,
>
> Tom Andrews
> http://www.wildlandart.com
>
>

Tom,

I first found out about Cave Paints from someone who tests for Lyson.  
He said that the inks had a better gamut, with the exception of the 
blacks, which were actually weaker than, say, the UCs.  This was 
confirmed by a reseller, inkjetgoodies, where I buy Entrada paper.  I 
don't know how vapor-like the prospect on the new black is, so, since 
he probably reads this list, I'll let him jump in and confirm that 
report if he wishes.  He doesn't tell me anything that is truly trade 
secret, so I'd probably be ok, but just to be sure, I'll just leave it 
at that.  And no, I'm not going to wait for the new black to install 
the inks.  If I knew a definite delivery date, I might, but since I 
don't, I'm going to just go ahead and install the inks.  Unfortunately, 
the reseller says that the pH of the Cave Paints and the UCs are 
different enough that they advise strongly against using some other 
black with the Cave Paints.

James Irelan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital output to match fiber based printing?

2004-03-15 by James Irelan

>
> James,
>
> Moab has free profiles for all of their papers for the Epson 2200 and
> 7600 printers right on their site:
> http://www.moabpaper.com/settings.htm
>
> They will also create custom profiles for you using their profiling
> kit which you can download from that page.
>
> I use the Entrada Fine Art 190 as my standard mat papar. I love both
> it's look and it's price.
>
> Terry
> www.tlphoto.net
>

Tom,

Thanks.  I agree on the paper.  I'm using ProfileMaker, which I'm just 
learning to use, and an
Eye One.  I expect to fine tune as I learn.

James Irelan




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Cave Paints - blacks?

2004-03-16 by johnglodge

Cave paint does not have a separate gloss and matte black; this is a 
compromise with the usual results.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, James Irelan 
<james@r...> wrote:
> 
> On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 09:49 AM, Tom Andrews wrote:
> 
> > Hi James,
> >
> >   I am exploring the possibility of converting my Epson 10000 to 
Cave 
> > Paints.  In post
> > #42825 you commented as shown below. Could you provide more info 
on the
> > acknowledged failing of Cave Paints in the blacks and who 
acknowledges 
> > this.  Also
> > who is your source of info about new black ink?  Are you waiting 
for 
> > this new black
> > before installing your Cave Paints?  Thanks,
> >
> > Tom Andrews
> > http://www.wildlandart.com
> >
> >
> 
> Tom,
> 
> I first found out about Cave Paints from someone who tests for 
Lyson.  
> He said that the inks had a better gamut, with the exception of 
the 
> blacks, which were actually weaker than, say, the UCs.  This was 
> confirmed by a reseller, inkjetgoodies, where I buy Entrada 
paper.  I 
> don't know how vapor-like the prospect on the new black is, so, 
since 
> he probably reads this list, I'll let him jump in and confirm that 
> report if he wishes.  He doesn't tell me anything that is truly 
trade 
> secret, so I'd probably be ok, but just to be sure, I'll just 
leave it 
> at that.  And no, I'm not going to wait for the new black to 
install 
> the inks.  If I knew a definite delivery date, I might, but since 
I 
> don't, I'm going to just go ahead and install the inks.  
Unfortunately, 
> the reseller says that the pH of the Cave Paints and the UCs are 
> different enough that they advise strongly against using some 
other 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> black with the Cave Paints.
> 
> James Irelan
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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