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Black Only printing technique: digital darkroom comments

Black Only printing technique: digital darkroom comments

2004-03-20 by spersky123

Hello,

After extensive research and reading and re-reading Clayton's site in 
addition to many other sites. I have decided what equipment I need in 
order to print Black and White succesfully from 35 mm prints.

Eboni ink from MIS for Epson 2200
Epson 2200
Nikon Coolscan V ED
Cheap Flat Bed scanner to make contact sheets.
Epson enhanced Matte paper.
Vuescan software (I already have this).
Photoshop CS ( I already have this).
Negative Developing supplies (I have this)

I develop my own film in Rodinal. I mainly use ilford FP4+ in 35 mm.  
I do not have a Darkroom just a changing bag and I plan to do just 
black and white printing.  Basically, that is my planned setup for my 
Digital Darkroom.  I will spend a  lot of money in the next few days 
and order this equipment.  Comments or advice is appreciated.  I 
consider this a starting point for my digital printing. I want to at 
least start with good equipment that I can experiment and grow with.  
Total cost is not much of an issue I have been saving for a while:)

thanks
Steve

Re: [Digital BW] Black Only printing technique: digital darkroom comments

2004-03-20 by Richard Sintchak

Saturday, March 20, 2004, 1:51:46 PM, you wrote:

s> Hello,

s> After extensive research and reading and re-reading Clayton's site in
s> addition to many other sites. I have decided what equipment I need in
s> order to print Black and White succesfully from 35 mm prints.

s> Eboni ink from MIS for Epson 2200
s> Epson 2200
s> Nikon Coolscan V ED
s> Cheap Flat Bed scanner to make contact sheets.
s> Epson enhanced Matte paper.
s> Vuescan software (I already have this).
s> Photoshop CS ( I already have this).
s> Negative Developing supplies (I have this)

s> I develop my own film in Rodinal. I mainly use ilford FP4+ in 35 mm.
s> I do not have a Darkroom just a changing bag and I plan to do just 
s> black and white printing.  Basically, that is my planned setup for my
s> Digital Darkroom.  I will spend a  lot of money in the next few days
s> and order this equipment.  Comments or advice is appreciated.  I 
s> consider this a starting point for my digital printing. I want to at
s> least start with good equipment that I can experiment and grow with.
s> Total cost is not much of an issue I have been saving for a while:)

s> thanks
s> Steve

Steve,

One quick comment.  Although my experience with Rodinal is fairly
limited, and I have not used it with FP4, any time I have used it I
find that the negs produced are a greater challenge to scan well.
Mostly due to overly grainy look.  But that's something you can easily
change later if you decide the same.

-- 
Best regards,
 Richard                            mailto:richard@...

Re: [Digital BW] Black Only printing technique: digital darkroom comments

2004-03-21 by Max Clark

Steve-

If total cost really isn't much of an issue, I would
recommend that you consider going with an Epson 1280
printer and the UT2 inkset with CFS system.  This
gives more options and control than the BO printing
method, and the 1280 can be had for quite a bit less
that the 2200.  So, what you save in buying the
printer you can use to buy the UT2 CFS system.

You can still try the BO method with this system as
well, but I think you will be hooked on the results
the UT2 system provides.

Just something to consider.


--- spersky123 <spersky@...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> After extensive research and reading and re-reading
> Clayton's site in 
> addition to many other sites. I have decided what
> equipment I need in 
> order to print Black and White succesfully from 35
> mm prints.
> 
> Eboni ink from MIS for Epson 2200
> Epson 2200
> Nikon Coolscan V ED
> Cheap Flat Bed scanner to make contact sheets.
> Epson enhanced Matte paper.
> Vuescan software (I already have this).
> Photoshop CS ( I already have this).
> Negative Developing supplies (I have this)
> 
> I develop my own film in Rodinal. I mainly use
> ilford FP4+ in 35 mm.  
> I do not have a Darkroom just a changing bag and I
> plan to do just 
> black and white printing.  Basically, that is my
> planned setup for my 
> Digital Darkroom.  I will spend a  lot of money in
> the next few days 
> and order this equipment.  Comments or advice is
> appreciated.  I 
> consider this a starting point for my digital
> printing. I want to at 
> least start with good equipment that I can
> experiment and grow with.  
> Total cost is not much of an issue I have been
> saving for a while:)
> 
> thanks
> Steve
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________
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Re: Black Only printing technique: digital darkroom comments

2004-03-21 by Bob Michaels

Steve: What you list will certainly work well. But it's actually more
than you "need". Maybe it's just what you "want". If so, go ahead. 

I prefer a $40 light table to view negs rather than make contact
prints. I'm not sure how good they come out on a flatbed anyway. That
might need a huge file size. The 2200 is a very good printer but I
still believe the 1280 is just as good if print quality is the
criteria. Coolscan V is probably a very good scanner. But up to 11x14
for sure, I don't think you can tell the difference between that an
most 2820 scanners at half the price. I'd be ordering a 2200 and/or
Coolscan V or 5000 tonight if I thought they'd made my prints look
better. But that only comes from user skill. 

Plan on buying a lot of paper, a lot of ink, and printing a lot.
That's the key to good prints. Sort of like shooting $1,500 worth of
film will get you better photos than a new $1,500 camera.

But then sometimes, I'm just too practical to be much fun. 

Bob Michaels

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "spersky123"
<spersky@s...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hello,
> 
> After extensive research and reading and re-reading Clayton's site in 
> addition to many other sites. I have decided what equipment I need in 
> order to print Black and White succesfully from 35 mm prints.
> 
> Eboni ink from MIS for Epson 2200
> Epson 2200
> Nikon Coolscan V ED
> Cheap Flat Bed scanner to make contact sheets.
> Epson enhanced Matte paper.
> Vuescan software (I already have this).
> Photoshop CS ( I already have this).
> Negative Developing supplies (I have this)
> 
> I develop my own film in Rodinal. I mainly use ilford FP4+ in 35 mm.  
> I do not have a Darkroom just a changing bag and I plan to do just 
> black and white printing.  Basically, that is my planned setup for my 
> Digital Darkroom.  I will spend a  lot of money in the next few days 
> and order this equipment.  Comments or advice is appreciated.  I 
> consider this a starting point for my digital printing. I want to at 
> least start with good equipment that I can experiment and grow with.  
> Total cost is not much of an issue I have been saving for a while:)
> 
> thanks
> Steve

Re: Black Only printing technique: digital darkroom comments

2004-03-21 by spersky123

Thanks for the advice.  I plan to eventually get the UT7 inkset for 
the epson 2200 printer in the next few weeks (when it is released).  
I am not ready for a CIS system yet, I still need a good workflow 
with all my new equipment.

Btw, I just ordered everything.  I will be up in running in a week. 
Hopefully.

thanks for the advice.
Steve

Re: Black Only printing technique: digital darkroom comments

2004-03-21 by jim0266

> Cheap Flat Bed scanner to make contact sheets.
> Epson enhanced Matte paper.
> Vuescan software (I already have this).
> Photoshop CS ( I already have this).
> Negative Developing supplies (I have this)
> 
> I develop my own film in Rodinal. I mainly use ilford FP4+ in 35
mm.  
> I do not have a Darkroom just a changing bag and I plan to do just 
> black and white printing.  Basically, that is my planned setup for
my 
> Digital Darkroom.  I will spend a  lot of money in the next few
days 
> and order this equipment.  Comments or advice is appreciated.  I 
> consider this a starting point for my digital printing. I want to
at 
> least start with good equipment that I can experiment and grow
with.  
> Total cost is not much of an issue I have been saving for a while:)

The only good way I've found to make contacts with a flatbed is to use
one with a transparency adapter. See
http://www.jimarnold.org/112003a.jpg for the quality I can get with a
TA. I'm currently using a Umax Powerlook 1000. Warning. This is a 3.3
meg jpeg.

Like Bob I wonder if a 2200 is more printer than you need for B&W
printing. I went throught the same exercise a few months back and
opted for the 1280. I print at 1440 on my 1280. Even when printing
at 11x14 I can't see a difference between 1440 and 2880 dpi. It just
takes _a lot longer_ to get a print.  My printer is now set with a CF
eboni black system and an inexpensive $5 MIS color cart. I had planned
to try QuadtoneRIP on my Mac as well, but the results I got off the
bat with BO printing looked so good I didn't see a need to hassle with
Quad printing. Einstein once "Everything should be made as simple as
possible, but not simpler." BO printing fits that philosophy
perfectly.

Have fun.

--Jim

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Black Only printing technique: digital darkroom comments

2004-03-21 by D. Hill

Pretty much what I learned from a Black Only excange
we had a while ago is that the 1280 and 2200 can have
identical BO output.

You do have to "trick" the 1280 into printing black
only at 2880 dpi - but the output is the same.  The
2200 is supposedly faster, but who really cares as the
1280 is half the price

Don



> 
> Like Bob I wonder if a 2200 is more printer than you
> need for B&W
> printing. I went throught the same exercise a few
> months back and
> opted for the 1280. I print at 1440 on my 1280. Even
> when printing
> at 11x14 I can't see a difference between 1440 and
> 2880 dpi. It just
> takes _a lot longer_ to get a print.  My printer is
> now set with a CF
> eboni black system and an inexpensive $5 MIS color
> cart. I had planned
> to try QuadtoneRIP on my Mac as well, but the
> results I got off the
> bat with BO printing looked so good I didn't see a
> need to hassle with
> Quad printing. Einstein once "Everything should be
> made as simple as
> possible, but not simpler." BO printing fits that
> philosophy
> perfectly.
> 
> Have fun.
> 
> --Jim
> 
> 


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Re: Black Only printing technique: digital darkroom comments

2004-03-21 by Clayton Jones

Hello Steve,

Congrats on launching your new adventure.  I hope it goes well.

>Eboni ink from MIS for Epson 2200
>Epson 2200

I read all the replies to your post so far, and I both agree and
disagree with them regarding the 1280 vs 2200 BO print quality.

I agree in that in many cases 1280 prints look as good as the 2200,
but there are also cases where they don't look as good - it depends a
lot on the print and its size.  As far as BO goes I see two primary
differences in the printers: the 2200 resolution is 2880x1440 vs the
1280's 2880x720, and also the 2200 uses a different dither pattern.
These differences show up in three areas:

1) Tonal gradation in large smooth mid-tone areas - the 2200 dither
pattern is much tighter in these areas and it looks smoother.  It can
be noticeable if the print has significant smooth areas in those tonal
ranges.  It also seems to be more accurate in rendering film grain
when the print size and scan quality is enough to show it.  This may
make a significant difference with your 35mm Rodinal prints.

2) Dither banding - there is generally more of it with the 1280.  It's
usually not visible without a loupe, but on occasion if there is a
smooth area that happens to fall right on the zone where the banding
is most pronounced it can be noticeable without magnification and can
affect the overall appearance of the print.  I see much less of that
in 2200 prints.

3) Fine detail - resolution is resolution; 2880x720 and 2880x1440 are
not the same.  Very fine details are rendered with more exact
definition, clearly visible with a loupe.  Again, whether this
actually affects the general impression if the print depends a lot on
what's in the image and how big it is.  An image with a lot of tiny
but important detail can look significantly better over all.

It's true that these differences are subtle, but to deny that they
exist I think is mistaken.  Whether they are important enough to
affect a purchase decision is an individual matter.  With BO we are in
an uphill battle right out of the starting gate with the lack of
continuous tone blending, so it seems to me that, if we choose to work
in this technique, every little bit helps.  I have spent over two
years now dedicated to BO work and have seen many prints sent to me by
others as well as my own.  I love it and want to get the best possible
quality, so for me the difference is worth the extra cost.

In addition, over the past few weeks Paul Roark has been working with
a 2200 and finds the added ink controls are very useful with the UT
inks and certain papers.  He recently made some very positive comments
about this printer.  I plan to try the UT7 inks when they are
available and I may switch if I like the results.  Regardless of what
I do, I think these inks will be a major player in the future and, if
Paul's observations are corrct, the 2200 will be a more versatile
printer for using them.  

Another thing to consider if you stick with BO is the inks you use if
you want to do color prints.  With the 2200 you get the UC pigment
inks and their ability to print on glossy paper with Photo Black.

So I support you in your decision for the 2200 - I think it was a wise
one.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm







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