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Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-20 by chipcarterdc

I'm hoping you all can help out here with figuring out what options are 
available for grayscale inksets in 44inch Epson models.  I know that the 
various options have been discussed in bits and pieces over time, but I'm 
trying to get the big picture.  Here's what I think I know -- please add, correct, 
disagree, etc.

(1) Epson 9600 w. PiezoTone inks, NOT, as I understand it, with the Piezo B&
W ICC system -- if I read their website correctly, this is not currently an option 
with the 9600 unless you get StudioPrint RIP, which only runs on Windows (I 
have a Mac).  If anyone cares to elaborate on the differences between the 
PiezoTone system and the Piezo B&W ICC system, I'd appreciate it (Inkjetmall 
does have an FAQ on the differences, but it's written under the assumption 
that you already know how the PiezoTones system works, which I don't)

(2) Epson 9000 w. Piezo B&W ICC system (I have no idea what the 
differences would be of the 9000 v. the 9600 for grayscale inks, nor do I know 
if you can even still buy a 9000 anywhere)

(3) Epson 9600 w. the Septone system, EXCEPT this is only an option if you 
run Windows.  The Photoshop plug-in does work for Mac, but only works for 
the 2200.  (Same is true for Septone with the 9000)

(4) Epson 9600 w. MIS's UltraTone 7 system (not yet available)

So, if I'm understanding the options correctly, there is currently no grayscale 
inkset for the 9600 that will work with Mac (short of running Virtual PC).  
Meaning, for wide-format grayscale inks, either (a) find a 9000 (if you have a 
Mac) or (b) buy a Windows computer.

Any options I'm missing?

Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-20 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> I'm hoping you all can help out here with figuring out what options are 
> available for grayscale inksets in 44inch Epson models.  I know that the 
> various options have been discussed in bits and pieces over time, but I'm 
> trying to get the big picture.  Here's what I think I know -- please add, correct, 
> disagree, etc.
> 
> (1) Epson 9600 w. PiezoTone inks, NOT, as I understand it, with the Piezo B&
> W ICC system -- if I read their website correctly, this is not currently an option 
> with the 9600 unless you get StudioPrint RIP, which only runs on Windows (I 
> have a Mac).  If anyone cares to elaborate on the differences between the 
> PiezoTone system and the Piezo B&W ICC system, I'd appreciate it (Inkjetmall 
> does have an FAQ on the differences, but it's written under the assumption 
> that you already know how the PiezoTones system works, which I don't)
> 
> (2) Epson 9000 w. Piezo B&W ICC system (I have no idea what the 
> differences would be of the 9000 v. the 9600 for grayscale inks, nor do I know 
> if you can even still buy a 9000 anywhere)
> 
> (3) Epson 9600 w. the Septone system, EXCEPT this is only an option if you 
> run Windows.  The Photoshop plug-in does work for Mac, but only works for 
> the 2200.  (Same is true for Septone with the 9000)
> 
> (4) Epson 9600 w. MIS's UltraTone 7 system (not yet available)
> 
> So, if I'm understanding the options correctly, there is currently no grayscale 
> inkset for the 9600 that will work with Mac (short of running Virtual PC).  
> Meaning, for wide-format grayscale inks, either (a) find a 9000 (if you have a 
> Mac) or (b) buy a Windows computer.
> 
> Any options I'm missing?

Hi Chip,

Did you get QTR and blending to work for your 9600?   It's not a dedicated
B&W setup but a lot of people are satisfied with the black and light-black
results.  (They have bought ImagePrint for that capability).  It's very close
to a full B&W set.  If you still want a light-gray ink for the ultimate in smooth
highlights you could replace Cyan or Magenta with a light gray ink from
MIS Ultratones.  There was some interest in doing this for the 2200 but
I think in the end the standard results (UC inks with QTR) were so close that
people figured on keeping the color capability.

Anyway I'm curious what you think about the current B&W results and
whether you really feel it necessary to go for a light-gray.

Roy

Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-20 by chipcarterdc

Hi Roy, I did indeed get QTR up and running for the 9600 and also have 
experience with ImagePrint for my 2200.  I have not yet tried blending options 
w. QTR to get what, in my opinion, is close to "neutral." (I think you suggested 
a blending mode of 85% cool or Cool Selenium to 15% Warm, which is what 
I'll try).  Still on my to-do list.

I'm exploring the grayscale inkset options basically just to know what my 
options are.  I have a business idea to offer printing services to local photogs.  
My reasoning as to why a grayscale inkset might be needed for that purpose 
is this: if I, as someone who's been exploring this for over 2 years now, am still 
a bit skeptical that a system that uses color inks to make B&W can be as good 
as 6 or 7 gray inks, I imagine that customers who have done a lot less 
experimentation will be at least as skeptical.  (On the other hand, the 
ignorance (I don't mean that pejoratively) of the client base could work in my 
favor, given that most people have no idea of what metamerism is, what the 
grayscale ink options available are, etc).  I have not yet held in my hands and 
compared with my own eyes a print made with a grayscale inkset to one 
made with ImagePrint or QTR and the split of opinion among those who have 
still seems significant, e.g., all the passionate statements by people who 
swear B&W prints w. ImagePrint or QTR and UltraChrome inks are just as 
good as w. grayscale inks are counterbalanced by those who argue equally 
passionately that this is not the case.

However, I may just opt out of the whole grayscale insket thing and go for a 
software-based solution.  It would certainly save me a lot of $ and worries 
about clogging, etc.  If I stick purely to personal printing, I'm 90% convinced 
that's what I'll do.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <
roy@h...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
> <chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> > I'm hoping you all can help out here with figuring out what options are 
> > available for grayscale inksets in 44inch Epson models.  I know that the 
> > various options have been discussed in bits and pieces over time, but I'm 
> > trying to get the big picture.  Here's what I think I know -- please add, 
correct, 
> > disagree, etc.
> > 
> > (1) Epson 9600 w. PiezoTone inks, NOT, as I understand it, with the Piezo 
B&
> > W ICC system -- if I read their website correctly, this is not currently an 
option 
> > with the 9600 unless you get StudioPrint RIP, which only runs on 
Windows (I 
> > have a Mac).  If anyone cares to elaborate on the differences between the 
> > PiezoTone system and the Piezo B&W ICC system, I'd appreciate it 
(Inkjetmall 
> > does have an FAQ on the differences, but it's written under the assumption 
> > that you already know how the PiezoTones system works, which I don't)
> > 
> > (2) Epson 9000 w. Piezo B&W ICC system (I have no idea what the 
> > differences would be of the 9000 v. the 9600 for grayscale inks, nor do I 
know 
> > if you can even still buy a 9000 anywhere)
> > 
> > (3) Epson 9600 w. the Septone system, EXCEPT this is only an option if 
you 
> > run Windows.  The Photoshop plug-in does work for Mac, but only works 
for 
> > the 2200.  (Same is true for Septone with the 9000)
> > 
> > (4) Epson 9600 w. MIS's UltraTone 7 system (not yet available)
> > 
> > So, if I'm understanding the options correctly, there is currently no 
grayscale 
> > inkset for the 9600 that will work with Mac (short of running Virtual PC).  
> > Meaning, for wide-format grayscale inks, either (a) find a 9000 (if you have 
a 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > Mac) or (b) buy a Windows computer.
> > 
> > Any options I'm missing?
> 
> Hi Chip,
> 
> Did you get QTR and blending to work for your 9600?   It's not a dedicated
> B&W setup but a lot of people are satisfied with the black and light-black
> results.  (They have bought ImagePrint for that capability).  It's very close
> to a full B&W set.  If you still want a light-gray ink for the ultimate in smooth
> highlights you could replace Cyan or Magenta with a light gray ink from
> MIS Ultratones.  There was some interest in doing this for the 2200 but
> I think in the end the standard results (UC inks with QTR) were so close that
> people figured on keeping the color capability.
> 
> Anyway I'm curious what you think about the current B&W results and
> whether you really feel it necessary to go for a light-gray.
> 
> Roy

Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-20 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc"
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:

Chip, this is based on my own stubborn opinions, but also on experience-

> (1) Epson 9600 w. PiezoTone inks...

I've heard nothing about a release date for x600 profiles. I use a
9600 with Piezotone inks with StudioPrint.

> (2) Epson 9000 w. Piezo B&W ICC system (I have no idea what the 
> differences would be of the 9000 v. the 9600 for grayscale inks, nor
do I know 
> if you can even still buy a 9000 anywhere)

As Steve recently posted, used 9000s (or 9500s) can be found for very
good prices. I haven't heard that the icc profiles are out yet for the
9000 either, but haven't checked in a while. With quads, the quality
difference will be nearly undetectable to the eye, however if you go
with a system that allows you to use different ink tanks for different
purposes like StudioPrint or QTR (I think), 7 inks instead of 6 can be
a plus, but may not be worth the extra price. Many are using the 6 ink
printers with Piezotones and StudioPrint doing everything they want to
do well without the extra ink tank. You'd be hard pressed to justify
the additional cost of a 9600 for the vast majority of quad work.

> (3) Epson 9600 w. the Septone system, EXCEPT this is only an option
if you 
> run Windows.  The Photoshop plug-in does work for Mac, but only
works for 
> the 2200.  (Same is true for Septone with the 9000)
> 
> (4) Epson 9600 w. MIS's UltraTone 7 system (not yet available)

I can't comment on these two options, well I could but it would be BS.
But I will say this- if you are really considering doing print for pay
I would highly recommend a system you can hardware linearize. You need
to keep your output stable, if someone comes to you in two months and
wants an additional print just like the last one, and you have some
goofy new batch of paper, what will you do? The most obvious options
for that are QTR and StudioPrint. Also, you need to be utilizing tools
and materials that are somewhat stable in the marketplace. I'd bet Roy
wil be around a while, Ergosoft certainly will be. Even though I'm a
hard core Mac guy, I went with StudioPrint, considering the overall
cost of getting everything up and going, the additional PC wasn't a
huge burden. If you want to stay Mac only, I think Roy has your best
current option. I've heard ImagePrint will have a new version with
some more advanced quad controls, but it never seems to be released.
I have heard of custom shops using the large format Septone system,
also one using MIS quads with ImagePrint.

RE: [Digital BW] Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-21 by Paul Roark

The UT1 inkset is running in 7000, 7500, 9000 and 9500 printers.  The curves
I made for my 7500 using the 7000 driver work on the 9000.  The 7000/9000
driver must be used for my curves, so Macs have problems with the 7500 and
9500.  PCs have no trouble running the 7500 & 9500 with the 7000 & 9000
drivers.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
___________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: chipcarterdc [mailto:chipcarterdc@...] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 9:47 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format
Epsons (request)

I'm hoping you all can help out here with figuring out what options are 
available for grayscale inksets in 44inch Epson models.  I know that the 
various options have been discussed in bits and pieces over time, but I'm 
trying to get the big picture.  Here's what I think I know -- please add,
correct, 
disagree, etc.

(1) Epson 9600 w. PiezoTone inks, NOT, as I understand it, with the Piezo B&
W ICC system -- if I read their website correctly, this is not currently an
option 
with the 9600 unless you get StudioPrint RIP, which only runs on Windows (I 
have a Mac).  If anyone cares to elaborate on the differences between the 
PiezoTone system and the Piezo B&W ICC system, I'd appreciate it (Inkjetmall

does have an FAQ on the differences, but it's written under the assumption 
that you already know how the PiezoTones system works, which I don't)

(2) Epson 9000 w. Piezo B&W ICC system (I have no idea what the 
differences would be of the 9000 v. the 9600 for grayscale inks, nor do I
know 
if you can even still buy a 9000 anywhere)

(3) Epson 9600 w. the Septone system, EXCEPT this is only an option if you 
run Windows.  The Photoshop plug-in does work for Mac, but only works for 
the 2200.  (Same is true for Septone with the 9000)

(4) Epson 9600 w. MIS's UltraTone 7 system (not yet available)

So, if I'm understanding the options correctly, there is currently no
grayscale 
inkset for the 9600 that will work with Mac (short of running Virtual PC).  
Meaning, for wide-format grayscale inks, either (a) find a 9000 (if you have
a 
Mac) or (b) buy a Windows computer.

Any options I'm missing?




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Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-21 by Clayton Jones

Hello Chip,

>still a bit skeptical that a system that uses color inks to make B&W 
>can be as good as 6 or 7 gray inks, 

I have seen IP5 prints and they look terrific.  What bothers me about
them is the cyan and magenta inks.  I am not convinced that they won't
fade sooner than the blacks and change the print tone over time.   
Besides the strictly technical question, I have an uncomfortable sort
of "itch" about having the color inks in there.  I'm more comfortable
sticking with pure carbon inks.  In addition, if having no dots is
important then IP doesn't make the grade.  The different colored dots
are easily seen with a loupe.  If I were to spend money on a
"solution" I would want it to be dotless and carbon only.  I haven't
found anything yet to make me part with my money, so I'm sticking with
BO for now.  I'm looking forward to trying UT7 on my 2200.  Bob at MIS
says it should be "soon".


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-21 by Roy Harrington

There seems to be an ongoing notion that there are two distinct kinds
of B&W prints: some made with pure carbon inks and others that use
color inks and therefore somehow inferior.  But all of the methods
that produce neutral-tone B&W involve color pigments.  The majority
is always carbon pigment, but they all have color pigment added to 
give the desired color.  If you use Piezotone Selenium everything is
mixed together in the bottle so you can't "see" what's there.  If instead
you use UltraChrome inks with a RIP such as QuadToneRIP or ImagePrint,
the mixing of the inks is under control of the software.  You are right
that with a loupe you can see the different colors, but to the naked-eye
it all blends together.   The dotlessness of the different methods is
mostly a matter of delivering a small enough quantity of pigment to
an individual dot.  With older printers the volume of ink was large so
diluting the ink gave you a smaller amount of pigment -- you needed
about 4 different dilutions hence a quadtone.  With the newer printers
the volume of ink per drop has been greatly reduced so all these
7 ink UC printers are getting away with 2 dilutions.  Your BO prints
even get away with just one dilution.  

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hello Chip,
> 
> >still a bit skeptical that a system that uses color inks to make B&W 
> >can be as good as 6 or 7 gray inks, 
> 
> I have seen IP5 prints and they look terrific.  What bothers me about
> them is the cyan and magenta inks.  I am not convinced that they won't
> fade sooner than the blacks and change the print tone over time.   
> Besides the strictly technical question, I have an uncomfortable sort
> of "itch" about having the color inks in there.  I'm more comfortable
> sticking with pure carbon inks.  In addition, if having no dots is
> important then IP doesn't make the grade.  The different colored dots
> are easily seen with a loupe.  If I were to spend money on a
> "solution" I would want it to be dotless and carbon only.  I haven't
> found anything yet to make me part with my money, so I'm sticking with
> BO for now.  I'm looking forward to trying UT7 on my 2200.  Bob at MIS
> says it should be "soon".
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-21 by Clayton Jones

Hello Roy,

>There seems to be an ongoing notion that there are two distinct kinds
>of B&W prints: some made with pure carbon inks and others that use
>color inks and therefore somehow inferior.  But all of the methods
>that produce neutral-tone B&W involve color pigments.  The majority
>is always carbon pigment, but they all have color pigment added to 
>give the desired color.  

In a recent phone conversation with Bob at MIS he expressed his own
doubts about the RIP approach, echoing my own concerns.  The
implication (as I interpreted his remarks) was that the amount of
color pigments (which he said are made of "various polyesters") used
in the RIP technique is greater than the tiny amounts mixed into the
carbon inks of gray scale sets (I don't know if anyone has actually
calculated the difference).  He said that the mixed in amounts are not
significant enough to affect the "carbon status" of the inks.  Paul
Roark recently expressed similar concerns (see msg #43963, 4/16/04).

Of course longevity is relative.  I don't remember exact Wilhelm
numbers, but I do recall reading that the carbon blacks outlasted the
color pigments in one of his tests.  If the cyan/magenta dots in a RIP
print last 70 years and the black lasts 100 then you have a 70 year
print.  Is that "archival" enough?  Will a gray scale ink print
outlast a RIP print?  Will a pure carbon Eboni BO print last even
longer?  Nobody seems to have a definitive answer.

My own tests give me doubts about pigments.  I have a Septone print
(multi-tone gray scale inks) on my windowsill that began showing signs
of fading at 125 days.  Right beside it is an Eboni BO print (both on
PhotoRag) that is over 150 days now with no signs of fading.   Of
course that's an unfair torture test (bright daylight and a small
amount of direct sunlight every day), but it nevertheless shows a
difference in the inks.  I plan to do a windowsill test on a UT7 print
when it's available.

So...what to make of all this?  I don't know, I just have doubts about
the colored dots.  If I'm going to have dots I guess I prefer them
to be all black <g>.  The only thing I do have some confidence about
is I can say that my prints are pure carbon ink prints and that Eboni
ranks among the highest (if not _the_ highest) in longevity ratings. 
Beyond that, I'm just waiting to see what happens next.

Do you know if there are there any gray scale inks without toners,
just dilutions of black carbon ink?

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-21 by ccolbertbw

I find it hard to believe that "mixing" the colors in the bottle requires so much less color 
pigment than separately applied dots that it has a differential effect on longevity. Perhaps 
it is an issue at the extreme (e.g., very cold where lots of blue is applied), but I would 
guess that an equivalent cold ink wouldn't have all that much less color pigment. 


Costa Colbert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> In a recent phone conversation with Bob at MIS he expressed his own
> doubts about the RIP approach, echoing my own concerns.  The
> implication (as I interpreted his remarks) was that the amount of
> color pigments (which he said are made of "various polyesters") used
> in the RIP technique is greater than the tiny amounts mixed into the
> carbon inks of gray scale sets (I don't know if anyone has actually
> calculated the difference).  He said that the mixed in amounts are not
> significant enough to affect the "carbon status" of the inks.  Paul
> Roark recently expressed similar concerns (see msg #43963, 4/16/04).
>
> 
> My own tests give me doubts about pigments.  I have a Septone print
> (multi-tone gray scale inks) on my windowsill that began showing signs
> of fading at 125 days.  Right beside it is an Eboni BO print (both on
> PhotoRag) that is over 150 days now with no signs of fading.   Of
> course that's an unfair torture test (bright daylight and a small
> amount of direct sunlight every day), but it nevertheless shows a
> difference in the inks.  I plan to do a windowsill test on a UT7 print
> when it's available.
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-21 by hogarth

The way I see it, it's not just about the amount of pigments. It's also
about how they are applied when making the print. The "joy" of a fixed
color ink set is that each dot on the print is the same color. If there
is fading, even differential fading, it occurs evenly across the print.

When you print with color inks (Ultrachromes, or variable tone inks) you
are putting dots on the print which are different colors. If there is
differential fading, you can more easily get a color shift, or a color
cast across the print.

Does this mean anything in practice? It's your money - you get to
choose.



On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 08:38, ccolbertbw wrote:

> I find it hard to believe that "mixing" the colors in the bottle requires so much less color 
> pigment than separately applied dots that it has a differential effect on longevity. Perhaps 
> it is an issue at the extreme (e.g., very cold where lots of blue is applied), but I would 
> guess that an equivalent cold ink wouldn't have all that much less color pigment. 
> 
> 
> Costa Colbert
> 
> > In a recent phone conversation with Bob at MIS he expressed his own
> > doubts about the RIP approach, echoing my own concerns.  The
> > implication (as I interpreted his remarks) was that the amount of
> > color pigments (which he said are made of "various polyesters") used
> > in the RIP technique is greater than the tiny amounts mixed into the
> > carbon inks of gray scale sets (I don't know if anyone has actually
> > calculated the difference).  He said that the mixed in amounts are not
> > significant enough to affect the "carbon status" of the inks.  Paul
> > Roark recently expressed similar concerns (see msg #43963, 4/16/04).
> >
> > 
> > My own tests give me doubts about pigments.  I have a Septone print
> > (multi-tone gray scale inks) on my windowsill that began showing signs
> > of fading at 125 days.  Right beside it is an Eboni BO print (both on
> > PhotoRag) that is over 150 days now with no signs of fading.   Of
> > course that's an unfair torture test (bright daylight and a small
> > amount of direct sunlight every day), but it nevertheless shows a
> > difference in the inks.  I plan to do a windowsill test on a UT7 print
> > when it's available.
> >


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-21 by chipcarterdc

> My own tests give me doubts about pigments.  I have a Septone print
> (multi-tone gray scale inks) on my windowsill that began showing signs
> of fading at 125 days.  Right beside it is an Eboni BO print (both on
> PhotoRag) that is over 150 days now with no signs of fading.   Of
> course that's an unfair torture test (bright daylight and a small
> amount of direct sunlight every day), but it nevertheless shows a
> difference in the inks.  I plan to do a windowsill test on a UT7 print
> when it's available.

That's a bit scary -- a Septone print showing signs of fading at 125 days?  
(Yes, I understand that,  as you said, this is not the kind of test that simulates 
"real world" conditions, but geez...).  Could you define exactly what signs of 
fading you're seeing?  A general fade in density of the whole image?  Blacks 
getting weaker?

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-21 by Ernst Dinkla

ccolbertbw wrote:
> I find it hard to believe that "mixing" the colors in the bottle requires so much less color 
> pigment than separately applied dots that it has a differential effect on longevity. Perhaps 
> it is an issue at the extreme (e.g., very cold where lots of blue is applied), but I would 
> guess that an equivalent cold ink wouldn't have all that much less color pigment. 
> 
> 
> Costa Colbert

My guess is that you need less colorant with an Ultrachrome 
inkset to get a tone throughout the greyscale range than when you 
want to achieve it with a colored quad inkset. Not much 
difference between the two in the shadows but from 50% to the 
highlights the dots are more separated and the separate color ink 
will benefit from the reflectance of the substrate while it isn't 
embedded in a grey ink that will reduce light transmission. Like 
in offset raster screens in the highlights the subtractive colour 
mixing isn't working perfect anymore. The white component starts 
to play a role. Profiling to get the correct (grey) color 
included of course. It has some similarity with the fact that the 
gamut of a CcMmYK inkset is slightly wider than that of a CMYK 
inkset, less white paper reflectance with the first (or as I 
think it should be said, a better subtractive mixing).

That you need less color ink in that range from 50% to the 
highlights doesn't mean that you actually get a better fade 
resistance or less color shift. It is far more likely that the 
print made with the Ultrachrome etc will show a color shift in 
the highlights later on. That's the part with Lc, Lm, Lk mixes 
with the right RIPs and for the Epson driver it is Lc, Lm and Y 
from 20% to 0% as far as I know.

For dyes there's also another thing happening, dyes brought 
together seem to give catalytic fading so in that case it is 
better to make a grey from less components as well. Wilhelm's 
latest PDF on his site.
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/WIR_ISTpresen_2004_02MMG_HW.html

We can't look in the ink kitchens of the ink manufacturers 
either, if a blue toner is made by adding some magenta + cyan dye 
or pigment and not with a single blue dye or pigment then there 
may not be the advantage of the better coloring strength + fade 
resistance of a single hue colorant.

In short I think that a colored quad ink will be better to avoid 
color shifts in time but not because there's less colorant in it !

As usual I'm struggling with the B&W terms for colorants = toners 
etc. If it can be restricted to a purely B&W discussion it might 
work but in this thread it isn't helping.

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-21 by Tom Baker

"....He said that the mixed in amounts are not
significant enough to affect the "carbon status" of the inks...."
 
Unless the fact that the 'color' is mixed with the 'carbon' has the effect of somehow inhibiting fading, the 'color' is still going to fade, giving the same overall image degredation.  Granted, in the non-mixed application, individual color dots would fade, while the carbon would not.  While in the 'mixed' environment each dot would fade/change color.  But, the overal result should be the same?
 
Tom Baker

Clayton Jones <cj@...> wrote:
Hello Roy,

>There seems to be an ongoing notion that there are two distinct kinds
>of B&W prints: some made with pure carbon inks and others that use
>color inks and therefore somehow inferior. But all of the methods
>that produce neutral-tone B&W involve color pigments. The majority
>is always carbon pigment, but they all have color pigment added to 
>give the desired color. 

In a recent phone conversation with Bob at MIS he expressed his own
doubts about the RIP approach, echoing my own concerns. The
implication (as I interpreted his remarks) was that the amount of
color pigments (which he said are made of "various polyesters") used
in the RIP technique is greater than the tiny amounts mixed into the
carbon inks of gray scale sets (I don't know if anyone has actually
calculated the difference). He said that the mixed in amounts are not
significant enough to affect the "carbon status" of the inks. Paul
Roark recently expressed similar concerns (see msg #43963, 4/16/04).

Of course longevity is relative. I don't remember exact Wilhelm
numbers, but I do recall reading that the carbon blacks outlasted the
color pigments in one of his tests. If the cyan/magenta dots in a RIP
print last 70 years and the black lasts 100 then you have a 70 year
print. Is that "archival" enough? Will a gray scale ink print
outlast a RIP print? Will a pure carbon Eboni BO print last even
longer? Nobody seems to have a definitive answer.

My own tests give me doubts about pigments. I have a Septone print
(multi-tone gray scale inks) on my windowsill that began showing signs
of fading at 125 days. Right beside it is an Eboni BO print (both on
PhotoRag) that is over 150 days now with no signs of fading. Of
course that's an unfair torture test (bright daylight and a small
amount of direct sunlight every day), but it nevertheless shows a
difference in the inks. I plan to do a windowsill test on a UT7 print
when it's available.

So...what to make of all this? I don't know, I just have doubts about
the colored dots. If I'm going to have dots I guess I prefer them
to be all black . The only thing I do have some confidence about
is I can say that my prints are pure carbon ink prints and that Eboni
ranks among the highest (if not _the_ highest) in longevity ratings. 
Beyond that, I'm just waiting to see what happens next.

Do you know if there are there any gray scale inks without toners,
just dilutions of black carbon ink?

Regards,
Clayton


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Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-21 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ccolbertbw"
<ccolbert@u...> wrote:
> I find it hard to believe that "mixing" the colors in the bottle
requires so much less color 
> pigment than separately applied dots that it has a differential
effect on longevity...

Let me add to the confusion. There was information some time ago,
possibly from John Nollendorfs, that two inks mixed in solution and
printed vrs the same two colors mixed "on paper" as separate dots,
would in fact have different longevity. My suspicion is that those
results would be different for different kinds of inks and nothing
definitive can be concluded about all ink mixed as such.
There is a pure carbon quad set, the Piezography Carbon Sepia set.
Bill Bergh had it specifically made with no color pigments. Cone's own
published RIT fade tests show that, much to everyone's suprise, the
tinted sets lasted longer.
Regarding Clayton's Septone fade test, MIS statements about pigment
quantity, etc., experience has shown me that we have NO idea what's in
anything we buy to an exact degree. Even if I naiveley thought these
people were in 100% disclosure, I don't think even they know
everything, they don't make the stuff, only contract it.
Who knows exactly what's in the Septone and Eboni (isn't that a
magazine? No, maybe it's carbon from hardwood forests) inks that
contributed to Clayton's results.
It would be nice to draw some general conclusions to live by, but
exceptions will come along and blow almost any of them. Only specific
conclusions from specific tests is really meaningful.
Like Clayton I'm suspicious of differential fade on mono images from
color inks. But only a mono fade test will tell the tale. Unlike Roy I
think quads are visually more photographic than other methods, and
don't become less relevant with smaller dots, only even more stunning.
But hey, I have to cling to a little turf <G>
I realize I only muddied the water, but thought some of that might be
of interest.
T

[Digital BW] Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (re

2004-04-21 by Clayton Jones

Hello Tom,

>Unless the fact that the 'color' is mixed with the 'carbon' has the 
>effect of somehow inhibiting fading, the 'color' is still going to 
>fade, giving the same overall image degredation.  Granted, in the 
>non-mixed application, individual color dots would fade, while the
>carbon would not.  While in the 'mixed' environment each dot would
>fade/change color.  But, the overal result should be the same?

Good question.  I have two thoughts about it:

1) In a RIP print a Cyan/Magenta dot is a fully exposed batch of that
ink.  In a mixed carbon ink the microscopic pigment particles are
surrounded by carbon particles, so maybe the pigment particles are
offered some protection by the surrounding carbon on that microscopic
level...

2) Because of the mixing on the microscopic level, I wonder if the
desired print toning can be achieved using less pigment?  This seemed
to be what Bob was implying.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-21 by Clayton Jones

Hello Chip,

>That's a bit scary -- a Septone print showing signs of fading at 125 
>days?  (Yes, I understand that,  as you said, this is not the kind of
>test that simulates "real world" conditions, but geez...).  Could
>you define exactly what signs of fading you're seeing?  A general 
>fade in density of the whole image?  Blacks getting weaker?

The test print was sent to me by Septone as part of the review I did
last summer for the Technical Print Exchange.  Along with several
samples on EEM, they sent one on PhotoRag, and the ink mixture was 25%
warm/75% cool.  The print consists of 5 separate images, one being
Paul's enhanced wedge, which is the part I used for the test.

I taped a 5/8" strip of 4-ply matt board over the middle of the wedge,
for its entire length, partly over the smooth ramp and partly over the
steps.  

I put it on my front windowsill.  The large picture window faces south
and has an awning, so the sill gets bright daylight all day but is
protected from direct sunlight for most of the day.  The print gets a
little bit of direct sunlight early in the morning and late in the
afternoon when the sun peeks in under the edges of the awning.  The
room is A/C during hot weather (South Florida) and no A/C in winter,
so the humidity and temperature vary quite a bit.

I wrote the beginning date on the print and peeked under the matt
board strip every now and then.  At 125 days I first noticed some
fading.  The fading is visible from 7% to 98% on the wedge.  Visually
it is less dense and warmer.

The beginning date was August 28, so it has been over 7 months now.
I am looking at it now as I write this.  I don't have a densitomer so
I can't give any numbers, but my impression is that the fading is
worse now than it was when I first noticed it.  So it apparently is
worsening.

The Eboni BO print (oops, it's on EAM, not PhotoRag) is dated November
5th, over 160 days now, and shows no signs of fading.

I also have an UltraChrome print on EAM (grayscale print using Epson
2200 driver - Cyan/Magenta dots visible, with MK) that is dated
September 17, over 200 days, that shows no signs of fading or color
shifting.  

The UC color pigments are holding up like the Eboni so far.  This
leads me to conclude that

1) The UC color pigments are very resiliant

2) The Septone inks must be using some dyes or poor quality pigments
to do the toning

Bob at MIS said their inks use tiny amounts of pigments in the carbon
grayscale inks, so I expect to get good results when I test UT7.  

I'll continue to monitor the UC print but I still am uncomfortable
about those color dots.  Maybe they'll last for years, but if
Wilhelm's tests show that carbon inks outlast the pigments, do they
still rate as "archival"?  Is there a strict definition of that term?
 Can a RIP print be called archival if it shows color shifting at 70
years and a pure carbon ink print lasts 100 or more?


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-21 by Carl Schofield

Clayton,

The latest Wilhelm data indicate a rating of >150 years for B&W prints 
made with the UC inks (Epson 4000) on EEM (bare bulb un-framed) and 
over 200 years if framed with UV inhibiting glass.

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson_sp4000.html

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wednesday, April 21, 2004, at 12:30  PM, Clayton Jones wrote:

> Hello Chip,
>
>> That's a bit scary -- a Septone print showing signs of fading at 125
>> days?  (Yes, I understand that,  as you said, this is not the kind of
>> test that simulates "real world" conditions, but geez...).  Could
>> you define exactly what signs of fading you're seeing?  A general
>> fade in density of the whole image?  Blacks getting weaker?
>
> The test print was sent to me by Septone as part of the review I did
> last summer for the Technical Print Exchange.  Along with several
> samples on EEM, they sent one on PhotoRag, and the ink mixture was 25%
> warm/75% cool.  The print consists of 5 separate images, one being
> Paul's enhanced wedge, which is the part I used for the test.
>
> I taped a 5/8" strip of 4-ply matt board over the middle of the wedge,
> for its entire length, partly over the smooth ramp and partly over the
> steps.
>
> I put it on my front windowsill.  The large picture window faces south
> and has an awning, so the sill gets bright daylight all day but is
> protected from direct sunlight for most of the day.  The print gets a
> little bit of direct sunlight early in the morning and late in the
> afternoon when the sun peeks in under the edges of the awning.  The
> room is A/C during hot weather (South Florida) and no A/C in winter,
> so the humidity and temperature vary quite a bit.
>
> I wrote the beginning date on the print and peeked under the matt
> board strip every now and then.  At 125 days I first noticed some
> fading.  The fading is visible from 7% to 98% on the wedge.  Visually
> it is less dense and warmer.
>
> The beginning date was August 28, so it has been over 7 months now.
> I am looking at it now as I write this.  I don't have a densitomer so
> I can't give any numbers, but my impression is that the fading is
> worse now than it was when I first noticed it.  So it apparently is
> worsening.
>
> The Eboni BO print (oops, it's on EAM, not PhotoRag) is dated November
> 5th, over 160 days now, and shows no signs of fading.
>
> I also have an UltraChrome print on EAM (grayscale print using Epson
> 2200 driver - Cyan/Magenta dots visible, with MK) that is dated
> September 17, over 200 days, that shows no signs of fading or color
> shifting.
>
> The UC color pigments are holding up like the Eboni so far.  This
> leads me to conclude that
>
> 1) The UC color pigments are very resiliant
>
> 2) The Septone inks must be using some dyes or poor quality pigments
> to do the toning
>
> Bob at MIS said their inks use tiny amounts of pigments in the carbon
> grayscale inks, so I expect to get good results when I test UT7.
>
> I'll continue to monitor the UC print but I still am uncomfortable
> about those color dots.  Maybe they'll last for years, but if
> Wilhelm's tests show that carbon inks outlast the pigments, do they
> still rate as "archival"?  Is there a strict definition of that term?
>  Can a RIP print be called archival if it shows color shifting at 70
> years and a pure carbon ink print lasts 100 or more?
>
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
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>
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RE: [Digital BW] Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-21 by Paul Roark

Tyler Boley wrote:

>--- ... "ccolbertbw" <ccolbert@u...> wrote:
>> I find it hard to believe that "mixing" the colors in the 
>>bottle requires so much less color pigment than separately applied 
>>dots that it has a differential effect on longevity...

>Let me add to the confusion. There was information some time ago,
>possibly from John Nollendorfs, that two inks mixed in solution and
>printed vrs the same two colors mixed "on paper" as separate dots,
>would in fact have different longevity. My suspicion is that those
>results would be different for different kinds of inks and nothing
>definitive can be concluded about all ink mixed as such.

I've assumed that mixing in the bottle v. on the paper makes little
difference, but I have not done a well-controlled test of this.  The
pigments would have to be the same, because the quality of same-color and
same-type pigments do vary.

Also, the base that is used might affect the outcome.  I have been notably
unsuccessful at using the Epson Archival color pigments in mixes.  (They
fade.)  I suspect the bases I have available damage the pigs. 

>There is a pure carbon quad set, the Piezography Carbon Sepia set.

I have tried also to keep the option of an essentially pure carbon print
possible with the Ultra Tone inksets.   It is true that minute amounts of
the toners end up in the deep shadows as needed to turn on the black ink,
but I'd guess it is so little that the effects on longevity would be nil.

>Bill Bergh had it specifically made with no color pigments. Cone's own
>published RIT fade tests show that, much to everyone's suprise, the
>tinted sets lasted longer.

These test results do make me wonder about the quality or completeness of
the information we are getting.  It may be, however, that the Cone sepia
really is "un-toned carbon," but that it is milled to particle sizes that
are so small they fade faster.  Ironically, the smaller the particle, the
larger the surface area to volume ratio is.  This larger
surface-area-to-volume causes faster oxidation, which is the cause of most
fading.

All my information indicates that carbon, on average and all else being
equal, is more stable that the color pigments now being used to tone it.
The Wilhelm tests are the most authoritative that are very consistent with
this.  (Carbon does yellow, however, and virtually everything fades.)

>... we have NO idea what's in anything we buy to an exact degree. 
>Even if I naiveley thought these people were in 100% disclosure, 
>I don't think even they know everything, they don't make the stuff, 
>only contract it.  Who knows exactly what's in the Septone and Eboni ...

So true.  I've been trying to learn more about pigments in general, and I'm
at the point where I doubt even the suppliers to those from whom we buy know
a lot about the chemistry of the pigments.

My brother's chemistry Ph.D. thesis was on carbon and he worked in that
field for years.  Even he is reluctant to speculate as to what is in the
"carbon" inks.  He guesses the core is graphite.  In graphite the carbon
molecules form plates (thus the lubricating quality).  The plates are rather
inert except at the edges.  There is apparently an entire sub-specialty of
chemistry that deals with these carbon edge effects.  

The large chemical companies (which I assume are the ultimate sources of
these pigments) are very unlikely to tell us or anyone else their trade
secrets.

Note that the Epson MSDS's make it appear that their black pigments are not
only carbon -- maybe not even predominantly carbon.  For example, the Epson
Light Black MSDS lists "carbon black" as < 1%."  "Proprietary dyes and
pigments" are "< 8%."  Then, of course, there are "proprietrary organic
materials" at "5% - 10%," and "glycerols" at "about 18%."  Water makes up
the balance.

I especially wonder what the "proprietary dyes and pigments" are.

I have tested the Epson UC and MIS UC clone blacks and light blacks against
each other, and they are very similar in the fade results I get.  I consider
them equal. 

The color-based grayscale patches I've tested tend to fade faster and shift
green (indicating a relatively weak magenta -- which is consistent with my
general pigment reading).  

The "carbon" only gray patches shift yellow -- but with a yellow channel
reading that is actually increasing in density.  That is, it's not "fading"
as such.  I could offset this with some yellow dye that would fade (the key
to my original FS-N "non-warming" inkset).  However, not only as a matter of
principal, but also due to Eboni's sensitivity to dyes on the parking pad, I
don't want to put any dyes into the mix.

My information suggests that the color pigments used in inkjet printing are
also organic (carbon-based).  (However, this does not mean that they will
not fade faster than carbon black.)  

>...Only specific conclusions from specific tests is really meaningful.

And even there one has to be careful about the test conditions and the
biases of the tester.

I, obviously, decided I had to do my own testing to get a handle on what was
going on.  I know they are not perfect, but all things considered, I intend
to rely mostly on my own testing and what Wilhelm reports.  (Yes, I trust
him more than some.) 

While we might agonize the details, the bottom line is that our
predominantly carbon (my best guess) pigments on buffered cotton paper are
very lightfast and archival (in dark storage).  The higher the percentage of
"carbon black" the more lightfast they appear to be.  (And I'm trying to
find toning pigments that make this caveat moot.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-21 by Clayton Jones

Hello Paul,

>...While we might agonize the details

Thanks very much, this info sheds a lot of light on the subject.  This
one is a keeper.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-21 by Clayton Jones

Hello Carl,

>The latest Wilhelm data indicate a rating of >150 years for B&W 
>prints made with the UC inks (Epson 4000) on EEM (bare bulb 
>un-framed) and over 200 years if framed with UV inhibiting glass.
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson_sp4000.html

Wow, the numbers keep getting better - thanks very much.  

Is there any sort of number associated with "archival"?


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

[Digital BW] Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-21 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
snip
>...It may be, however, that the Cone sepia
> really is "un-toned carbon," but that it is milled to particle sizes
that
> are so small they fade faster.  Ironically, the smaller the
particle, the
> larger the surface area to volume ratio is.  This larger
> surface-area-to-volume causes faster oxidation, which is the cause
of most
> fading.

In essence meaning that ink terned as carbon pigment alone does not
necessarily indicate more longevity. We can't necessarily take that as
insurance, there's more to it.

snip

> Note that the Epson MSDS's make it appear that their black pigments
are not
> only carbon -- maybe not even predominantly carbon.  For example,
the Epson
> Light Black MSDS lists "carbon black" as < 1%."  "Proprietary dyes and
> pigments" are "< 8%."  Then, of course, there are "proprietrary organic
> materials" at "5% - 10%," and "glycerols" at "about 18%."  Water
makes up
> the balance.

Giving them the benifit of the doubt and assuming that only "carbon
black" and "Proprietary dyes and pigments" are image forming, only
11+% of the image is carbon black, and if "proprietrary organic
materials" contribute any optical density, even less.

> The color-based grayscale patches I've tested tend to fade faster
and shift
> green (indicating a relatively weak magenta -- which is consistent
with my
> general pigment reading). 

I'm curious which color inks did this. I've seen straight Ultrachrome
B&W prints that look decent with good profiles, but would be very
uncertain of them remaining neutral over time.

> While we might agonize the details, the bottom line is that our
> predominantly carbon (my best guess) pigments on buffered cotton
paper are
> very lightfast and archival (in dark storage).  The higher the
percentage of
> "carbon black" the more lightfast they appear to be.  (And I'm trying to
> find toning pigments that make this caveat moot.)

I suspect there is too much agonizing. I have many many prints made
from the original Sundance Piezography quad inks, thought by most to
be the devil's brew. These date back to spring of 2000. Though none
have been sitting in the sun, they have seen normal display conditions
on and off and date back to spring of 2000.
Though a few have lightened and reddened abnormaly, the vast majority
of them look great. Those that don't were unprotected for extended
periods and I suspect exposed to atmospheric contaminants, many may be
about sometimes in a working art studio and industrial air. This kind
of thing may really be our biggest problem, many unkowns, and I
suspect also relevant to yellowing coatings.
Tyler

Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-21 by Roy Harrington

Hi Clayton,

I'm no ink expert, so a lot comes down to my gut feel.  I also totally
agree that much is unproven so its better to err on the conservative side.
If I had my druthers I'd probably want a gray set that was my most used
color and just use extra toner for variation from that.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> 
wrote:
> Hello Roy,
> 
> >There seems to be an ongoing notion that there are two distinct kinds
> >of B&W prints: some made with pure carbon inks and others that use
> >color inks and therefore somehow inferior.  But all of the methods
> >that produce neutral-tone B&W involve color pigments.  The majority
> >is always carbon pigment, but they all have color pigment added to 
> >give the desired color.  
> 
> In a recent phone conversation with Bob at MIS he expressed his own
> doubts about the RIP approach, echoing my own concerns.  The
> implication (as I interpreted his remarks) was that the amount of
> color pigments (which he said are made of "various polyesters") used
> in the RIP technique is greater than the tiny amounts mixed into the
> carbon inks of gray scale sets (I don't know if anyone has actually

I don't see anyway that the amount of color pigments can be different.
If there were more cyan & magenta the print would be bluer.  Its not
like the Epson driver where CMY are all mixed and cancel each other out.
The neutral profiles all use only LC and LM no Y.

> calculated the difference).  He said that the mixed in amounts are not
> significant enough to affect the "carbon status" of the inks.  Paul
> Roark recently expressed similar concerns (see msg #43963, 4/16/04).
> 
> Of course longevity is relative.  I don't remember exact Wilhelm
> numbers, but I do recall reading that the carbon blacks outlasted the
> color pigments in one of his tests.  If the cyan/magenta dots in a RIP
> print last 70 years and the black lasts 100 then you have a 70 year
> print.  Is that "archival" enough?  Will a gray scale ink print
> outlast a RIP print?  

But on the print its exactly the same stuff, the same amount of carbon,
the same amount of cyan pigment and the same amount of magenta
pigment.  If the carbon lasts 100 and the colors last 70, then after
70 you will have a warmer print in both cases.

Will a pure carbon Eboni BO print last even
> longer?  Nobody seems to have a definitive answer.
> 
> My own tests give me doubts about pigments.  I have a Septone print
> (multi-tone gray scale inks) on my windowsill that began showing signs
> of fading at 125 days.  Right beside it is an Eboni BO print (both on
> PhotoRag) that is over 150 days now with no signs of fading.   Of
> course that's an unfair torture test (bright daylight and a small
> amount of direct sunlight every day), but it nevertheless shows a
> difference in the inks.  I plan to do a windowsill test on a UT7 print
> when it's available.

Do you have any test using the MIS beside Eboni?  

> 
> So...what to make of all this?  I don't know, I just have doubts about
> the colored dots.  If I'm going to have dots I guess I prefer them
> to be all black <g>.  

It's certainly reasonable to be safe.  Until they outlaw loupes someone
will always try looking at the details.

The only thing I do have some confidence about
> is I can say that my prints are pure carbon ink prints and that Eboni
> ranks among the highest (if not _the_ highest) in longevity ratings. 

Eboni seems to be quite different than the Epson inks. Its too bad that
there doesn't seem to be a dilution capability.  My guess is that the
carbon particles are larger in Eboni.  This results in better longevity
and I believe also why the tone is more neutral.  As I recall from
darkroom papers, the warmtone papers had smaller grains of silver.
The small grains appear warmer that the larger grains.

> Beyond that, I'm just waiting to see what happens next.
> 
> Do you know if there are there any gray scale inks without toners,
> just dilutions of black carbon ink?

Sure, its just that they aren't neutral tone.  Piezo Carbon Sepia is supposed
to be.  The new MIS FS-UT is I think.  Part of the appeal of toners is
that the grays are pure carbons so you can make a pure carbon print.

> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Regards,
Roy

www.harrington.com

Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (request)

2004-04-21 by Clayton Jones

Hello Roy,

>Do you have any test using the MIS beside Eboni?  

No, I plan to try UT7 when it's available.  I suspect that Septone
uses some dye for its toning, and hope/expect that UT7 will give
better results.


>Until they outlaw loupes someone will always try looking at the 
>details.

Ladies and gentlemen!  Welcome to the grand opening of Acme Fine Art
Gallery.  Please check your loupes at the door <g>.



>Eboni seems to be quite different than the Epson inks. Its too bad
>that there doesn't seem to be a dilution capability.  My guess is 
>that the carbon particles are larger in Eboni.  This results in 
>better longevity and I believe also why the tone is more neutral.  
>As I recall from darkroom papers, the warmtone papers had smaller
>grains of silver.  The small grains appear warmer that the larger 
>grains.

Very interesting.  That fits with Paul's statement about finely milled
carbon particles.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (re

2004-04-21 by Ernst Dinkla

Clayton Jones wrote:

>>Unless the fact that the 'color' is mixed with the 'carbon' has the 
>>effect of somehow inhibiting fading, the 'color' is still going to 
>>fade, giving the same overall image degredation.  Granted, in the 
>>non-mixed application, individual color dots would fade, while the
>>carbon would not.  While in the 'mixed' environment each dot would
>>fade/change color.  But, the overal result should be the same?
> 
> 
> Good question.  I have two thoughts about it:
> 
> 1) In a RIP print a Cyan/Magenta dot is a fully exposed batch of that
> ink.  In a mixed carbon ink the microscopic pigment particles are
> surrounded by carbon particles, so maybe the pigment particles are
> offered some protection by the surrounding carbon on that microscopic
> level...

The composite grey is build in another way, that's what I wrote 
in the message before this one.

The more the carbon protects, the less toning happens ......... 
You have to increase the colorant to get more toning but by that 
the colorant gets more exposed.  Like giving a black ink a tone 
.... better start with a heavy colored ink and add black than the 
other way around. That's the silkscreen printer in me who writes 
this.

> 2) Because of the mixing on the microscopic level, I wonder if the
> desired print toning can be achieved using less pigment?  This seemed
> to be what Bob was implying.

I think that Bob is implying that he can use single hue, more 
opaque, pigment particles for the toner while the colour printer 
has to lay down two hues at least that have to be transparent and 
must make a wide colour gamut for their normal task. The opaque, 
low gamut, pigments are just more lightfast. Compare the first 
Roland ink pigments with the pigments that were introduced by 
Generations later on etc. The Roland pigments last longer 
outdoors but their gamut is much less. C.D. Tobie called them 
prefaded :-)   Paul Roark has his doubts whether the modern wide 
gamut pigments like Ultrachrome really are pigment only. But 
without doubt they are not that fade proof as the pigments used 
for outdoor exposure. The last can still be used for the humble 
task of quad toning.

Microscopic in this context is still way bigger than lightwave 
lengths/photon sizes so there's no reason that something 
specially happens with light filtering in that sense. There's 
however a difference between laying down different colored 
droplets more or less next to one another and laying down 
homogene grey "toned" inks.  That's what I described before.

Ernst

[Digital BW] Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (re

2004-04-21 by Clayton Jones

Hello Ernst,

>The more the carbon protects, the less toning happens ......... 
>You have to increase the colorant to get more toning but by that 
>the colorant gets more exposed.  

Ok, got it.


>I think that Bob is implying that he can use single hue, more 
>opaque, pigment particles for the toner while the colour printer 
>has to lay down two hues at least that have to be transparent and 
>must make a wide colour gamut for their normal task. The opaque, 
>low gamut, pigments are just more lightfast...The Roland pigments 
>last longer outdoors but their gamut is much less.
>Paul Roark has his doubts whether the modern wide gamut pigments 
>like Ultrachrome really are pigment only. But without doubt they 
>are not that fade proof as the pigments used for outdoor exposure. 
>The last can still be used for the humble task of quad toning.

Ah, this is all starting to come together and make sense now.  

 
>Microscopic in this context is still way bigger than lightwave 
>lengths/photon sizes so there's no reason that something 
>specially happens with light filtering in that sense. 

Ok, so much for that idea.


>That's the silkscreen printer in me who writes this.

Maybe you can answer some other questions that I've had for some
months.  There are other ink based arts that have existed for a long
time, including silk screen, etching, and photogravure to name a few.
 Are these processes considered "archival"?  How long have these art
works lasted?  What kind of inks and papers have been used?  I
recently saw an auction listing where some original Edward S. Curtis
photogravures sold for big bucks.  It's probably safe to assume they
haven't faded, and they must be approaching 100 years now.  What kind
of ink and paper were used for them?

Many thanks.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Summary of options for grayscale inks in wide-format Epsons (re

2004-04-21 by Ernst Dinkla

Clayton wrote:

> Maybe you can answer some other questions that I've had for some
> months.  There are other ink based arts that have existed for a long
> time, including silk screen, etching, and photogravure to name a few.
>  Are these processes considered "archival"?  How long have these art
> works lasted?  What kind of inks and papers have been used?  I
> recently saw an auction listing where some original Edward S. Curtis
> photogravures sold for big bucks.  It's probably safe to assume they
> haven't faded, and they must be approaching 100 years now.  What kind
> of ink and paper were used for them?

The printing processes are not archival if the components are not 
archival themselves. Paper quality (especially buffering), ink 
(pigment quality mainly but also the binder + drying process), 
ink layer thickness and care in the printing process (water 
quality used in the stone printing). I've seen enough silkscreen 
prints that lost their color partly while that process often is 
chosen for its quality to get color and keep it. Silkscreen is 
one of the few  technics that can be used with a variety of ink 
binders: water based acrylics (+styrenes), urethane, solvent 
based cellulose, vinyls, acrylics, two component epoxies, UV 
curing acrylics, polyesters and the old oxidising linseed, alkyd 
varnishes etc. Combine that with cheap or expensive pigments, 
multi color spot printing in thick layers or full colour with 
fine mesh screens and you get a whole variety of archival qualities.

Intaglio printing itself has been around since the early 15th 
century, metal engraving was already used for armory before that. 
Wood cuts followed by wood engraving existed before intaglio and 
the inks used for that printing technique where not that 
different to the intaglio inks (and the inks later used for litho 
or even the first silkscreen inks). In fact they are quite 
similar to oil painting materials (usually credited to Jan van 
Eyck, early 15th century too). Carbon (lamp) black, mineral 
pigments and a variety of oils that will oxidise to the air as 
the binder (often aided by a catalyser) and so hardened protect 
the already excellent mineral pigments to humidity etc better 
than the water based binders of inkjet. Don't expect the gamut of 
the modern pigments or dyes. The whole idea of tri color 
subtractive mixing didn't exist before the 18th century. The 
mineral pigments themselves are much older and have been used 
with wax or eggwhite binders before that. For wax paintings on 
walls you have to think in two millenniums. Some cave temples in 
Libanon if I'm not mistaken. Binders for the even older cave 
paintings were based on fat I believe.
Photogravures date back to 1860 I guess, like many of the 
printing techniques that were invented to illustrate the books 
and magazines printed in large quantities already. Collotype a 
bit later. There's a nice small book on Victorian book 
illustration technics upstairs but its almost bedtime here :-). 
Most problematic part of all the prints of that time is the 
paper. With the rising demand for printing paper other bleaching 
and sizing technics were introduced that showed their bad 
archival qualities later.
But on a good textile fiber paper a 500 year old woodcut will 
exist for another 500 years in the museum climate they are most 
likely in now. There's a paper manufacturer in Scotland (Tullis 
?) that makes a paper for expensive books based on alpha 
cellulose and they claim a 500 year age if properly archived.

The Curtis gravures are not that uniform in their quality 
(different printruns in time) if I remember it correctly but I'm 
no expert on that subject. Density loss will be no problem given 
the color. Sometimes there's binder bleeding in the paper with 
photogravure when the binder doesn't harden fast enough. Mold can 
always appear on paper in bad archival conditions.
Oil based binders have a tendency to yellow unlike acrylics so it 
certainly isn't so that all what is old is better.

Ernst

RE: [Digital BW] Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-22 by Paul Roark

>>...Ironically, the smaller the particle, the
>> larger the surface area to volume ratio is.  This larger
>> surface-area-to-volume causes faster oxidation, which is the 
>>cause of most fading.


Tyler wrote:

>...In essence meaning that ink terned as carbon pigment alone does not
>necessarily indicate more longevity. We can't necessarily take that as
>insurance, there's more to it.

Yes, although in practice I find the "carbon black" in the inksets I've
tested (clearly excluding hybrid blacks with dyes in them) to be the more
lightfast than the color pigments, but with the cyan running a very close
second place.

Ernst wrote:

>...Compare the first Roland ink pigments with the pigments that were
>introduced by Generations later on etc. The Roland pigments last longer
>outdoors but their gamut is much less. C.D. Tobie called them 
>prefaded :-)

I've been told at least some of the old outdoor signage printers used very
large pigment particle sizes to get great relative longevity.  However,
these pigs would clog an Epson desktop printer.  Also, it appears that the
smaller the particle the larger the gamut. 

So, again ironically, while Epson is pursuing smaller particles and dots for
smoother, higher-gamut images, these are not necessarily what we want for
B&W longevity.  We might be better off with larger particle sizes if they
would work in our printers.  Realistically, however, we're stuck with the
Epson desktop printers made for the color market because B&W is not a large
enough market to support a totally different printer design. 

It's interesting to consider the effects of the Epson acrylic coatings on
their particles.  Does this help of hurt longevity?  Does it require a
smaller pigment particle size to accommodate the acrylic coating?  Acrylic
is not a particularly good oxygen barrier, so it might well be that a larger
pigment particle with no coating would be a better choice.  

Note that Epson omitted the acrylic coating on the matte black and made the
particle larger.  On that particle they claim to have a "solubility" layer
on the outside.  What is this?  Pigments are not soluble.  It is probably
some treatment that increases the particle's surface area to mass.

If one could get particles to stick on glossy paper without an acrylic
coating, would the potentially larger particles allow more lightfast colors?
MIS claims its color pigments do better in lightfastness tests than UC
pigments.  (I have not run a direct test of this.)




>> Note that the Epson MSDS's make it appear that their black 
>>pigments are not only carbon -- maybe not even predominantly carbon.
>>For example, the Epson Light Black MSDS lists "carbon black" as "< 1%."
>>"Proprietary dyes and pigments" are "< 8%."  Then, of course, there are
>>"proprietary organic materials" at "5% - 10%," and "glycerols" at 
>>"about 18%."  Water makes up the balance.

Tyler wrote:

>Giving them the benifit of the doubt and assuming that only "carbon
>black" and "Proprietary dyes and pigments" are image forming, only
>11+% of the image is carbon black, and if "proprietrary organic
>materials" contribute any optical density, even less.

True.  On the other hand, the image-forming part of the mix may be pure
carbon.  I just don't know.

>>The color-based grayscale patches I've tested tend to fade faster
>>and shift green (indicating a relatively weak magenta -- which is
>>consistent with my general pigment reading). 

>I'm curious which color inks did this. I've seen straight Ultrachrome
>B&W prints that look decent with good profiles, but would be very
>uncertain of them remaining neutral over time.

It has been consistent with all color inksets that I've tested.  But, I'm
not sure if I've tested a UC grayscale print.  Cone's tests indicated the UC
magenta is very good, but I suspect this could be due to the differing test
conditions.  The different pigment types can have differing relative
performances under different test conditions.  This includes not only
different lightfastness test, but tests relating to sensitivity to different
chemicals and even air movement.  The most lightfast pigment might not be
the pigment least sensitive to atmospheric pollution.

In general, however, I think we are better off with the fewest color
pigments in our B&W prints, even if the carbon shifts yellow a bit.  I think
slight warming is going to be more acceptable as a "normal" aging effect
than is a green or other non-traditional color shift.  

One thing is relatively certain -- the individual color pigments will fade
and otherwise deteriorate at different rates.  I'm leaning toward a B&W
toning approach that uses one (or predominantly only one) color pigment per
toner.  As the color fades the prints will simply lose gamut, in effect,
slowly shifting to the carbon warm tone, but probably never totally losing
all the toning effect.  I think a one-color-pigment toner minimizes the
chances of weird and potentially uneven color shifts.  Right now I think all
of us are using the traditional cyan, magenta, and yellow pigments to do our
toning.  I'm trying to change this.


>> While we might agonize the details, the bottom line is that our
>> predominantly carbon (my best guess) pigments on buffered cotton
>>paper are very lightfast and archival (in dark storage).  The higher the
>>percentage of "carbon black" the more lightfast they appear to be.  

>I suspect there is too much agonizing. I have many many prints made
>from the original Sundance Piezography quad inks, thought by most to
>be the devil's brew. ...
>Though a few have lightened and reddened abnormaly, the vast majority
>of them look great.

I agree.  I had some old MIS original quad prints on the wall for years.
They warmed, but I didn't really even notice the warming until I held a
neutral print right next to them.

> ... atmospheric contaminants...
>This kind of thing may really be our biggest problem, many unknowns ...

Yes, and it's impossible to predict or test for most of them.  Wilhelm is
now testing for ozone sensitivity, but there are so many other pollutants
that might interact with the image-forming substance, inkjet coatings, and
the paper itself.  

However, the inkjet history has focused us and the market on lightfastness.
This has also been the traditional focus of many of the painting fields, for
example water colors.  So, I think there is a rational reason to focus on
this issue, and it's one where, fortunately, the accelerated testing appears
to be most accepted as relevant even if imperfect.  

Lightfastness is also something we can at least get to a point where,
hopefully, it will disappear as an issue in the market.  I think the market
still needs to be convinced that "inkjet" does not necessarily mean that the
print will fade in a few years.

>I suspect also relevant to yellowing coatings.

Coatings, including both their yellowing and effectiveness, are still
somthing I'm pursuing.  I now think solvent-based acrylics the best.  The
old Rolm & Haas B72 formula is so well accepted and has been used so long
that I feel comfortable with it.  It's in Lascaux Fixativ.  A very similar
acrylic that has been mentioned by the chief of conservation at the National
Gallery as being essentially the same is the Grumbacher Tuffilm.  He says
that these coatings have been tested out to 400 years with not problems.
They are very widely used in other fields.  

PremierArt Print Shield "lacquer" is getting wide acceptance now due to the
Wilhelm tests, but I have not been able to get any information on its
coating type.  "Lacquer" to me is a generic for clear coating.  Many
coatings have been found to yellow over the long run.  I'd be more
comfortable knowing what is in the products I use.  Still, it does a good
job in the short run and has not yellowed in any of my tests.  But those
tests are too short and light only.  I use it, but, long term, I would have
more confidence in it if I knew it was an acrylic.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-28 by Peter Nelson

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> >>...Ironically, the smaller the particle, the
> >> larger the surface area to volume ratio is.  This larger
> >> surface-area-to-volume causes faster oxidation, which is the 
> >>cause of most fading.

Oxidation is a chemical process, not a physical one, so why would 
the surface area to volume ratio matter?    For a pigment particle 
to fade only the molecules at the surface need to change color.   
The fact that a faded pigment molecule on a small particle might 
have a zillion unoxidized molecules underneath it and one on a big 
particle might have TEN zillion unoxidized molecules underneath it 
doesn't seem all that significant since it's only the one on top 
that we see, unless you're implying that the molecules have 
motility.  (are you?)

Also note that the term "oxidation" does not necessarily imply 
contact with oxygen (e.g., air), hence the surface area exposed to 
air may not even be relevant.   Don't forget your high-
school/college chemistry - "oxidation" refers to any of a variety of 
processes that causes the molecule to give up an electron.  For 
example a bleaching agent (e.g., OCl-) is considered an oxidizing 
agent because it readily accepts electrons (OCl- + 2e- + HOH -> Cl- 
+ 2 OH-).  (anyone here remember "leo goes ger"?) This is not to 
suggest that there's hypochlorite floating around in our paper, but 
N.B. that you can achieve the same thing with exposure to UV.   

The other thing to keep in mind is that phenomena like oxidation and 
polymerization do not necessarily induce FADING - they can cause 
other color changes or even DARKENING instead.   For instance, the 
boiled linseed oil used in oil painting turns yellow, and eventually 
brown over time (decades/centuries).

The OTHER othing thing to keep in mind is that unlike painting (sign 
painting, portrait painting, etc) where the chemical and physical 
composition of the pigments in the paints is well known and has been 
widely known for decades or centuries, the physical and chemical 
characteristics of the pigments in inkjet inks is a matter of pure 
speculation.    I guarantee there is no one (or no one who's saying) 
in this forum who knows as much about the chemistry of Epson or its 
competitors' inks as the  average eager high school student knows or 
can find out about the back side of the moon.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-28 by Ernst Dinkla

Peter Nelson wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
>>>>...Ironically, the smaller the particle, the
>>>>larger the surface area to volume ratio is.  This larger
>>>>surface-area-to-volume causes faster oxidation, which is the 
>>>>cause of most fading.
> 
> 
> Oxidation is a chemical process, not a physical one, so why would 
> the surface area to volume ratio matter?    For a pigment particle 
> to fade only the molecules at the surface need to change color.   
> The fact that a faded pigment molecule on a small particle might 
> have a zillion unoxidized molecules underneath it and one on a big 
> particle might have TEN zillion unoxidized molecules underneath it 
> doesn't seem all that significant since it's only the one on top 
> that we see, unless you're implying that the molecules have 
> motility.  (are you?)

I agree with most of what you write but the assumption that the 
pigment particles in inkjet inks are opaque, inkjet pigment inks 
are opaque and inkjet pigment ink layers are opaque isn't 
correct.  If you accept that they are all more or less 
transparent then it isn't just the top of the ink layer that does 
the coloring, it isn't just the outer molecule layer of the 
particle that does the coloring but also the mass of the pigment 
particles. Then the total surface of the particles to the total 
volume of the particles plays a role in the fading properties. 
The larger total surface of the smaller particles will react 
faster to any possible reagent and so more molecules of the mass 
will loose their unique coloring power faster and become 
something else, it isn't that important if the shift occurs in 
tone, hue or saturation, it is a shift.

Surface area to volume area matters a lot in a chemical process. 
Adding fresh aluminium powder to firework certainly gives more 
reactive effect than adding an aluminium slab.

The color pigments of inkjet inks are much more related to the 
dyes that are also used in inkjet inks than to the opaque 
"grinded rock" mineral pigments.

A bit off topic in this thread but I have not seen a reference so 
far: the opaqueness of layers is easier to achieve with non 
uniform particles (different size, form) than with totally 
uniform particles. That's observed with paints, photographic 
emulsions, printed layers etc.  I wonder how uniform the carbon 
pigment particles are as used in quad inks and where the limit is 
where no extra density is achieved (where the reflectance of the 
pigment is the only thing measured and no white substrate plays a 
role in the reflectance).  This is quite theoretical and doesn't 
have much influence on the range of 0-95% but may play a role in 
the darkest shadows. The more uniform the particle size is the 
more transparent the ink will be (not like a dye though). For 
quad printing transparency can't be bad, opaqueness doesn't mean 
a higher density just that the substrate isn't taking part in the 
reflectance anymore, a transparent black ink can achieve more 
density than an opaque grey ink.



Ernst

[Digital BW] Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-28 by Peter Nelson

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> Peter Nelson wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul 
Roark" 
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > 
> >>>>...Ironically, the smaller the particle, the
> >>>>larger the surface area to volume ratio is.  This larger
> >>>>surface-area-to-volume causes faster oxidation, which is the 
> >>>>cause of most fading.
> > 
> > 
> > Oxidation is a chemical process, not a physical one, so why 
would 
> > the surface area to volume ratio matter?    For a pigment 
particle 
> > to fade only the molecules at the surface need to change 
color.   
> > The fact that a faded pigment molecule on a small particle might 
> > have a zillion unoxidized molecules underneath it and one on a 
big 
> > particle might have TEN zillion unoxidized molecules underneath 
it 
> > doesn't seem all that significant since it's only the one on top 
> > that we see, unless you're implying that the molecules have 
> > motility.  (are you?)
> 
> I agree with most of what you write but the assumption that the 
> pigment particles in inkjet inks are opaque, inkjet pigment inks 
> are opaque and inkjet pigment ink layers are opaque isn't 
> correct.  If you accept that they are all more or less 
> transparent then it isn't just the top of the ink layer that does 
> the coloring, it isn't just the outer molecule layer of the 
> particle that does the coloring but also the mass of the pigment 
> particles. 

Whether or to what degree it's transparent is pure speculation, as 
is the mechanism of its transparency.  Keep on mind that individual 
molecules are much smaller than a wavelength of light, so the actual 
color you see is based not only on the structure on the individual 
molecule (e.g., its chromophore) but also on its solid state 
properties, such as whether it's in a lattice or layers or whatever, 
and finally its dispersal within a medium or vehicle.   It might be 
transparent to certain wavelengths based on its chromophore, or it 
might be transparent based on particles being so widely dispersed in 
the medium that most of the light landing in the ink never hits any 
pigment until it gets much deeper into the medium or vehicle.   
Since we have no idea what the chemical and physical properties are 
we cannot speculate about how transparent the pigment might be, or 
why.

> Then the total surface of the particles to the total 
> volume of the particles plays a role in the fading properties. 
> The larger total surface of the smaller particles will react 
> faster to any possible reagent and so more molecules of the mass 
> will loose their unique coloring power faster and become 
> something else, it isn't that important if the shift occurs in 
> tone, hue or saturation, it is a shift.
>
 
> Surface area to volume area matters a lot in a chemical process. 
> Adding fresh aluminium powder to firework certainly gives more 
> reactive effect than adding an aluminium slab.

Sure, but we can only say that because we know what the physical and 
chemical properties of firework propellants are.  We know that it 
proceeds faster when a larger surface area of the propellant is 
exposed to air because we know that a rapid exothermic reaction with 
the oxygen in the air is the basis of the reaction.   Since we don't 
know anything about the chemical or physical properties of inkjet 
inks we're just BS'ing when we speculate about the chemical process 
by which they fade.   It may not even be a reaction with air, and if 
it is it may only be facilitiated by special conditions such as UV, 
certain ions, or whatever.

 
> The color pigments of inkjet inks are much more related to the 
> dyes that are also used in inkjet inks than to the opaque 
> "grinded rock" mineral pigments.

Do you know that for a fact?    Can you cite references or sources?

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-29 by Ernst Dinkla

Peter Nelson wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
> <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> 
>>Peter Nelson wrote:
>>
>>>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul 
> 
> Roark" 
> 
>>><paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>...Ironically, the smaller the particle, the
>>>>>>larger the surface area to volume ratio is.  This larger
>>>>>>surface-area-to-volume causes faster oxidation, which is the 
>>>>>>cause of most fading.
>>>
>>>
>>>Oxidation is a chemical process, not a physical one, so why 
> 
> would 
> 
>>>the surface area to volume ratio matter?    For a pigment 
> 
> particle 
> 
>>>to fade only the molecules at the surface need to change 
> 
> color.   
> 
>>>The fact that a faded pigment molecule on a small particle might 
>>>have a zillion unoxidized molecules underneath it and one on a 
> 
> big 
> 
>>>particle might have TEN zillion unoxidized molecules underneath 
> 
> it 
> 
>>>doesn't seem all that significant since it's only the one on top 
>>>that we see, unless you're implying that the molecules have 
>>>motility.  (are you?)
>>
>>I agree with most of what you write but the assumption that the 
>>pigment particles in inkjet inks are opaque, inkjet pigment inks 
>>are opaque and inkjet pigment ink layers are opaque isn't 
>>correct.  If you accept that they are all more or less 
>>transparent then it isn't just the top of the ink layer that does 
>>the coloring, it isn't just the outer molecule layer of the 
>>particle that does the coloring but also the mass of the pigment 
>>particles. 
> 
> 
> Whether or to what degree it's transparent is pure speculation, as 
> is the mechanism of its transparency.  Keep on mind that individual 
> molecules are much smaller than a wavelength of light, so the actual 
> color you see is based not only on the structure on the individual 
> molecule (e.g., its chromophore) but also on its solid state 
> properties, such as whether it's in a lattice or layers or whatever, 
> and finally its dispersal within a medium or vehicle.   It might be 
> transparent to certain wavelengths based on its chromophore, or it 
> might be transparent based on particles being so widely dispersed in 
> the medium that most of the light landing in the ink never hits any 
> pigment until it gets much deeper into the medium or vehicle.   
> Since we have no idea what the chemical and physical properties are 
> we cannot speculate about how transparent the pigment might be, or 
> why.

Subtractive color mixing doesn't work without some transparency 
of the individual ink layers. It's gamut increases a lot with 
high transparency. It would be impossible to get the gamut of 
inkjet pigment inks without transparency. That part at least 
isn't pure speculation.

If the coloring only is a result of the reflectance of the 
surface of the particles and the transparency of the inklayer is 
just the path between the particles to the substrate and back 
then the coloring should increase with the total particle surface 
increase of the smaller particles compared to the bigger 
particles. In that case you could use less total particles volume 
to get the same coloring effect. What I have learned on pigments 
is that it doesn't work like that. If the particles get too small 
they don't have the same coloring effect. Probably related to the 
solid state properties of the particle, breaking up the 
structure. Is probably different with those dye based organic 
pigments but my bet is that they are much more transparent than 
opaque anyway.

Interference and diffraction. I find both pure speculation with 
little reference to inkjet practice.The dispersal within the 
medium as the factor for coloring would immediately create 
problems in immense differences on different substrates. There's 
very little medium left in the printed inklayer, one of the 
bigger problems in inkjet printing. The same for layer forming on 
the surface.  BTW, the interference coloring would only work 
nicely with some transparency of the layers.

The speculative part works on both views, in your assumption of 
opaque particles, on my assumption of transparent particles.


> 
>>Then the total surface of the particles to the total 
>>volume of the particles plays a role in the fading properties. 
>>The larger total surface of the smaller particles will react 
>>faster to any possible reagent and so more molecules of the mass 
>>will loose their unique coloring power faster and become 
>>something else, it isn't that important if the shift occurs in 
>>tone, hue or saturation, it is a shift.
>>
> 
>  
> 
>>Surface area to volume area matters a lot in a chemical process. 
>>Adding fresh aluminium powder to firework certainly gives more 
>>reactive effect than adding an aluminium slab.
> 
> 
> Sure, but we can only say that because we know what the physical and 
> chemical properties of firework propellants are.  We know that it 
> proceeds faster when a larger surface area of the propellant is 
> exposed to air because we know that a rapid exothermic reaction with 
> the oxygen in the air is the basis of the reaction.   Since we don't 
> know anything about the chemical or physical properties of inkjet 
> inks we're just BS'ing when we speculate about the chemical process 
> by which they fade.   It may not even be a reaction with air, and if 
> it is it may only be facilitiated by special conditions such as UV, 
> certain ions, or whatever.

According to Wilhelm oxygen and ozone and probably some nitrogen 
related gases are a cause of fading in dyes. If the paper coating 
(gelatin, PVA) embeds the dyes or pigments properly (lowering 
humidity changes + oxygen penetration) then that process will be 
slower. If the pigment particles are coated with a polymer like 
acryl a similar protection can be achieved. That's what Epson has 
done with the encapsulated particles. Any printing on mat open 
structure coating papers like the Hahnemuhle papers ends in 
pigment particles being quite exposed to the elements with little 
medium left around them or only relying on the encapsulation + 
some medium left.

>>The color pigments of inkjet inks are much more related to the 
>>dyes that are also used in inkjet inks than to the opaque 
>>"grinded rock" mineral pigments.
> 
> 
> Do you know that for a fact?    Can you cite references or sources?

There's just no mineral with the staining power needed for CMY 
subtractive printing, this is all artificial/organic stuff for 
ages, at least for the time that CMYK printing has an acceptable 
gamut. 1920's is my bet.  Dyes are possible too and were/are used 
in roto gravure, flexography. Not handy in offset due to the 
water/oil balance needed in the process.

There's a good research report in PDF done by a German lady that 
is somewhere in the RIT archives though I did see it before on a 
German site. Will try to find that again. That's not the only 
source I have that information from.

Well not the German lady but this time a German lad:

http://www.knaw.nl/ecpa/PUBL/InkJ-144.pdf

Search for pigment in that document.

Any Google search on    organic pigment dye inkjet fading    will 
deliver something accordingly.

http://www.rit.edu/~661www1/sub_pages/inkjet_stability_72dpi.pdf

That's Barbara Vogt at last.

Whether this all is relevant for the carbon pigment particles in 
quad inks has to be seen. At least it is relevant for the toners 
being dye, high gamut organic pigment or low gamut/slow fading 
pigment.

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-29 by Ernst Dinkla

Paul,

I think you will find interesting stuff in this paper:

> Well not the German lady but this time a German lad:
> 
> http://www.knaw.nl/ecpa/PUBL/InkJ-144.pdf

Not only under organic pigments but also in a chapter called 
colorant at page 35.

Ernst

RE: [Digital BW] Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

2004-04-29 by Paul Roark

Ernst,

Thanks for the URL.  That paper has been a major source of information for
me over the last couple of years.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
______________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Ernst Dinkla [mailto:E.Dinkla@...] 
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 1:18 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: grayscale inks / toners / longevity

Paul,

I think you will find interesting stuff in this paper:

> Well not the German lady but this time a German lad:
> 
> http://www.knaw.nl/ecpa/PUBL/InkJ-144.pdf

Not only under organic pigments but also in a chapter called 
colorant at page 35.

Ernst





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