Digital BW, The Print

Because in the "professional" graphics world the Mac has had a far greater
share of the market than you are stating here. Separate out "pros" (ad
agencies, freelance graphic designers, service bureaus) from "buffs" (home
consumers who are into digital photography).

I don't think digital photography "buffs" are writing software. I think
people who grew up in the pro graphics world working on macs love them and a
subset of those people have learned how to write software and are choosing
to write for a platform they love. Many times they do this to "solve a
problem" they have a work. Then, they realize that they could make some
money off of what they wrote and turn it into a product. My bet is these RIP
companies are very small, most likely single developer companies, so they
are choosing to write for/with what they love, not based on some analysts
numbers. 

My bet is true market for RIPs is very small, hence the price needs to be
higher to make it worthwhile for the person/company selling it. How many
home "buffs" are going to spend more than $500 on piece of software for a
computer that cost $899 and a printer that cost $699? Not many, so the real
market is the "pros"; the service bureaus. I bet just about every service
bureau has a Mac, so it's not so odd to target that platform.

To quote bill gates, "I make more money per mac sold than I do per PC sold."
Why does microsoft make more money per mac than per pc (at least at the time
he said this)? Because the support calls were drastically less.

BTW, not everyone follows the leader. There is the contrarian theory at work
here as well. 

Since the Mac market is smaller it's drastically less crowded with vendors.
If you were to write a great tool that graphic pros would love you might
find that there's less competition in the mac side of the house. Now once
you've grown from being a single developer to a true company you might
consider porting it to the PC side if there's not a lot of competition, for
example.

I'm sure you good argument for starting with the PC side as well. (Look how
big the market is, etc.).

As Steve Jobs recently told someone at the Apple share holders meeting, he'd
rather be like BMW (know for quality, style, and consequently higher margin)
than simply being known for low cost. People don't avoid buying a BMW
because they are worried about BMW's marketshare, hence he's happy being
very profible on his market share vs. trying to beat out dell/gateway on
simply being a low cost, no R&D company.

My two cents.

Please don't turn this into a Mac vs. PC flame war. I'm simply answering
your question.

I personally own and use Macs, PCs, and Linux. Each is a tool that has
strengths and weaknesses and each can "do the job" well, granted sometimes
differently.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Nelson [mailto:pnweb@studio-nelson.com]
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 8:44 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] looking for suggestions on dealing with
metamerism


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> You can get very very good (is that great?) B&W prints and colour 
at the
> same time with the Epson UC inks.  If you run a Mac try Roy 
Harrington¹s QTR
> for B&W 

Would someone please answer my question of why there seem to be so 
many tools for Mac's and not for PC's?   IDC reported in February 
that Apple has 3% of the total desktop market.   Even if we assume 
that Mac's are FIVE TIMES that popular among digital photography 
buffs (a big assumption, IMO) that would still only be a 15% market 
share.   Since I write Wintel sw for a living I know PC's are not 
hard to program so what's up with this?






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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jonah, Jim"

> My bet is true market for RIPs is very small, 
> hence the price needs to be higher to make it 
> worthwhile for the person/company selling it. 

No, RIPs are expensive because they are big complicated pieces of 
software.   My complaint about RIPs is that their ability to print 
black and white is NOT their raison d'etre but people here act like 
it is.  Buying an entire RIP just to print black and white is like 
buying a new house because you like the carpet in the upstairs guest 
bedroom - it's a lot of trouble and expense to go to to get a piece 
of carpet.


> If you were to write a great tool that graphic pros 
> would love you might find that there's less competition
> in the mac side of the house. Now once you've grown 
> from being a single developer to a true company you might
> consider porting it to the PC side if there's not 
> a lot of competition, for example.

Except that there's NO, ZERO, ZILCH competition in the PC universe 
for this stuff.   Yesterday we identified two separate non-RIP 
products for printing BW on Mac's -vs- none on PC's.

BTW, I notice in your comments that you kept referring to "graphic".  
If you are referring to graphic design, that's an entirely different 
discipline from photography.   Mac's have traditionally been strong 
in graphic design, not photography.   Several of my friends are 
graphic designers and none of those are photographers. 

How come Epson doesn't offer software for making decent BW prints on 
a 2200?

You've answered the question yourself. A rip is complicated code, hence
it'll cost a lot. If someone's going to shell out a lot, will they do it
from just B&W? or could the developer spend a few more weeks/months and add
a lot of functionality to help justify the cost and to increase the market
for buyers.

I used the phrase graphics industry because photography is part of the
graphics industry. The most realistic market for RIPs is service bureaus and
they usually service more than just photographers. I'd bet that generally
the photographers they service are the icing on the cake and the ad agencies
they service are what keeps the doors open (opinion - could be wrong).

Since the Mac dominated that industry for a while developers who understand
that industry are likely to want to work/write code for Macs. Since the Mac
is now Unix based you get two platforms that run very similar code (Mac and
Linux) and/or are easy enough port code (compared to port back and forth
with windows - again, an opinion here).

Adobe has dropped support for Mac products that they've let languish and
that Apple has come along and put out a (arguably) better product. (Final
Cut Pro vs. Premiere for example).

Since you've identified no competitors there's an opportunity. Go for it (if
you're a PC developer - sorry didn't save the original email that started
this - that person was a developer).

Now here's the delima. Since the software is complicated (as you point out)
it'll take (guessing here) 6 months to a year (lets say) to develop. Of
course you'll need to target a range of Epson printers (or will you put a
year into a product for a single printer?). What if epson releases a new
printer in that time? What if a competitor ports over to the PC. Will a
product with a single feature survive? By the time you get the core library
done I bet you'll want to widen the market so you'll target more printers
(more cost - buy each printer) and possible add more features (duo tones,
adjustable curves, etc.).

Now, what price will photography "buffs" be willing to pay? Take into
account piracy and that fact that there's a competing free product (granted
not on the PC, but it's GPL so it could be ported during the time period
that you write your product).

To me this is the type of tool that a developer writes because they have an
itch to scratch, and if they make good money off of it that's a bonus. (my
opinion).

Given that the QuadToneRIP is GPL and on sourceforge, a PC developer could
port it. However, since the code base is UNIX based there'll be a lot of
work there (most likely). So, a PC developer's going to put in a lot of work
for free. Hmm.. They're really going to want to scratch that it to do it.

My opinion.

If a B&W RIP is worth around $700 to you, buy an Emac and put quadtonerip on
it for free. Or build a linux box for about $400 and put quadtonerip on it.

Personally I've given up on insisting that one platform do everything. I
find the best tool (software) that'll do what I want, then run it on what
ever platform it's made for. If there's a choice of platforms that it runs
on then I'll pick one that I like, otherwise, why fight what isn't winnable
unless I'm willing to do the work myself (port the GPL code for example)?

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Nelson [mailto:pnweb@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 8:14 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] looking for suggestions on dealing with
metameri sm


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jonah, Jim"

> My bet is true market for RIPs is very small, 
> hence the price needs to be higher to make it 
> worthwhile for the person/company selling it. 

No, RIPs are expensive because they are big complicated pieces of 
software.   My complaint about RIPs is that their ability to print 
black and white is NOT their raison d'etre but people here act like 
it is.  Buying an entire RIP just to print black and white is like 
buying a new house because you like the carpet in the upstairs guest 
bedroom - it's a lot of trouble and expense to go to to get a piece 
of carpet.


> If you were to write a great tool that graphic pros 
> would love you might find that there's less competition
> in the mac side of the house. Now once you've grown 
> from being a single developer to a true company you might
> consider porting it to the PC side if there's not 
> a lot of competition, for example.

Except that there's NO, ZERO, ZILCH competition in the PC universe 
for this stuff.   Yesterday we identified two separate non-RIP 
products for printing BW on Mac's -vs- none on PC's.

BTW, I notice in your comments that you kept referring to "graphic".  
If you are referring to graphic design, that's an entirely different 
discipline from photography.   Mac's have traditionally been strong 
in graphic design, not photography.   Several of my friends are 
graphic designers and none of those are photographers. 

How come Epson doesn't offer software for making decent BW prints on 
a 2200?  






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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jonah, Jim" <jim.jonah@c...> 
wrote:
...
> 
> Given that the QuadToneRIP is GPL and on sourceforge, a PC developer could
> port it. However, since the code base is UNIX based there'll be a lot of
> work there (most likely). So, a PC developer's going to put in a lot of work
> for free. Hmm.. They're really going to want to scratch that it to do it.
> 

Jim,

This isn't accurate.  QuadToneRIP is NOT GPL nor on sourceforge.  Only the
gimp-print parts are GPL and free.  The most significant piece of QTR
is the profile and curves creation part.  This code is entirely separate from
the gimp-print part and entirely my code and copyright.   It is NOT free;
it is shareware that requires you to pay after trying it out as a demo.

Regards,
Roy

> My opinion.
> 
> If a B&W RIP is worth around $700 to you, buy an Emac and put quadtonerip on
> it for free. Or build a linux box for about $400 and put quadtonerip on it.
> 
> Personally I've given up on insisting that one platform do everything. I
> find the best tool (software) that'll do what I want, then run it on what
> ever platform it's made for. If there's a choice of platforms that it runs
> on then I'll pick one that I like, otherwise, why fight what isn't winnable
> unless I'm willing to do the work myself (port the GPL code for example)?
> 
> Jim
>

Oops.

Sorry about that, that's what I get for speed reading your web page. doh!

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 11:55 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] looking for suggestions on dealing with
metameri sm


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jonah, Jim"
<jim.jonah@c...> 
wrote:
...
> 
> Given that the QuadToneRIP is GPL and on sourceforge, a PC developer could
> port it. However, since the code base is UNIX based there'll be a lot of
> work there (most likely). So, a PC developer's going to put in a lot of
work
> for free. Hmm.. They're really going to want to scratch that it to do it.
> 

Jim,

This isn't accurate.  QuadToneRIP is NOT GPL nor on sourceforge.  Only the
gimp-print parts are GPL and free.  The most significant piece of QTR
is the profile and curves creation part.  This code is entirely separate
from
the gimp-print part and entirely my code and copyright.   It is NOT free;
it is shareware that requires you to pay after trying it out as a demo.

Regards,
Roy

> My opinion.
> 
> If a B&W RIP is worth around $700 to you, buy an Emac and put quadtonerip
on
> it for free. Or build a linux box for about $400 and put quadtonerip on
it.
> 
> Personally I've given up on insisting that one platform do everything. I
> find the best tool (software) that'll do what I want, then run it on what
> ever platform it's made for. If there's a choice of platforms that it runs
> on then I'll pick one that I like, otherwise, why fight what isn't
winnable
> unless I'm willing to do the work myself (port the GPL code for example)?
> 
> Jim
> 




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In a message dated 5/4/2004 5:17:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
pnweb@... writes:
Snip>
> How come Epson doesn't offer software for making decent BW prints on 
> a 2200?  
> 
Because your not willing to pay for it. Or their research shows not enough 
people will pay an extra 250.00 Or so. 699.00 is Budget breaker for many as it 
is, and Epson knows this.
Again, Its a consumer driven printer aimed at the hugely popular color 
market. Amateurs Mostly, they figure anyone selling prints or shooting for money Can 
afford the software to do black and white if they choose. At least you have 
that option.
Every Joe and his mother has a digital camera, Epson Is just supplying a 
printer for the average Joe. If that Average Joe is a little more tech hungry or 
an enthusiast, he springs for the 2200 to make slightly bigger prints. Epson 
loves these guys...
And the buyers are thrilled with there output as is.
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, sdmey4@a... 
wrote:

> Every Joe and his mother has a digital camera, 
> Epson Is just supplying a printer for the average Joe.

The 2200 is not a printer for the average Joe.   The C82
and 1290 (for bigger prints)  are printers for the average Joe.  

> Epson loves these guys... And the buyers are thrilled with there 
output as is.

According to the current issue of PC magazine Epson is #3 in overall 
inkjet printer sales.  HP is #1.  So there may not be as much love 
to go around as you think.   

Speaking of HP - does anyone have any experience with HP's 7960?  
Among their 8 colors are medium gray and light gray.   Do they have 
a large format version coming out?  How stable are their medium and 
light grays?

> According to the current issue of PC magazine Epson is #3 in 
overall 
> inkjet printer sales.  HP is #1.  So there may not be as much love 
> to go around as you think.   
> 
HP is known for its office & graphic printers, not for its photo 
printers.

Hi Peter,

I don't have direct experience to share re the 7960, but one thing I 
noticed when I investigated it briefly was that the cost of the 
consumables is horrendous. The ink cost alone works out at around 
GBP1.40 per A4 page of B&W (although it may not be as bad in USD). 
Also, while the inkset is dye based, they claim 75year print life but 
only if you use the HP gloss or pearl papers -- no matte option.

HTH

-= mike =-

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson" 
<pnweb@s...> wrote:

<snip>

> Speaking of HP - does anyone have any experience with HP's 7960?  
> Among their 8 colors are medium gray and light gray.   Do they have 
> a large format version coming out?  How stable are their medium and 
> light grays?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mike_nunan" 
<mike_nunan@h...> wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> 
> I don't have direct experience to share re the 7960, but one thing 
I 
> noticed when I investigated it briefly was that the cost of the 
> consumables is horrendous.

Compared to the 2200 ink?

Peter Nelson wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mike_nunan" 
><mike_nunan@h...> wrote:
>  
>
>>Hi Peter,
>>
>>I don't have direct experience to share re the 7960, but one thing 
>>    
>>
>I 
>  
>
>>noticed when I investigated it briefly was that the cost of the 
>>consumables is horrendous.
>>    
>>
>
>Compared to the 2200 ink?
>
>
>  
>
Yup, as in 8-12 8x10's per $24 #59 B&W cartridge..

That's $2-$3 per 8x10 in ink alone..

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

On the "good news" side,  I hear that MIS will soon have refill inks for 
the #59 cartridge..


 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

> Speaking of HP - does anyone have any experience with HP's 7960?  
> Among their 8 colors are medium gray and light gray.   Do they have 
> a large format version coming out?  How stable are their medium and 
> light grays?

The sample prints I've seen have some metamerism issues. Not nearly as
objectionable as that of the 2200, but still visible. Also I could see
some patterning in the dithering. From what I've read I understand this
is either an issue with a specific version of the driver, or only the
7660 and not the 7960. Somebody who actually owns one might know more.

Also, the paper selection seems to be mostly limited to HP's own photo
papers. I don't have the impression that it will give you good
performance on a wide variety of matte papers like the 2200 does.

Finally, the ink costs prevent me from even considering using original
inks in any printer setup. But that's partly because of the Norwegian
prices which are absurdly high. About twice as much as in the US I
guess. 

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

On 6/5/04 4:24 pm, "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
wrote:

> On the "good news" side,  I hear that MIS will soon have refill inks for
> the #59 cartridge..
> 
> 
> 
> Keith Krebs

That is good news. At GBP 24.99, nearly twice the cost of in the US, it will
be worth paying shipping charges to the UK.

Steve Bell