Digital BW, The Print

Todd,

I'm not inclined to respond too much to skeptics or critics, but at the risk
of throwing gasoline on the fire, I will try to explain where I'm coming
from.

Of course, my critics are, in part, correct -- I do have my biases.  For
example, I am biased against bullshit, and there seems to be a lot of that
around -- more from some sellers that others.

Nobody ever accused me of being particularly politic -- or normal, for that
matter.  So maybe people would understand my weird sense of fun if they knew
where I'm coming from.  I am a retired Federal Trade Commission antitrust
and consumer protection attorney.  I thoroughly enjoyed suing and kicking
the butts of the biggest companies and even entire national industries.  If
anyone wants a reference, ask Ralph Nader.  You can also ask any residential
real estate broker about the radical shift in their industry from one where
the buyer had no representation (but was led to believe s/he did) to one
where most buyers are represented by agents. How did that happen?  There was
never even a big lawsuit on the issue.  There was this arcane FTC book that
was published, but ...

The reason some people stay in government work is that, if they enjoy having
an impact and have the ability, it provides a platform where a single person
actually can affect radical change on entire industries.  And the effect is
not necessarily through suing companies or enacting rules, or anything more
than just disseminating a little information.  Our society lives on
information even more than oil.  Tiny amounts of information can be the
catalyst for really major change.  It can be a huge chess game, and there
are a few of us who really enjoyed it -- and still do.

But, after 25 years of this, my life plan was and is to stop doing anything
that is determined by the need for the $.  Now I just pursue those things
that related to non-monetary rewards -- love of family, nature, beauty,
photography, [(a good fight ;-)], etc.  Yes, it is a bit idealistic, but
life is short, and I don't need a Mercedes.

So, as part of this, I wanted a good digital output for the hundreds of
negatives I had produced during my mainstream-carrier phase of life.  I
tried a bunch.  Piezo was the best.  I really appreciate the ease with which
it got me up to speed, and Jon's information in the archives has been
invaluable.

But, as my experience grew, I came to want more.  My Piezo outfit banded
often, so I found that I could write RGB curves and use the Epson driver to
cure that.  I found the color of Piezo less than ideal, for me.  So, I
developed a variable-tone Piezo-based inkset.  I made it all public.  Why
not?  I'm not in the ink business.

The more I learned, however, the less enamored I became of some of the
information being disseminated by the Piezo camp -- only Piezo is carbon
based, Piezo is continuous tone, Piezo is pigments and doesn't fade, Piezo
has the longest tonal range, ....  With my background, this BS just rubs me
the wrong way.  One would think Cone Editions invented inkjet printing and
quads.  In my view, good products like Piezo don't need this nonsense.  On
the other hand, as I've told Jon in e-mails, with my personality I couldn't
sell a thing.  I understand that salesmanship often involves hype.

At any rate, I was originally left with the impression that Piezo was the
ultimate and the cheap MIS alternative was just trash.  Finally, some Piezo
users (Jerry, among others) suggested that I try to make a variable-tone ink
mix based on MIS.  So, that sounded like an interesting alternative and
challenge.  However, I didn't want to waste my time on an inkset that was
second rate.  So, I started to try to find out what MIS was like.  The
testing was an outgrowth of this.  And the MIS VM inkset is my response to
those who wanted an MIS-based variable-tone inkset.

As the VM X3 test indicates, the MIS VM inkset is not likely to be the last
one I mix.  The VM X3, by the way, can be mixed from competitively-available
components -- not just MIS materials.  And it is something I do on my own,
not at the request of MIS, with whom I have no formal relationship.  I do
receive free materials from MIS and sometimes other sellers, sometimes
unsolicited, but I understand this is typical for those who the sellers
consider movers and shakers.  I also receive personal e-mails from
pissed-off sellers whose papers or inks did not do too well in my tests.  I
just can't please all the people all the time.  However, I have never
intended to trash any of the competitors, though my casual or indiscreet
writing might unintentionally have had that effect.

I am still not satisfied with the state of the art in this little quad
industry.  The warm-shifting is a big pain.  I want to be able to
incrementally add prints to my collection as I make them.  The new ones must
be close enough to the old ones in color to not stand out like sore thumbs.
So, that is what I'm working on now -- for my own purposes.  When I get a
mix that seems sufficiently better than the MIS VM inkset that I decide to
use it, I'll probably offer it to MIS first.  I'd much rather have some ink
company mix the inks for me, and I appreciate the quality information and
materials I've received from Bob Zeiss.  But, this is not an MIS project,
and MIS might not even be interested in bothering with another inkset.

That's OK, this is what I do for me and for fun.  I also, of course, hope my
efforts are helpful to the interests of all quad ink consumers.  Public
service and consumer protection has, after all, been my life's career.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com


________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Flashner [mailto:tflash@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 11:53 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Fade test - German Etching & Piezo, MIS VM &X3
on EAM


on 10/17/01 3:11 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> I am very puzzled as to what your reasons are to question Paul's
> motivation and integrity. He has done a great deal of work with the
> inks and shared the information freely. I do not understand your
> antagonism.

I think some air needs to be cleared here. I hope I'm not being too
presumptuous or provocative, but here goes.

I get the feeling JB is not the only person on this list who think Paul is
affiliated with MIS, and is thus an opponent, competitor, or in some way has
an axe to grind with Cone's Piezo. I think people presumptuous that because
he writes curves for the MIS inks, and in fact, contributes to their inkset
formulations, so it's not a far fetched notion.

Paul, lets say I accuse you of (which I don't BTW), for whatever reason,
being biased against Piezo, and perhaps engaging in misinformation or biased
information toward their products. Would you care to state for yourself what
your "position" is relative to either or both of those manufacturers?

Todd

on 10/17/01 6:42 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> I'm not inclined to respond too much to skeptics or critics, but at the risk
> of throwing gasoline on the fire, I will try to explain where I'm coming
> from.


Paul,

While I don't share your same sense of fun I certainly share your ambition
to have quality, fade free products at affordable prices, so I appreciate
your efforts, and the generosity with which you give away the fruits of your
labors.

Todd

Paul,

I couldn't agree more. 

This is the one thing that I also get blasted for from time to time. 
You try to point out some shortcomings or problems, lack of options, 
etc... with a given product in hopes of eliminating that pain for 
others when they encounter problems from said products. As a result 
you are labeled as a "hater" of that product with an axe to grind. If 
all we hear are glowing reviews of a product and its hype then we 
believe it. When that product fails to work as advertised, then 
obviously we don't know what we are doing, because everyone else 
has "perfect results and zero problems" with that product.

My view of this is that if a manufacturer believes they can hype the 
product enough and make neverending promises and the market buys into 
that, then that manufacturer has zero incentive to fix the existing 
problems as well as innovate new products. Look at the rate that 
Epson is introducing new printer models since Canon posed a serious 
threat with their newest photo printer. Epson was thrown a curve, and 
has introduced more new models in the past few months than ever in 
their history - in fact they just introduced another new photo 
printer yesterday (820 I think). They are also looking at inks and 
papers in a more serious light with the popularity of the 3rd party 
products. Would they be doing this if they didn't feel the need to do 
so to compete and expand their market?

Both the Piezo and MIS VM have flaws. Up until this point though 
there has been no competition for the Piezo system. Now we are at 
least seeing an option with the MIS VM. My hope (like yours) is that 
this perceived competition will help drive innovation and pricing 
irrelevant of who is making the product.

I for one an grateful for all of the hard work that you have done to 
date to help promote the advances in the quad market. And for what 
motivation? You are doing it in a quest for better products that in 
the end we will ALL benefit from. Plain and simple. No money or glory 
is invloved for you, just the satisfaction of hopefully advancing the 
art.

I hope that 5 years from now when those that chastise you now are 
using a product that is vastly superior to what they are using today, 
that they will remember those that helped push the competition (you, 
for one) to make that product possible!

My sincerest thanks,

Terry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Todd,
> 
> I'm not inclined to respond too much to skeptics or critics, but at 
the risk
> of throwing gasoline on the fire, I will try to explain where I'm 
coming
> from.
> 
> Of course, my critics are, in part, correct -- I do have my 
biases.  For
> example, I am biased against bullshit, and there seems to be a lot 
of that
> around -- more from some sellers that others.
> 
> Nobody ever accused me of being particularly politic -- or normal, 
for that
> matter.  So maybe people would understand my weird sense of fun if 
they knew
> where I'm coming from.  I am a retired Federal Trade Commission 
antitrust
> and consumer protection attorney.  I thoroughly enjoyed suing and 
kicking
> the butts of the biggest companies and even entire national 
industries.  If
> anyone wants a reference, ask Ralph Nader.  You can also ask any 
residential
> real estate broker about the radical shift in their industry from 
one where
> the buyer had no representation (but was led to believe s/he did) 
to one
> where most buyers are represented by agents. How did that happen?  
There was
> never even a big lawsuit on the issue.  There was this arcane FTC 
book that
> was published, but ...
> 
> The reason some people stay in government work is that, if they 
enjoy having
> an impact and have the ability, it provides a platform where a 
single person
> actually can affect radical change on entire industries.  And the 
effect is
> not necessarily through suing companies or enacting rules, or 
anything more
> than just disseminating a little information.  Our society lives on
> information even more than oil.  Tiny amounts of information can be 
the
> catalyst for really major change.  It can be a huge chess game, and 
there
> are a few of us who really enjoyed it -- and still do.
> 
> But, after 25 years of this, my life plan was and is to stop doing 
anything
> that is determined by the need for the $.  Now I just pursue those 
things
> that related to non-monetary rewards -- love of family, nature, 
beauty,
> photography, [(a good fight ;-)], etc.  Yes, it is a bit 
idealistic, but
> life is short, and I don't need a Mercedes.
> 
> So, as part of this, I wanted a good digital output for the 
hundreds of
> negatives I had produced during my mainstream-carrier phase of 
life.  I
> tried a bunch.  Piezo was the best.  I really appreciate the ease 
with which
> it got me up to speed, and Jon's information in the archives has 
been
> invaluable.
> 
> But, as my experience grew, I came to want more.  My Piezo outfit 
banded
> often, so I found that I could write RGB curves and use the Epson 
driver to
> cure that.  I found the color of Piezo less than ideal, for me.  
So, I
> developed a variable-tone Piezo-based inkset.  I made it all 
public.  Why
> not?  I'm not in the ink business.
> 
> The more I learned, however, the less enamored I became of some of 
the
> information being disseminated by the Piezo camp -- only Piezo is 
carbon
> based, Piezo is continuous tone, Piezo is pigments and doesn't 
fade, Piezo
> has the longest tonal range, ....  With my background, this BS just 
rubs me
> the wrong way.  One would think Cone Editions invented inkjet 
printing and
> quads.  In my view, good products like Piezo don't need this 
nonsense.  On
> the other hand, as I've told Jon in e-mails, with my personality I 
couldn't
> sell a thing.  I understand that salesmanship often involves hype.
> 
> At any rate, I was originally left with the impression that Piezo 
was the
> ultimate and the cheap MIS alternative was just trash.  Finally, 
some Piezo
> users (Jerry, among others) suggested that I try to make a variable-
tone ink
> mix based on MIS.  So, that sounded like an interesting alternative 
and
> challenge.  However, I didn't want to waste my time on an inkset 
that was
> second rate.  So, I started to try to find out what MIS was like.  
The
> testing was an outgrowth of this.  And the MIS VM inkset is my 
response to
> those who wanted an MIS-based variable-tone inkset.
> 
> As the VM X3 test indicates, the MIS VM inkset is not likely to be 
the last
> one I mix.  The VM X3, by the way, can be mixed from competitively-
available
> components -- not just MIS materials.  And it is something I do on 
my own,
> not at the request of MIS, with whom I have no formal 
relationship.  I do
> receive free materials from MIS and sometimes other sellers, 
sometimes
> unsolicited, but I understand this is typical for those who the 
sellers
> consider movers and shakers.  I also receive personal e-mails from
> pissed-off sellers whose papers or inks did not do too well in my 
tests.  I
> just can't please all the people all the time.  However, I have 
never
> intended to trash any of the competitors, though my casual or 
indiscreet
> writing might unintentionally have had that effect.
> 
> I am still not satisfied with the state of the art in this little 
quad
> industry.  The warm-shifting is a big pain.  I want to be able to
> incrementally add prints to my collection as I make them.  The new 
ones must
> be close enough to the old ones in color to not stand out like sore 
thumbs.
> So, that is what I'm working on now -- for my own purposes.  When I 
get a
> mix that seems sufficiently better than the MIS VM inkset that I 
decide to
> use it, I'll probably offer it to MIS first.  I'd much rather have 
some ink
> company mix the inks for me, and I appreciate the quality 
information and
> materials I've received from Bob Zeiss.  But, this is not an MIS 
project,
> and MIS might not even be interested in bothering with another 
inkset.
> 
> That's OK, this is what I do for me and for fun.  I also, of 
course, hope my
> efforts are helpful to the interests of all quad ink consumers.  
Public
> service and consumer protection has, after all, been my life's 
career.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> ________________
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Flashner [mailto:tflash@e...]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 11:53 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Fade test - German Etching & Piezo, 
MIS VM &X3
> on EAM
> 
> 
> on 10/17/01 3:11 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:
> 
> > I am very puzzled as to what your reasons are to question Paul's
> > motivation and integrity. He has done a great deal of work with 
the
> > inks and shared the information freely. I do not understand your
> > antagonism.
> 
> I think some air needs to be cleared here. I hope I'm not being too
> presumptuous or provocative, but here goes.
> 
> I get the feeling JB is not the only person on this list who think 
Paul is
> affiliated with MIS, and is thus an opponent, competitor, or in 
some way has
> an axe to grind with Cone's Piezo. I think people presumptuous that 
because
> he writes curves for the MIS inks, and in fact, contributes to 
their inkset
> formulations, so it's not a far fetched notion.
> 
> Paul, lets say I accuse you of (which I don't BTW), for whatever 
reason,
> being biased against Piezo, and perhaps engaging in misinformation 
or biased
> information toward their products. Would you care to state for 
yourself what
> your "position" is relative to either or both of those 
manufacturers?
> 
> Todd

Hi Paul

I'm going to be needing to reorder some inks soon. How long do you think
it'll be before you are ready to release details of your new mix, and does
it share any ink positions with the current MIS VM set? IOW, if I only use a
little bit of those inks before choosing to change to VM X3 will any of
those inks be salvageable as components of VM X3?

Thanks

Your fan,
Todd

Sorry Paul, I intended that to be off list!

Todd

> Hi Paul
> 
> I'm going to be needing to reorder some inks soon. How long do you think it'll
> be before you are ready to release details of your new mix, and does it share
> any ink positions with the current MIS VM set? IOW, if I only use a little bit
> of those inks before choosing to change to VM X3 will any of those inks be
> salvageable as components of VM X3?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Your fan,
> Todd

Don't worry nobody here will read this super secret information .
(wink, wink)

Dave


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
<tflash@e...> wrote:
> Sorry Paul, I intended that to be off list!
> 
> Todd
> 
> > Hi Paul
> > 
> > I'm going to be needing to reorder some inks soon. How 
long do you think it'll
> > be before you are ready to release details of your new mix, 
and does it share
> > any ink positions with the current MIS VM set? IOW, if I only 
use a little bit
> > of those inks before choosing to change to VM X3 will any of 
those inks be

> > salvageable as components of VM X3?
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Your fan,
> > Todd