Digital BW, The Print

Paul clearly told the list WHY he made curves and why he gives them
away. He is NOT associated with MIS.

Jerry

Why? Because of Cone's refusal to release a cool color inkset, AND the
five times the cost of Piezo inks when compared with most other inksets.
 Also because he found out that by writing curves he could get totally
dot free prints, just like Cone. 
 
Simple as that.

Jerry



Todd Flashner wrote:

> 
> on 10/17/01 3:11 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:
> 
> > I am very puzzled as to what your reasons are to question Paul's
> > motivation and integrity. He has done a great deal of work with the
> > inks and shared the information freely. I do not understand your
> > antagonism.
> 
> I think some air needs to be cleared here. I hope I'm not being too
> presumptuous or provocative, but here goes.
> 
> I get the feeling JB is not the only person on this list who think Paul is
> affiliated with MIS, and is thus an opponent, competitor, or in some way has
> an axe to grind with Cone's Piezo. I think people presumptuous that because
> he writes curves for the MIS inks, and in fact, contributes to their inkset
> formulations, so it's not a far fetched notion.
> 
> Paul, lets say I accuse you of (which I don't BTW), for whatever reason,
> being biased against Piezo, and perhaps engaging in misinformation or biased
> information toward their products. Would you care to state for yourself what
> your "position" is relative to either or both of those manufacturers?
> 
> Todd
> 
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> 
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
snip

>...Because of Cone's refusal to release a cool color inkset

Jerry, I'm wondering why, when Cone doesn't release something on a schedule you approve of, you indignantly claim he 
"refuses". You said the same thing about an EAM profile, here it is. Time after time they have said a cool set is in 
development, rather than refusing. Perhaps they are putting a little more into it than sloshing some color ink in there and 
tossing it out on the market, perhaps there is some other problem. In my opinion, it's not going to be as easy as it may 
seem.
I'm also wondering how good an idea it is for me to now hit the send button...
Tyler

Sorry Tyler, Wrong choice of words. Substitute 'hasn't' for refuses.

When the first piezo came out about 20 months ago or so, I asked him
when he would have the cold inks, as I didn't care for the regular inks.
He said very soon. I've asked him about 6-7 times since, and he always
says soon, or very shortly. I think 20 months is long enough to wait for
a product. After that, it sort of becomes vaporware.

I'm sure he will eventually release them, but I've moved on from piezo
now. As soon as my inks are gone, that's it.
My 1280 and Paul's curves are every bit as good as piezo prints at 1/5th
the price of inks.

I am NOT saying anything bad about cones products, they are great, and
most people love them. But for me, I want the cold tones and lower
priced inks.

Jerry

> Jerry, I'm wondering why, when Cone doesn't release something on a schedule you approve of, you indignantly claim he
> "refuses". You said the same thing about an EAM profile, here it is snippity snip.

By the way, have you tried the EAM profile?  On my printer, the middle
tones are flat and muddy, although there is a nice deep black, and a
pure white in the prints. They can be tweaked of course, but with a
profile, you shouldn't have to do that. Most of his other profiles are great.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Sorry Tyler, Wrong choice of words. Substitute 'hasn't' for refuses.

'nough said.

> By the way, have you tried the EAM profile?

see message # 2716

  On my printer, the middle
> tones are flat and muddy, although there is a nice deep black, and a
> pure white in the prints. They can be tweaked of course, but with a
> profile, you shouldn't have to do that. Most of his other profiles are great.

It was as near flawless as I've ever seen in quad output. You might check your settings and gradations in the file that 
produced those results.
Tyler

Tyler, I did check all the settings. and they were correct.  Printed a
couple different pictures, first with Paul's system, then with the Piezo
system.  Same thing, flat middle tones. EAM paper 1440 DPI. Piezo EAM
Profile.  No color adjustment.

Based on your comments, I'll try it on several more files.  I'm using an
1160, and you have a 7000, right? possibly a difference here, I don't know.

Jerry

>   On my printer, the middle
> > tones are flat and muddy, although there is a nice deep black, and a
> > pure white in the prints. They can be tweaked of course, but with a
> > profile, you shouldn't have to do that. Most of his other profiles are great.
> 
> It was as near flawless as I've ever seen in quad output. You might check your settings and gradations in the file that
> produced those results.
> Tyler
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Tyler, I did check all the settings. and they were correct.  Printed a
> couple different pictures, first with Paul's system, then with the Piezo
> system.  Same thing, flat middle tones. EAM paper 1440 DPI. Piezo EAM
> Profile.  No color adjustment.

Non of these procedures are spot on acurate. A file adjusted to print well from one workflow may not print well from 
another. There may be unfortunate coincidental small inacuracies in oposite directions that really point this out.
> 
> Based on your comments, I'll try it on several more files. 

But Jerry, then you'd have warm prints! What possible good would that do you?

 I'm using an
> 1160, and you have a 7000, right?

3000
Tyler

Tyler, I still have a nearly full set of piezo inks I have to get rid
of. (Wanna buy 4 bottles that are 95 percent full?)

I have to use them for something, and a lot of people don't object to
warm prints, remember.

I'm using the settings Jon Cone recommends for Piezo printing. I use
totally different settings for paul's curves and MIS inks. Different
printers, too.

Jerry


Tyler Boley wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > Tyler, I did check all the settings. and they were correct.  Printed a
> > couple different pictures, first with Paul's system, then with the Piezo
> > system.  Same thing, flat middle tones. EAM paper 1440 DPI. Piezo EAM
> > Profile.  No color adjustment.

Tyler,

I agree with you and I want to add that we all need to keep in mind 
that manufacturing and marketing quad/hex ink sets and software has a 
very low probability of getting anyone onto Forbes' list of richest 
people on the planet. Folks, this is a very small market at this 
point and very vulnerable to a B&W solution by Epson (might not 
satisfy the hardcore here but would definitely pull buyers out of the 
market.)

So the companies involved are in a real juggling act of how much R&D 
they can afford and I suspect that it is not a great deal.

The other issue is that this is not easy stuff. Making the inks 
and/or developing the software costs money. Any company that survives 
in this market will need good business sense as well as good ink 
technology.

As end users we need to discuss the relative strength and weaknesses 
of all the inks and technologies available to us but we also need to 
keep the not so big "big picture" in view.

Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> snip
> 
> >...Because of Cone's refusal to release a cool color inkset
> 
> Jerry, I'm wondering why, when Cone doesn't release something on a 
schedule you approve of, you indignantly claim he 
> "refuses". You said the same thing about an EAM profile, here it 
is. Time after time they have said a cool set is in 
> development, rather than refusing. Perhaps they are putting a 
little more into it than sloshing some color ink in there and 
> tossing it out on the market, perhaps there is some other problem. 
In my opinion, it's not going to be as easy as it may 
> seem.
> I'm also wondering how good an idea it is for me to now hit the 
send button...
> Tyler