Digital BW, The Print

I recently purchased some bulk Lyson Quad Black inks and empty
cartridges for my Canon S820 printer.  There are six inks labeled
black, dilute cyan, dilute magenta, cyan, magenta and yellow.  The
inks are labelled "Compatible with Canon S9000, i9100".  The After
flushing out my print head with cleaning solution I loaded the Lyson
ink cartridges into the corresponding positions in the printer.  The
Helix website, www.helixphoto.com (where I purchased the inks) says
that the inks I purchased are "For
3000/6000/6100/6500/8200/S450/S820/S450/S820/S800/
S9000/i900D/i950/i960/i9100".

Photos printed in Photoshop 7.0 with these inks are solarized and the
tonal values are all wrong. When I print an 11 step grayscale step
wedge the tonal gradation is not continuous - some intermediate gray
steps are dark gray (almost black). I don't have any Lyson paper -- I
used Ilford Printasia paper. I made a ton of test prints on this paper
of the step wedge using the profiles from Lyson's web site for the
Canon S800 and S9000 printers.  The grayscale patches were scrambled
in tone on all but two settings.  These were plain paper and print
quality 4 (worst), and transparency film and print quality 3 (the
lowest quality available at that setting).  In both instances there
was objectionable streaking.  I used print mode rgb and I do not check
the "grayscale Printing" option in the printer driver.

When I research Lyson Quad Black inks on Google I keep getting Lyson's
advertising claim: "By using simple colour curve adjustments in image
software such as Adobe PhotoShop, stunning black & white images with
tonal graduation to match traditional silver Halide printing can be
produced."  I wish they would tell their customers how to do these
"simple color curve adjustments".  Lyson's web site has no phone
number or email for technical support.

I've searched for Lyson Quad Black and Canon in this group and come up
empty.  Is anyone here using these inks on a Canon printer?  If so,
what kind of profiles and settings are you using?  If you are using
curve adjustments in PhotoShop, how do you do them?  I'm beginning to
think that if these inks work at all they only work on Epson printers.

Jim

Don't give up.  I've been using (the same) Lyson Quad Black inks in an 
S9000 for about a year now, and get very nice results.  I do use Convert BW 
Pro, a Photoshop plugin that converts color images to black and white (but 
leaves them RGB images) with controls that replicate what we commonly do 
when exposing and printing black and white film - contrast adjustment 
filters, exposure compensation, enlarger exposure adjustment and paper 
contrast selection.  You can do all of these adjustments in PS with curves 
and layers (and I gather that that's what the plugin is actually doing for 
me,) but the plugin makes it completely intuitive, as it lets me see what 
I'm adjusting as I move the sliders.

I also do most of my printing with QImage, although prints through 
Photoshop also come out fine - just not quite as nice as with QImage and 
without an easy way to place multiple images on a single sheet, which I do 
frequently.  I print on Legion Matte and Ilford Galerie Classic Gloss and 
Classic Pearl papers.

The Lyson web site has some printer profiles for matte and gloss papers, 
and I do apply those in the printing process.  It does make a difference 
when your profile matches the paper surface.

Cheers,
Kip


At 5/11/2004 01:45 PM +0000, you wrote:

>I recently purchased some bulk Lyson Quad Black inks and empty
>cartridges for my Canon S820 printer.  There are six inks labeled
>black, dilute cyan, dilute magenta, cyan, magenta and yellow.  The
>inks are labelled "Compatible with Canon S9000, i9100".  The After
>flushing out my print head with cleaning solution I loaded the Lyson
>ink cartridges into the corresponding positions in the printer.  The
>Helix website, www.helixphoto.com (where I purchased the inks) says
>that the inks I purchased are "For
>3000/6000/6100/6500/8200/S450/S820/S450/S820/S800/
>S9000/i900D/i950/i960/i9100".
>
>Photos printed in Photoshop 7.0 with these inks are solarized and the
>tonal values are all wrong. When I print an 11 step grayscale step
>wedge the tonal gradation is not continuous - some intermediate gray
>steps are dark gray (almost black). I don't have any Lyson paper -- I
>used Ilford Printasia paper. I made a ton of test prints on this paper
>of the step wedge using the profiles from Lyson's web site for the
>Canon S800 and S9000 printers.  The grayscale patches were scrambled
>in tone on all but two settings.  These were plain paper and print
>quality 4 (worst), and transparency film and print quality 3 (the
>lowest quality available at that setting).  In both instances there
>was objectionable streaking.  I used print mode rgb and I do not check
>the "grayscale Printing" option in the printer driver.
>
><snip>I've searched for Lyson Quad Black and Canon in this group and come up
>empty.  Is anyone here using these inks on a Canon printer?  If so,
>what kind of profiles and settings are you using?  If you are using
>curve adjustments in PhotoShop, how do you do them?  I'm beginning to
>think that if these inks work at all they only work on Epson printers.
>
>Jim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kip Babington
<cbabing3@s...> wrote:
> Don't give up.  I've been using (the same) Lyson Quad Black inks in
an 
> S9000 for about a year now, and get very nice results.  I do use
Convert BW 
> Pro, a Photoshop plugin that converts color images to black and
white (but 
> leaves them RGB images) with controls that replicate what we
commonly do 
> when exposing and printing black and white film - contrast
adjustment 
> filters, exposure compensation, enlarger exposure adjustment and
paper 
> contrast selection.  You can do all of these adjustments in PS with
curves 
> and layers (and I gather that that's what the plugin is actually
doing for 
> me,) but the plugin makes it completely intuitive, as it lets me see
what 
> I'm adjusting as I move the sliders.
> 
> I also do most of my printing with QImage, although prints through 
> Photoshop also come out fine - just not quite as nice as with QImage
and 
> without an easy way to place multiple images on a single sheet,
which I do 
> frequently.  I print on Legion Matte and Ilford Galerie Classic
Gloss and 
> Classic Pearl papers.
> 
> The Lyson web site has some printer profiles for matte and gloss
papers, 
> and I do apply those in the printing process.  It does make a
difference 
> when your profile matches the paper surface.
> 
> Cheers,
> Kip

Kip,

Thanks for the tips.  I can't find any product called "Convert BW
Pro".  Is there a web site for it?  Could you mean "BW Workflow Pro"?
I do have Qimage but I have been using PhotoShop to test the Lyson
inks.

Jim

Sorry I didn't have it quite right.  Try 
http://www.theimagingfactory.com/.  You may have to step through "products" 
and then select the convert program.  As I recall, there's a free trial 
download that's good for a while, so you might be able to just try it for a 
bit.  Coming from 30+ years of B&W darkroom work and wanting to do 
primarily B&W work in digital mode, this program struck me as the most 
immediately useful way to get control over B&W prints, and I think I bought 
it after just a couple of days' trial.  But since I was just beginning in 
digital image manipulation I was also having difficulty getting any kind of 
grasp on even the basics of Photoshop, and not having to deal with levels 
and curves at the beginning was another big attraction of this 
software.  If you don't have a lot of B&W film work behind you, or if 
you're more comfortable with Photoshop manipulations, or if you're not as 
focused on B&W output as I was, this may not be worth the price, as there 
are other ways to achieve the same results.  But I'd still recommend you 
try it and see.

Cheers,
Kip

At 5/11/2004 03:22 PM +0000, you wrote:

>Kip,
>
>Thanks for the tips.  I can't find any product called "Convert BW
>Pro".  Is there a web site for it?  Could you mean "BW Workflow Pro"?
>I do have Qimage but I have been using PhotoShop to test the Lyson
>inks.
>
>Jim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kip Babington
<cbabing3@s...> wrote:
> Sorry I didn't have it quite right.  Try 
> http://www.theimagingfactory.com/.  You may have to step through
"products" 
> and then select the convert program.  As I recall, there's a free trial 
> download that's good for a while, so you might be able to just try
it for a 
> bit.  Coming from 30+ years of B&W darkroom work and wanting to do 
> primarily B&W work in digital mode, this program struck me as the most 
> immediately useful way to get control over B&W prints, and I think I
bought 
> it after just a couple of days' trial.  But since I was just
beginning in 
> digital image manipulation I was also having difficulty getting any
kind of 
> grasp on even the basics of Photoshop, and not having to deal with
levels 
> and curves at the beginning was another big attraction of this 
> software.  If you don't have a lot of B&W film work behind you, or if 
> you're more comfortable with Photoshop manipulations, or if you're
not as 
> focused on B&W output as I was, this may not be worth the price, as
there 
> are other ways to achieve the same results.  But I'd still recommend
you 
> try it and see.
> 
> Cheers,
> Kip
> 
> At 5/11/2004 03:22 PM +0000, you wrote:
> 
> >Kip,
> >
> >Thanks for the tips.  I can't find any product called "Convert BW
> >Pro".  Is there a web site for it?  Could you mean "BW Workflow Pro"?
> >I do have Qimage but I have been using PhotoShop to test the Lyson
> >inks.
> >
> >Jim

Kip,

I'll try it out.  I do have quite a bit of darkroom experience, but it
 was years ago.  Now I'd rather do my printing with an inkjet than
mess with developer, stop bath, fixer, hypo clearing agent, toning,
washing, drying, and dry mounting. 

Jim

My sentiments exactly.  I never took another frame of film after I made my 
first inkjet print from a good (4Mp at the time) digital camera.  I no 
longer own a film camera, and am in the process of selling off my darkroom 
equipment.  Inkjet has its own challenges, but at least you can address 
them siting down in the light.

Be aware, though, that print drying is still a recommended practice if you 
use the Lyson inks on glossy surfaces, at least that has been my experience 
with Ilford Galerie Classic Gloss and Pearl papers.  I usually hang those 
prints by a corner and let them dry overnight, just as I used to do with RC 
prints in my darkroom.  If you look across the surface of the print right 
after it comes out of the printer you can see what appears to be ink 
standing proud above the surface - I don't think it really is the ink 
itself, as it doesn't smear very readily although it does feel a bit 
"sticky" if you touch it.  But after an overnight dry the surface is 
perfectly smooth and shiny everywhere.  Matte paper just seems to suck up 
the ink immediately, although even there it probably doesn't hurt to leave 
the image surface exposed to air for some period.

Cheers,
Kip

At 5/12/2004 01:39 PM +0000, Jim wrote:

>I'll try it out.  I do have quite a bit of darkroom experience, but it
>  was years ago.  Now I'd rather do my printing with an inkjet than
>mess with developer, stop bath, fixer, hypo clearing agent, toning,
>washing, drying, and dry mounting.