Digital BW, The Print

i'm getting ugly bands of color -- greenish and magenta -- in my black and white prints 
(epson 2200, enhanced matte, standard inks). i'd appreciate any advice on how to fix this.

i'm converting to B&W with fred miranda's BW Pro, then i'm quadtoning with my own 
variant of some quadtone presets i've found. i'm using epson's paper-specific profiles -- 
the latest ones.

the effect is only noticeable in areas of fairly even grey; the tone changes seem to be
accompanied by these ugly color changes. for example, in a portrait the area in which the 
hair meets the face has a greenish halo around it. in many of my photos, the effect isn't 
noticeable at all, presumably because the contrast is higher, and because there aren't 
areas of fine gradations in grey.

any idea what's going on?

at first i thought it was my quadtones, but i get the same problem (albeit to slightly lesser 
degree) even with a pure grayscale print.

i'm considering buying custom profiles. would that solve my problem? any experience out 
there with:
	cathy's profiles
	dry creek
	christophe metairie?
	
and some other related questions:

-- i'm adjusting levels AFTER conversion to B&W and toning, because otherwise the toning 
can mess it up. is that a bad thing to do? could it skew the colors? i've tried doing it the 
other way (levels first), but i still get the color band problems.

-- are the profiles for epson paper made by dry creek ($175) -- not custom ones -- really 
any better than epson's?

-- i haven't managed to find any really good quadtone presets, although i've made some 
progress tweaking ones i've found on the web. what often is described as a 'selenium 
toning' preset produces a print that's almost sepia -- makes me wonder whether the 
people who create these have ever really seen a selenium print. any idea where to find 
good presets?

-- could my color space settings be affecting this? my understanding is that if i use the 
wrong color spaces in photoshop, i'll just get reduced gamut in the worst case, not 
problems like these color bands.

/daniel

> From: daniel [mailto:dnjbackup@...]
>
> i'm getting ugly bands of color -- greenish and magenta -- in my
> black and white prints
> (epson 2200, enhanced matte, standard inks). i'd appreciate any
> advice on how to fix this.
>
> i'm converting to B&W with fred miranda's BW Pro, then i'm
> quadtoning with my own
> variant of some quadtone presets i've found. i'm using epson's
> paper-specific profiles --
> the latest ones.

Huh? What do you mean by quadtoning? Quadtone prints use four different
shades of gray or black, not the standard Epson inks.

The latest Epson profiles are very good at B&W, albeit not perfect. If
you're seeing anything more than a very slight color cast at some midtone
levels, then you're doing something grossly wrong.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco" 
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: daniel [mailto:dnjbackup@y...]
> >
> > i'm getting ugly bands of color -- greenish and magenta -- in my
> > black and white prints
> > (epson 2200, enhanced matte, standard inks). i'd appreciate any
> > advice on how to fix this.
> >
> > i'm converting to B&W with fred miranda's BW Pro, then i'm
> > quadtoning with my own
> > variant of some quadtone presets i've found. i'm using epson's
> > paper-specific profiles --
> > the latest ones.
> 
> Huh? What do you mean by quadtoning? Quadtone prints use four different
> shades of gray or black, not the standard Epson inks.

i mean using photoshop's quadtone feature to exploit the standard inks to get different 
tonal effects. in many cases, this works very well for me, and gives much more attractive 
B&W prints than just printing a grayscale image.

> The latest Epson profiles are very good at B&W, albeit not perfect. If
> you're seeing anything more than a very slight color cast at some midtone
> levels, then you're doing something grossly wrong.

like what?

/daniel

> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

Daniel,

First, it sounds like you aren't implementing your color profiles 
correctly.
Maybe double-profiling.
Have a look at the color profiling information on our website, which 
explains how to use printer profiles with PhotoShop and the Epson 
driver.

Second, a custom color profile for your printer will get you closer 
than the generic epson one.
I have profiles that print very neutral for the EEM/UC combination.
However, you'll need a custom profile for each combination you might 
use.

To have full control of both color and b&w on your 2200, I'd recommend 
a RIP.

John Toles
http://www.dragonflyprinting.com/
http://www.dragonflygallery.ca/

On Jun 9, 2004, at 11:57 AM, daniel wrote:

> i'm getting ugly bands of color -- greenish and magenta -- in my black 
> and white prints
> (epson 2200, enhanced matte, standard inks). i'd appreciate any advice 
> on how to fix this.
>
> i'm converting to B&W with fred miranda's BW Pro, then i'm quadtoning 
> with my own
> variant of some quadtone presets i've found. i'm using epson's 
> paper-specific profiles --
> the latest ones.
>
> the effect is only noticeable in areas of fairly even grey; the tone 
> changes seem to be
> accompanied by these ugly color changes. for example, in a portrait 
> the area in which the
> hair meets the face has a greenish halo around it. in many of my 
> photos, the effect isn't
> noticeable at all, presumably because the contrast is higher, and 
> because there aren't
> areas of fine gradations in grey.
>
> any idea what's going on?
>
> at first i thought it was my quadtones, but i get the same problem 
> (albeit to slightly lesser
> degree) even with a pure grayscale print.
>
> i'm considering buying custom profiles. would that solve my problem? 
> any experience out
> there with:
> 	cathy's profiles
> 	dry creek
> 	christophe metairie?
> 	
> and some other related questions:
>
> -- i'm adjusting levels AFTER conversion to B&W and toning, because 
> otherwise the toning 
> can mess it up. is that a bad thing to do? could it skew the colors? 
> i've tried doing it the
> other way (levels first), but i still get the color band problems.
>
> -- are the profiles for epson paper made by dry creek ($175) -- not 
> custom ones -- really 
> any better than epson's?
>
> -- i haven't managed to find any really good quadtone presets, 
> although i've made some 
> progress tweaking ones i've found on the web. what often is described 
> as a 'selenium
> toning' preset produces a print that's almost sepia -- makes me wonder 
> whether the
> people who create these have ever really seen a selenium print. any 
> idea where to find
> good presets?
>
> -- could my color space settings be affecting this? my understanding 
> is that if i use the 
> wrong color spaces in photoshop, i'll just get reduced gamut in the 
> worst case, not
> problems like these color bands.
>
> /daniel

> From: daniel [mailto:dnjbackup@...]
>
> i mean using photoshop's quadtone feature to exploit the standard
> inks to get different
> tonal effects. in many cases, this works very well for me, and
> gives much more attractive
> B&W prints than just printing a grayscale image.

But with the standard Epson driver, you don't have control over the
individual inks, whatever Photoshop's quadtone dialog implies. Everything
gets converted back into RGB for sending to the printer. If the result looks
neutral on the screen, but doesn't on the paper, the fact that you built the
image using various "colors" means nothing--it's the flattened appearance
that gets sent to the printer.

What settings are you using in the Print with Preview dialog? What settings
are you using in the Epson driver?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

paul,

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco" 
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: daniel [mailto:dnjbackup@y...]
> >
> > i mean using photoshop's quadtone feature to exploit the standard
> > inks to get different
> > tonal effects. in many cases, this works very well for me, and
> > gives much more attractive
> > B&W prints than just printing a grayscale image.
> 
> But with the standard Epson driver, you don't have control over the
> individual inks, whatever Photoshop's quadtone dialog implies. Everything
> gets converted back into RGB for sending to the printer. If the result looks
> neutral on the screen, but doesn't on the paper, the fact that you built the
> image using various "colors" means nothing--it's the flattened appearance
> that gets sent to the printer.

yes, i realize that quadtoning in this way is only 'pseudo quadtoning'. the purpose is not to 
get neutral tones, but to simulate the effect, eg, of selenium toning. 
 
> What settings are you using in the Print with Preview dialog? What settings
> are you using in the Epson driver?

i've experimented with most of these.

original color space is adobe RGB
printer color space is epson's 1440 dpi profile for enhanced matte
relative colorimetric (tried others too)
blackpoint compensation on (and tried off)

in the driver, under print settings:
advanced settings, 1440dpi (tried 2880 too), not high speed, enhanced matte paper
under color settings:
no color management

i've also tried advice from luminous landscape -- color controls set to photorealistic to get 
better shadow details.

none of this seems to help.

i should say that this effect is quite subtle: its only noticeable on some prints, and only in 
certain areas.

/daniel

> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

Daniel, have you looked at the Photokit actions?  
Great plug-in for toning, I think it's got something
150 different specific actions like sepia, selenium,
cool/warm, etc.  

Developed by a group of noteworthy experts in 
photoshop and photography.

Here's a link:

http://www.pixelgenius.com/photokit/index.html

-kris

> 
> yes, i realize that quadtoning in this way is only 'pseudo 
> quadtoning'. the purpose is not to get neutral tones, but to 
> simulate the effect, eg, of selenium toning. 
>  
> > What settings are you using in the Print with Preview dialog? What 
> > settings are you using in the Epson driver?
> 
> i've experimented with most of these.
>

> From: daniel [mailto:dnjbackup@...]
>
> yes, i realize that quadtoning in this way is only 'pseudo
> quadtoning'. the purpose is not to
> get neutral tones, but to simulate the effect, eg, of selenium toning.
>
> > What settings are you using in the Print with Preview dialog?
> What settings
> > are you using in the Epson driver?
>
> i've experimented with most of these.
>
> original color space is adobe RGB
> printer color space is epson's 1440 dpi profile for enhanced matte
> relative colorimetric (tried others too)
> blackpoint compensation on (and tried off)
>
> in the driver, under print settings:
> advanced settings, 1440dpi (tried 2880 too), not high speed,
> enhanced matte paper
> under color settings:
> no color management

You're doing the right things. I usually use Rel Col with BPC checked.

> i've also tried advice from luminous landscape -- color controls
> set to photorealistic to get
> better shadow details.
>
> none of this seems to help.

I think if you want to do this, you have to have a profile built with these
settings.

> i should say that this effect is quite subtle: its only
> noticeable on some prints, and only in
> certain areas.

If it's subtle, then it's probably "normal". Even the new profiles from
Epson aren't perfect. I built a profile with the same gear (Eye-One Pro
spectro) and got something that looked identical to Epson's profile, without
tweaking. It looks to me like what it would take to get rid of the faint
color casts that appear at certain gray levels would be some manual profile
editing, and I assume Epson didn't do that either.

Whether a custom profile would solve the problem depends upon whether the
profiling service is willing to do a "closed loop", where you send back a
print made with the first profile, and have them tweak the profile. Open
loop profiling on the 2200 just doesn't seem to quite nail the grayscale.

ImagePrint is a good alternative, if you can afford it. It prints B&W with
mostly black and light black ink, only mixing in the minimum amount of color
ink needed to pull the tone to neutral (or to whatever you set it for). It
produces much more neutral results, at the cost of a little more bronzing.
There's also Black Only printing, but the dots are bigger and the prints
have a distinct brown cast.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...