Digital BW, The Print

I have run across a couple of postings here where people 
refered to the "new revelations about silver print longevity".

Where can I read this published information? I'm just curious 
and am putting together a file of technical information on 
contemporary printmaking.

I have never heard this before visiting this site. I know Wilhelm 
told everyone years ago to  "avoid at all cost" black and white RC 
meda, primarily because of the quick fix and washing via 
automated processors assiciated with commercial output . But 
I've always known that rc black and white was never designed for 
permanence but rather speed. LIke the old saying, " are black 
and white rc papers archival" - answer " God, I hope not"

But I never knew there was new data about carefully processed , 
washed and toned silver prints. Interesting.

John,

I am not the source of your quote, but I have been very interested in
"lightly selenium toned, fiber-based silver print" longevity because that is
what I did for years, and it is held out as the ultimate, whether true or
not.

Here are a few things I've read or learned on the subject.

From RIT, it appears that the 1:19 selenium toning most of us were doing,
based on Kodak's recommendations and reiterated in Adams' books, was not
adequate to fully protect the silver from oxidation and gas attack.
Oxidized silver apparently becomes transparent, so the image fades.  The
typical "toned" silver print is, it turns out, only partially toned.

I have read somewhere that an un-toned silver print would be rated at only
about "150 years" of display.  I have not seen what I consider a good test
on this subject, however.  On the other hand, I've seen writers blithely
state that a toned silver print will last for a millennium (citing no tests,
of course).

Several years ago I stuck a typical "partially toned" silver print in my
fader and, while there was some detectable yellowing (they do/did use
brighteners, I think) the image was rock solid.  The test was not long
enough to tell much about the silver print, being aimed at the old pigments.
However, I concluded from it that they were way ahead of the last generation
of ink (old PiezoBW and MIS VM).  I might try again with the UT8 formula
neutral (new toner) and more modern carbon.  However, this won't happen for
some months at least.

With respect to long term storage, the fiber-based silver prints are subject
to acid attack.  RIT's apparent findings and my personal experience indicate
that the un-buffered paper is easily attacked with acids.  Once an acidic
chain reaction starts, I think buffers are needed to stop it.  So, for
example, fiber prints of mine that were stored for about 15 years in a metal
cabinet that also contained cheaper paper (I suspect file folders) tested as
acidic with the Abbey acid test pen.  There was visible yellowing of the
paper when viewed from the back.  The yellowing was more around the edges,
less in the centers.  That is, it was rather obvious that the acids were
diffusing in from the edges.

I know of no accepted remedy for this, but based on what I've read in the
library conservation field, I've found that ammonia gas will mop up the
acids, though it does not leave a buffer behind in the paper for future
protection.  So, I put a test print in a bag with a cap of ammonia for 15
minutes.  After that it tested as neutral.  Hanging my darkroom, it has
stayed neutral. 

I think the lesson in this is to store fiber prints with buffered
interleaving against the back paper.  I suspect buffered mat board is also
effective.  So, I'm really not worried about my dry mounted silver prints.
(I would not use Wei T'o deacidification spray on a silver print.)

At any rate, these are the main issues that come to mind.  While I think we
have already beat the silver print with respect to long term dark storage
(because we can use buffered cotton paper), with respect to lightfastness I
still consider the fiber print as the standard and my target.  I will
continue to look for ways to improve the inks at least until I can produce a
print that will equal or exceed that standard.  I doubt we're there yet --
but getting close.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
_____________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: john dean [mailto:deanwork2003@...] 
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 6:03 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Current Fade Data of Gelatin Silver Fiber Prints?

I have run across a couple of postings here where people 
refered to the "new revelations about silver print longevity".

Where can I read this published information? I'm just curious 
and am putting together a file of technical information on 
contemporary printmaking.

I have never heard this before visiting this site. I know Wilhelm 
told everyone years ago to  "avoid at all cost" black and white RC 
meda, primarily because of the quick fix and washing via 
automated processors assiciated with commercial output . But 
I've always known that rc black and white was never designed for 
permanence but rather speed. LIke the old saying, " are black 
and white rc papers archival" - answer " God, I hope not"

But I never knew there was new data about carefully processed , 
washed and toned silver prints. Interesting. 




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Thanks Paul,

As usual you were very thorough! Yes, I used the "lightly" toned 
method that  A. Adam's suggested for years also, as did 
thousands of darkroom junkies. Any more selenium than that 
made for quite purplish or brownish prints. This is probably why 
Emmet Gowin and others have started gold toning their work in 
the last decade. Of course that is a very specific hue which 
doesn't work for everything. In fairness to A. Adams science, it 
seems to me that he always refered to an "archivally processed" 
print as one lasting at least 100 years. 

I am sure inkjet is going to actually surpass the previous 
chemical media in longevity before long.  We have made radical 
progress in the last 5 years thanks to people like you. I know 
when I used to show work at the Center in Tucson we had this 
beautiful Carlton Watkins Yosomite portolio where the albumen 
prints were glued into a book. The prints that dated from the 
1880's were in excellent condition all around ( as were workd by 
Steglitz, Steichen, Julia Cameron,etc etc), except for the very 
edges where the acidity in the paper of the book stained those 
print edges. What saved the prints was actually the glue that he 
used to mount the prints with, whatever that was, seperating 
them from the acidity in the books paper. I was much more 
worried about Gene Smith's master prints that weredry mounted 
on cheap black cardboard and stored on the floor under the bed 
in this manhattan loft.

I am still a big believer in Premier Art spray and think products 
like this are going be part of the solution in the long run, but not 
the whole solution as you suggest. I just have not had the 
significant reduction in d-max in my Epson CF prints or Lyson 
Quad prints, that others have described, of course I have not 
been using carbon quad pigments but will be doing so this 
month. Then I may see that for myself.

Thanks,

John

I have no data but since I've made reference to the breakdown of
previous assumptions about traditional processes I'll respond. I don't
recall where I saw it or do I recall any actual fade data. Somewhere
in my aging memory is a glop of several comments over the last few
years that collections were experiencing problems they hadn't
expected, so it's a topic I've bandied about perhaps too loosely, but
it's out there. I have heard reference to the partial toning problem
Paul refers to as well.
Also, here is an interesting discussion, based on a magazine article,
addressing various suppositions we held regarding mounting, and
mounting materials, as well.

http://www.superiorarchivalmats.com/sam/Article.html

Due to inks and coatings apparent sensitivity to pollutants, I've been
using this board though it may be overkill, please don't take this as
me promoting the product, only pointing you to an interesting article.
Tyler

That was thought provoking Tyler. As with a lot of your and Paul's 
posts, I printed it out for my records.

 I used Hollinger's borads for about 10 years when they were 
cheaper in bulk than other suppliers and after 25 years so far so 
good. I actually dry mounted silver print collages onto them. But 
this product discussed here is new.

What kind of dry mounting material is he using here? I guess 
that is worth studying carefully. A.Adams drymounted all his 
porfolios as did Fred Sommer, Uelsman, Gowin( in the old days) 
etc. We were always taught that it was the wrong thing do do and 
hinging was best stragegy because if the board was damaged 
or discolored the print could be removed. This seems to be a 
reversal of that approach. That comment about the storage 
boxes needing to be evaluated was totally on target. 

Buffered board can be damaging to the dyes of color coupler 
photographs, but what about pigment inkjet prints? Buffering 
should help them, right? Is there any reason to avoid buffering 
when it comes to storage of inkjet media?

I'm not supposed to be thinking about permanence again. I was 
supposed to finish up obsessing about that last week.

> I am not the source of your quote, but I have been very 
> interested in "lightly selenium toned, fiber-based silver 
> print" longevity because that is what I did for years, and it 
> is held out as the ultimate, whether true or not.

Down the street there is an early Moonrise displayed in really poor
conditions.  Out of the frame, hanging by the matt board, fluorescent
lights, the whole nine yards.  Though the dry mounting is not completely
intact, the print itself looks pretty good, in fact as good as ones I've
seen in galleries (I might think differently if I saw them side-by-side).
Pretty impressive that it lived through all that.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
...
> What kind of dry mounting material is he using here?

Don't know, doesn't seem to state.

> I guess 
> that is worth studying carefully. A.Adams drymounted all his 
> porfolios as did Fred Sommer, Uelsman, Gowin( in the old days) 
> etc. We were always taught that it was the wrong thing do do and 
> hinging was best stragegy because if the board was damaged 
> or discolored the print could be removed. This seems to be a 
> reversal of that approach.

I've seen the barrier benifit of dry mounting refered to elsewhere as
well, don't recall where but it's been known for quite a while.

>  That comment about the storage 
> boxes needing to be evaluated was totally on target. 
> 
> Buffered board can be damaging to the dyes of color coupler 
> photographs, but what about pigment inkjet prints? Buffering 
> should help them, right? Is there any reason to avoid buffering 
> when it comes to storage of inkjet media?

I'm really not sure, most damage I've seen results from evaporates
from adhesives creating a strong yellowing of the paper coating.
Nothing to do with ink, though I'm sure ink must be sensitrive to
certain chemicals as well.
I don't think there's been enough study done on any of this including
buffers. It's a brave new world.

Here's some info passed on to me from another list-

"All rubber based PSA adhesives we have tested turned
the coatings (fine art paper) yellow. This not only will happen at the
point of
contact but the contamination can travel/as a matter of fact if you
have a poly
print bag (not Polyester) and put a piect of rubber based tape on top
of it the
print inside will yellow. USE ACRYLIC ADHESIVE PSA."

Tyler

I read about the ArtCare materials, "zeolites," and "MicroChambers" a few
years ago and thought it sounded too good to be true.  So, I searched the
internet for more information and found nothing that contradicted the
claims.  See also 
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/waac/wn/wn18/wn18-1/wn18-106.html and

http://www.nielsen-bainbridge.com/Artcare/Conservator/IIIA-Zeolytes/Index.ht
m

I confess I have not used these products, even though it looks like we all
should be for out best "keepers."  It's surprising to me that there is not
more on the subject given the claims and apparent test results that have
been published.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@...] 
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:52 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Current Fade Data of Gelatin Silver Fiber Prints?

I have no data but since I've made reference to the breakdown of
previous assumptions about traditional processes I'll respond. I don't
recall where I saw it or do I recall any actual fade data. Somewhere
in my aging memory is a glop of several comments over the last few
years that collections were experiencing problems they hadn't
expected, so it's a topic I've bandied about perhaps too loosely, but
it's out there. I have heard reference to the partial toning problem
Paul refers to as well.
Also, here is an interesting discussion, based on a magazine article,
addressing various suppositions we held regarding mounting, and
mounting materials, as well.

http://www.superiorarchivalmats.com/sam/Article.html

Due to inks and coatings apparent sensitivity to pollutants, I've been
using this board though it may be overkill, please don't take this as
me promoting the product, only pointing you to an interesting article.
Tyler





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links