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Would like to GO BIG - Start with large format neg?

Would like to GO BIG - Start with large format neg?

2004-07-29 by jamie gannon

List,
I am interested in comments on process and equipment.
I currently am making pleasing prints with an Epson 3000 and Piezotones, shooting with 
Canon D10 in raw. Converting to b&w 16bit. No display calibration or purchased profiles. 
Using QTR. All trial and error I suppose. Lots of test strips and the best 
softproofing I can manage. Working on Mac, first gen mid tier G5 with Apple 21" display. I 
would like to print the images much larger! I will outsource the printing. But, my files are 
not suitable right?
When opening the raw image I use the 'raw' preview environment in PS and turn down the 
saturation completely, adjust the various image sliders till I get a decent histogram. I open 
as rgb, 16 bit, 300 ppi and at 6144 x 4996 (is this interpolating the image larger than its 
native res?). After converting to grayscale I end up with a 48mb, 16bit image. After tweaks 
and very minor cropping I have roughly a 20 inch image at 300ppi. How large can this go?
If I want significantly larger prints am I better off shooting large format (4x5) and drum 
scanning the negs? I would not have access to or a budget to rent some mega-mega 
digital camera.

Thanks,

Jamie

Re: [Digital BW] Would like to GO BIG - Start with large format neg?

2004-07-30 by J Vee

I can only give you my experience.  I print up to 48²X 60² at from 4²X5² or
11²X14 neg(or pos) and do a high end drum scan.  The 4X5 ³makes it² and
looks good, but the 11²X14² source results in an image which is noticeably
better, all other things being equal.  J Vee

On 7/29/04 6:36 PM, "jamie gannon" <jamie@...> wrote:

> List,
> I am interested in comments on process and equipment.
> I currently am making pleasing prints with an Epson 3000 and Piezotones,
> shooting with 
> Canon D10 in raw. Converting to b&w 16bit. No display calibration or purchased
> profiles. 
> Using QTR. All trial and error I suppose. Lots of test strips and the best
> softproofing I can manage. Working on Mac, first gen mid tier G5 with Apple
> 21" display. I 
> 


-- 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Would like to GO BIG - Start with large format neg?

2004-07-31 by Sam McCandless

>List,
>I am interested in comments on process and equipment.

Me too, Jamie. For economy I need to mat and frame, as well as scan 
and print, for myself. And given my small quarters, I think that 
means mattes no larger than 16 x 20 and therefore images no larger 
than about 11 x 14. But, unlike you, I do major cropping. So I too am 
interested in trying to work either with film larger than 35mm or 
with a digital camera with a sensor bigger than the 10D's.


>I currently am making pleasing prints with an Epson 3000 and 
>Piezotones, shooting with
>Canon D10 in raw. Converting to b&w 16bit. No display calibration or 
>purchased profiles.
>Using QTR. All trial and error I suppose. Lots of test strips and the best
>softproofing I can manage. Working on Mac, first gen mid tier G5 
>with Apple 21" display. I
>would like to print the images much larger! I will outsource the 
>printing. But, my files are
>not suitable right?

Yes, I think that's right, or at least conventional wisdom. But I 
believe the most important word here is your "pleasing". That is, I 
believe the question is: if you're pleased with the 10D on the 3000 
at about 16 x 20 at 300 ppi, what might be both affordable and 
pleasing in even larger formats?


>When opening the raw image I use the 'raw' preview environment in PS 
>and turn down the
>saturation completely, adjust the various image sliders till I get a 
>decent histogram. I open
>as rgb, 16 bit, 300 ppi and at 6144 x 4996 (is this interpolating 
>the image larger than its
>native res?).

Yes; the 10D's RAW resolution option is 3072 x 2048; so in your 
workflow, Photoshop is replacing about six million 10D pixels with 
about 30 million pixels Photoshop calculates as an enlarged 
approximation to the original array.


>After converting to grayscale I end up with a 48mb, 16bit image. After tweaks
>and very minor cropping I have roughly a [16 x] 20 inch image at 300ppi.
>How large can this go?

At least a little larger, I'd say, because I think 240 ppi is 
normally enough for the distances at which 16 x 20 and larger images 
are commonly viewed. In fact, at, say, 24 x 30, I think even as 
little as 180 ppi might be enough for at least some images on the 
Epson Stylus Pro 7600.


>If I want significantly larger prints am I better off shooting large 
>format (4x5) and drum
>scanning the negs? I would not have access to or a budget to rent 
>some mega-mega
>digital camera.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jamie

I doubt it. And doubt it despite the fact that I think medium-format 
film would be enough bigger and that Epson's best flat-bed scanner 
might do in place of the more expensive drum scanning. Because you'd 
have to replace your Canon lenses too, right? All that put together 
would, I think, cost at least as much as a bigger and better digital 
camera. Not that I'd do that either. What I'd consider instead is 
trying to go up to 24 x 30 on the 7600 at 240 or 180 ppi and waiting 
for Canon to replace the 6.3 MP 10D with an 8.2 MP 10D+ or something. 
I.e., just ride Canon's digital-camera development wave and, while 
waiting on their next mid-range camera, look for good chances to 
improve the lenses and tripods and flashes and filters, etc.
--
Sam, who's getting tired of waiting but still hasn't got all the 
lenses he wants

Re: Would like to GO BIG - Start with large format neg?

2004-07-31 by Antonis

>After tweaks 
> and very minor cropping I have roughly a 20 inch image at 300ppi. 
>How large can this go?
> If I want significantly larger prints am I better off shooting large
> format (4x5) and drum 
> scanning the negs? 


Jamie,

one way to test if you like the look of images that have been interpolated
to extremes is to actually perform the sizing of the file to whatever you are
aiming for, then print a section that fits your 3000. Put it up on a wall
and stand back far enough to have seen the whole uncropped image
if it were hanging there. Then judge if you think it's fallen apart or
if it's still "pleasing".

I assume you know all the tricks to interpolation....   and to applying just 
the right amount of usm. If not, experiment a bit, because those variables
may make a big difference in the results.

I'd also offer a little food for thought on the resolution front:
There is one approach to resolution which is by the numbers. You calculate
the original pixels, then the ideal dpi for your printer and that gives you
the limit of a maximum print size.

But there are some questions to consider; and answering them can be a
little more elusive. What actual image information are you going after? 
What distance are you viewing the final print from? 
Is it that you're looking for extra detail or for smoother tonal
transitions? And which of these variables actually matters to the subject-
matter at hand? 

As examples....  I have blown 35mm and 4x5 negs to 24x36", 
6x7 negs to 44x60" etc. all from the same original scan interpolated up.
The end result looks the "same" as the smaller prints as long as your
viewing distance is proportionately  adjusted. Needless to say, the larger
negs look crisper and smoother and with more detail than smaller ones
when blown up to the same print size. That's just physics.

Also there is a scan size below which you really wouldn't want to go
 to do this. Add to this that scan quality (drum vs Imacon vs flatbed) 
is a factor and you do have some of the real limitations to doing this.

In the case of the digital Canon files, your starting point is fixed. 
To find the limits of what looks good you have to actually see it,
the numbers alone won't do it. I'd also guess that if you shot film
with the same lenses you'd get better results. But that's a whole
other topic...

My point here is that often the reasons for making a really big
print is not to actually see more "information" in the original, but 
because print size dictates viewing distance which in turn affects
how we perceive an image in relation to our position in space.
A small print intimately held in our hands, a medium size print
matted and hanging on a wall inviting us to get closer, or a giant
print that dominates the room and forces us to stand back have
a huge impact on the picture and what it communicates. 
That's the elusive part I was talking about. It's not the numbers
so much as it is the "effect" of size.

Antonis

RE: [Digital BW] Would like to GO BIG - Start with large format neg?

2004-07-31 by Ken Carney

Hi, Jamie.  I don't print as large as you want to, but I do have experience
with 4x5 and 8x10 field cameras.  Just a few practical considerations:
First, with negatives or chromes, bigger is always better in an absolute
sense.  LF lenses aren't as sharp as good 35mm lenses, but they don't have
to be - 20 square inches of film is just going to capture more information
than 1 x 1.5".  But...photographing with LF is more contemplative, always a
tripod, meter readings, calculating your DOF and nothing happens really
fast.  View cameras shine with WA and normal lenses, and you're not going to
find any lens as long as you can get with your 10D.  If you scan a 4x5 neg
at 240, 16-bit grayscale, that will give you a 200mb+ file and a 40" wide
print with no cropping (If I've blown the math I'm sure someone will
correct).  So, if you start adding PS layers you will have a pretty big file
to work with, probably not that big of an issue with the computers we have
now.  A good drum scan is going to run about $100 anyway.  So if you're
lucky enough to get five keepers on a trip, you're out $500 more or less
before you even contract out the printing.

To get the best negatives with LF, for all practical purposes you have to
develop them yourself once you have your film speeds calibrated for
different placement of shadows and highlights (zone system).  Again, that is
not a problem but it is time-consuming and about as exciting as mowing the
grass.  You really have to be in the mood for it.  On the road, you will
need to seal off the hotel bathroom to change film, or go with Ready-loads.
Experience has taught to always have a Polaroid back to check focus and
exposure.  On the bright side, you can buy excellent LF gear and lenses
pretty cheap right now.  If you like the serene, contemplative approach and
just looking at the scene on the ground glass, LF may be for you.  Just a
few thoughts - hope it helps some.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jamie gannon [mailto:jamie@...] 
> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 6:36 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Would like to GO BIG - Start with large 
> format neg?
> 
> List,
> I am interested in comments on process and equipment.
> I currently am making pleasing prints with an Epson 3000 and 
> Piezotones, shooting with Canon D10 in raw. Converting to b&w 
> 16bit. No display calibration or purchased profiles. 
> Using QTR. All trial and error I suppose. Lots of test strips 
> and the best softproofing I can manage. Working on Mac, first 
> gen mid tier G5 with Apple 21" display. I would like to print 
> the images much larger! I will outsource the printing. But, 
> my files are not suitable right?
> When opening the raw image I use the 'raw' preview 
> environment in PS and turn down the saturation completely, 
> adjust the various image sliders till I get a decent 
> histogram. I open as rgb, 16 bit, 300 ppi and at 6144 x 4996 
> (is this interpolating the image larger than its native 
> res?). After converting to grayscale I end up with a 48mb, 
> 16bit image. After tweaks and very minor cropping I have 
> roughly a 20 inch image at 300ppi. How large can this go?
> If I want significantly larger prints am I better off 
> shooting large format (4x5) and drum scanning the negs? I 
> would not have access to or a budget to rent some mega-mega 
> digital camera.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jamie
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] Would like to GO BIG - Start with large format neg?

2004-08-01 by Clayton Jones

Hello Sam,

>What I'd consider instead is 
>trying to go up to 24 x 30 on the 7600 at 240 or 180 ppi and waiting 
>for Canon to replace the 6.3 MP 10D with an 8.2 MP 10D+ or
something. 
>I.e., just ride Canon's digital-camera development wave and, while 
>waiting on their next mid-range camera, look for good chances to 
>improve the lenses and tripods and flashes and filters, etc.

I agree.  I'm currently using the Canon 8mp Pro-1 and am impressed
with the quality at large sizes.  I temporarily enlarged a portrait to
several sizes in PS and printed out a section (part of the face with
eyeglass frame and hair) just to see what the limits were.  It went
all the way up to 22.5 x 30 at 108 dpi before jaggies were visible,
and that only with a loupe.  Even at that size up close, to the eye,
it held together amazingly well.  Individual hairs still sharp and
distinct, etc (what upper limit is acceptable, of course, depends on
the person).  At smaller sizes it means there is room to crop.  

I never would have thought that a print at 108 dpi could look even
half decent, but it is possible if the image holds together.  A lot,
of course has to do with the lens, and the Pro-1 has an incredibly
sharp "L" class lens.  With no film grain to enlarge, it becomes
purely a matter of pixel management.  

Here are the dpi numbers for the different sizes.  
Image size: 3264 x 2448  
This is a .75 ratio (6x8), typical of many digicams.

Print Size     dpi
--------------------
4.5 x 6        544
6 x 8          408
7.5 x 10       327
10.5 x 14      233
15 x 20        163
18 x 24        136
22.5 x 30      108


An 8mp DSLR image will have different numbers than this because of its
35mm-like dimensions (.67 ratio), but this should give some idea of
what to expect.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Would like to GO BIG - Start with large format neg?

2004-08-20 by Sam McCandless

Clayton's 8/1 post below gives us a some idea of what we can expect 
if we use one of Canon's best lenses with Canon's newly released 
successor to the 10D, which they've called the "20D". It's being 
reviewed now on

<http://www.dpreview.com/news/0408/04081909canon_eos20d.asp>

and on

<http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/20d-part1.shtml>

and I think I'm getting excited.
--
Sam


At 12:18 AM +0000 8/1/04, Clayton Jones wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Hello Sam,
>
>>What I'd consider instead is
>>trying to go up to 24 x 30 on the 7600 at 240 or 180 ppi and waiting
>>for Canon to replace the 6.3 MP 10D with an 8.2 MP 10D+ or
>something.
>>I.e., just ride Canon's digital-camera development wave and, while
>>waiting on their next mid-range camera, look for good chances to
>>improve the lenses and tripods and flashes and filters, etc.
>
>I agree.  I'm currently using the Canon 8mp Pro-1 and am impressed
>with the quality at large sizes.  I temporarily enlarged a portrait to
>several sizes in PS and printed out a section (part of the face with
>eyeglass frame and hair) just to see what the limits were.  It went
>all the way up to 22.5 x 30 at 108 dpi before jaggies were visible,
>and that only with a loupe.  Even at that size up close, to the eye,
>it held together amazingly well.  Individual hairs still sharp and
>distinct, etc (what upper limit is acceptable, of course, depends on
>the person).  At smaller sizes it means there is room to crop. 
>
>I never would have thought that a print at 108 dpi could look even
>half decent, but it is possible if the image holds together.  A lot,
>of course has to do with the lens, and the Pro-1 has an incredibly
>sharp "L" class lens.  With no film grain to enlarge, it becomes
>purely a matter of pixel management. 
>
>Here are the dpi numbers for the different sizes. 
>Image size: 3264 x 2448 
>This is a .75 ratio (6x8), typical of many digicams.
>
>Print Size     dpi
>--------------------
>4.5 x 6        544
>6 x 8          408
>7.5 x 10       327
>10.5 x 14      233
>15 x 20        163
>18 x 24        136
>22.5 x 30      108
>
>
>An 8mp DSLR image will have different numbers than this because of its
>35mm-like dimensions (.67 ratio), but this should give some idea of
>what to expect.
>
>
>Regards,
>Clayton

Re: Would like to GO BIG - Start with large format neg?

2004-08-20 by Andre

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
> 
> >What I'd consider instead is 
> >trying to go up to 24 x 30 on the 7600 at 240 or 180 ppi and waiting 
> >for Canon to replace the 6.3 MP 10D with an 8.2 MP 10D+ or
> something. 

Canon's new 8mp 20D digital camera has an APS-C size photo sensor
again. So that means the pixel/photo site size is reduced compared to
the 10D (6.4 microns vs. 7.4 microns). So what's improved is noise
reduction to compensate when shooting in dim lighting condition.

I'd be very surprised if it will allow much larger enlargment than the
10D. Only actual shooting will prove or disprove.


> I agree.  I'm currently using the Canon 8mp Pro-1 and am impressed
> with the quality at large sizes.  I temporarily enlarged a portrait to
> several sizes in PS and printed out a section (part of the face with
> eyeglass frame and hair) just to see what the limits were.  
> 
Well lit portraits do indeed permit larger printed size. It's in the
field where the light is not always perfect that digital start showing
 its limits (noise in the shadows, blown highlights, blooming and
color fringing).

The 20D looks like it will be a real improvement over the 10D but may
not permit the hoped for enlargment sizes. In surface area, the 20D
photo sensor is still only 63% that of the other 8mp dslr camera
(Canon EOS-1D Mark II).  (19.1x27.7 vs 15x22.5)

But Photokina being about a month away, we may still see something
interesting. Anyway, it's getting more and more interesting.

Re: Would like to GO BIG - Start with large format neg?

2004-08-20 by Scott Graham

You all need to keep in mind that the image size improvement for an increase in pixels is 
the square root of the megapix improvement.  Just for example, if you go from a 6MP 
camera to a 12MP camera, the megapix improvement is a factor of 2 and the square root 
of 2 is 1.4.  Hence if you can do a great 8x10 with 6 MP, you can do a great 11.2x 14 with 
12MP, or of course a good 16x20 would go to 22.4x28.  This is a nice change.

But going from 6MP to 8MP is a dribble not worth spending the money on unless you have 
a desparate need, or it has some other improvement.

And keep in mind that 8MP is about 2300x3460 and well scanned 35mm is 4000x6000 to 
say nothing of medium format.  So in spite of the wonders of digital, which I use for some 
things, and the big prints that various users are happy with,  film has dramatically more 
resolution.

Of course others will argue and I know that, so let's not fill up the group with endless digi 
vs film.  They both have their uses.

And for "big prints", it depends on how far you view them from.  How does it look from 
"where they'll see it", as opposed to with a loupe?

Scott


 --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andre" <am1000@v...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
> <cj@c...> wrote:
> > 
> > >What I'd consider instead is 
> > >trying to go up to 24 x 30 on the 7600 at 240 or 180 ppi and waiting 
> > >for Canon to replace the 6.3 MP 10D with an 8.2 MP 10D+ or
> > something. 
> 
> Canon's new 8mp 20D digital camera has an APS-C size photo sensor
> again. So that means the pixel/photo site size is reduced compared to

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Would like to GO BIG - Start with large format neg?

2004-08-20 by Steve Kale

A crucial factor to consider in this discussion though is the quality of the
pixel set.  One factor in favour of digital is their (on good cameras) very
clean image which makes scaling via interpolation that much more practical.
There are many factors for and against each side but a straight (unscaled)
pixel count is (very) disingenuous to digital.


> From: Scott Graham <gebilwil@...>

<snip> 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> And keep in mind that 8MP is about 2300x3460 and well scanned 35mm is
> 4000x6000 to 
> say nothing of medium format.  So in spite of the wonders of digital, which I
> use for some 
> things, and the big prints that various users are happy with,  film has
> dramatically more
> resolution.

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