Digital BW, The Print

Dear All;

I have been trying for about a year to get acceptable results making black
and white prints using Epson printers and easily available paper.

At first I bought and tried Jon Cones Piezography system, but found that
there were two problems that I could not get around:

1) the inks continually clogged the print heads terribly. there are all
kinds of fixes for this, revolving around soaking the pads with Fantastik,
and doing all kinds of other stuff, but it's an incredible waste of time and
money.


2) Even more significantly, the Cone Inks do not work well with anything
besides a really flat paper.
I've found that the ink does not take to Epson's premium luster, a paper
that most closely emulates Ilford Pearl surface paper, a paper I've used and
loved for 20 years.

I had bought an 1160 printer, and dedicated it to black and white, but since
the Cone system has pretty much flamed out, I have been printing off an
Epson 1270 using color inks to make black and white prints, and the results
are OK, but not great..the blacks are really purple-y, and overall the tone
is cold. Even with various adjustments to the Epson Drivers, I have not come
up with a 
tone that is consistently good ie, either too cold or too green...
I have been trying to tweak these color adjustments, but with no great luck,
tho I still trying other settings and hoping for the best...

I have been in touch with MIS, and they tell me that their inks do not work
well with
either luster, semi-gloss or glossy papers.

So, the Epson printer,inks and papers work very well as an integrated
system, 
but the tones are not quite right, or at least I have not been able to hit
the
proper settings/profiles...

Look forward to hearing from anyone with similar experiences, especially if
you've
worked your way through this...

Best;
Stu Rosner
sturos@...
sturos@... 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stu,

Can I encourage you to try Piezo again? I know it is frustrating when it
doesn't work for you... but as Julian suggests, it sounds like a replacement
printer is in order.

You are right that there are numerous hints and fixes for printing with
these inks - it _might_ not be perfect :) You will see in time that some of
these hints are incredibly easy (like - ensure your carts are stored the
right way up, so the ink is in the right place when you want to use them!)
Sure, these are things that you don't have to do with Epson OEM... and yet
if you print alot with OEM, or with fine-art papers, or use any other third
party system... you will find these ideas coming up again and again. e.g.
Other third party ink suppliers recommend carts are stored upright... even
Epson realised they have got to do 'something special' with even their
pigmented inks in their own printers that were designed for pigmented
inks!!! I'm sure that in the early days, there were bum printing presses
too... and people who thought the monks did a better job! (Well, OK, they
did... but you know what I mean!). So, in general, it is frustrating both as
a user and reseller for Piezo when problems with Epson (tho' I believe they
are basically great printers) are leveled as being problems with
Piezography. e.g. If you've cut matts 16*20, and then print an image that
looks great, but it's 15.5*19 when you needed it 15.5*19.5, what use is
that? If your capping station doesn't work properly, even Epson inks will
dry out... etc.

On the issue of paper, I think that papers like Orwell, Wells River et al
print really nicely! And now Photo Rag - excellent (and smooth). In fact,
the 1160 is one of the best of Epson's printers for feeding art papers...

The fact is, that we are trying to do stuff now that used to be done worse
by Iris printers et al, without the up-front printer cost of god-knows how
much, and I'm sure Iris _probably_ offer an operator course costing more
than your whole Piezo setup! Still, I am told they _do_ come with a built in
vacuum cleaner for all that paper-dust, which is nice ;)

I recommend taking a day off from the computer, then returning with renewed
vigour and resolution to test the printer... return if necessary... and
then... go make art ;)

Good luck... I really do believe the effort is worth it!

Nij

Nigel Rheam
MWORDS Limited   www.mwords.co.uk   Digital Fine Art





> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stu Rosner [mailto:sturos@...]
> Sent: 26 October 2001 13:51
> To: yahoo digital bw
> Subject: [Digital BW] BW printing problems/ Anyone overcome these??
>
>
> Dear All;
>
> I have been trying for about a year to get acceptable results making black
> and white prints using Epson printers and easily available paper.
>
> At first I bought and tried Jon Cones Piezography system, but found that
> there were two problems that I could not get around:
>
> 1) the inks continually clogged the print heads terribly. there are all
> kinds of fixes for this, revolving around soaking the pads with Fantastik,
> and doing all kinds of other stuff, but it's an incredible waste
> of time and
> money.
>
>
> 2) Even more significantly, the Cone Inks do not work well with anything
> besides a really flat paper.
> I've found that the ink does not take to Epson's premium luster, a paper
> that most closely emulates Ilford Pearl surface paper, a paper
> I've used and
> loved for 20 years.
>
<snip>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Stu Rosner <sturos@m...> 
wrote:
> Dear All;
> 
> I have been trying for about a year to get acceptable results...

Neutral prints? Photography paper surfaces? Small dot printer...
Spectratones
Spectratones
Spectratones
Spectratones

I don't understand why this alternative doesn't get the attention it 
deserves.
Tyl

> Spectratones
> 
> I don't understand why this alternative doesn't get the attention it 
> deserves.
> Tyl

so tell......please.

Ben.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., b_wwuk@y... wrote:
> 
> > Spectratones
> 
> so tell......please.
> 
> Ben.

Why make me do all the work? Do an archive search, plenty here. Website here-
http://www.lincolninks.com/
Tyler

> Neutral prints? Photography paper surfaces? Small dot printer...
> Spectratones
> Spectratones
> Spectratones
> Spectratones
> 
> I don't understand why this alternative doesn't get the attention it
> deserves.
> Tyl

I wasn't crazy about the samples they provided me. The product certainly
showed potential, like deep blacks and a uniform neutral color, but the
prints on glossy paper showed a lot of microbanding, and some bronzing of
the deepest blacks, and the print on the water color paper was just not my
cup of tea at all (read washed-out).

However, I trust with care good results may be had with these inks. Has
anyone actually seen or made "top notch" "final" "art" prints made with
these inks? If so I'd like to see these inks get some play. Who's using
them, and what's your workflow?

Todd

I have seen a couple of nice prints from Spectratones on glossy media - I
would say that the colour is neutral until you get the 'wrong' light and
then you do see a magenta cast to them. But it wasn't a massive deal...

But I'm not sure my experience counts as they were apparently printed using
the Piezo driver, in which I have a  'commercial interest' ;) They were
dot-free prints though :)

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Flashner [mailto:tflash@...]
> Sent: 26 October 2001 18:33
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: BW printing problems/ Anyone overcome
> these??
>
>
>
> > Neutral prints? Photography paper surfaces? Small dot printer...
> > Spectratones
> > Spectratones
> > Spectratones
> > Spectratones
> >
> > I don't understand why this alternative doesn't get the attention it
> > deserves.
> > Tyl
>
> I wasn't crazy about the samples they provided me. The product certainly
> showed potential, like deep blacks and a uniform neutral color, but the
> prints on glossy paper showed a lot of microbanding, and some bronzing of
> the deepest blacks, and the print on the water color paper was just not my
> cup of tea at all (read washed-out).
>
> However, I trust with care good results may be had with these inks. Has
> anyone actually seen or made "top notch" "final" "art" prints made with
> these inks? If so I'd like to see these inks get some play. Who's using
> them, and what's your workflow?
>
> Todd
>

Tyler,

It may have something to do with the fact that Lincoln DOES NOT 
recommend Spectratones with the 1160 and newer printers, just the 
3000 and 1200 for the desktop. Check the Lincoln site and read why.

Terry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Stu Rosner <sturos@m...> 
> wrote:
> > Dear All;
> > 
> > I have been trying for about a year to get acceptable results...
> 
> Neutral prints? Photography paper surfaces? Small dot printer...
> Spectratones
> Spectratones
> Spectratones
> Spectratones
> 
> I don't understand why this alternative doesn't get the attention 
it 
> deserves.
> Tyl

Stu,

If you are interested in a pearl finish paper I recommend the Kodak 
Ultima Satin for us with the pigment ink sets. It will need a 
fixative spray. 

You also might consider the MIS Full Spectrum inks to use with the 
Piezo software. The inks are a very close match to Piezo and the MIS 
inks seem to have far less clogging problems than the Piezo inks.

If you want the glossy paper, a dye based ink would be the better way 
to go.

Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Stu Rosner <sturos@m...> 
wrote:
> Dear All;
> 
> I have been trying for about a year to get acceptable results 
making black
> and white prints using Epson printers and easily available paper.
> 
> At first I bought and tried Jon Cones Piezography system, but found 
that
> there were two problems that I could not get around:
> 
> 1) the inks continually clogged the print heads terribly. there are 
all
> kinds of fixes for this, revolving around soaking the pads with 
Fantastik,
> and doing all kinds of other stuff, but it's an incredible waste of 
time and
> money.
> 
> 
> 2) Even more significantly, the Cone Inks do not work well with 
anything
> besides a really flat paper.
> I've found that the ink does not take to Epson's premium luster, a 
paper
> that most closely emulates Ilford Pearl surface paper, a paper I've 
used and
> loved for 20 years.
> 
> I had bought an 1160 printer, and dedicated it to black and white, 
but since
> the Cone system has pretty much flamed out, I have been printing 
off an
> Epson 1270 using color inks to make black and white prints, and the 
results
> are OK, but not great..the blacks are really purple-y, and overall 
the tone
> is cold. Even with various adjustments to the Epson Drivers, I have 
not come
> up with a 
> tone that is consistently good ie, either too cold or too green...
> I have been trying to tweak these color adjustments, but with no 
great luck,
> tho I still trying other settings and hoping for the best...
> 
> I have been in touch with MIS, and they tell me that their inks do 
not work
> well with
> either luster, semi-gloss or glossy papers.
> 
> So, the Epson printer,inks and papers work very well as an 
integrated
> system, 
> but the tones are not quite right, or at least I have not been able 
to hit
> the
> proper settings/profiles...
> 
> Look forward to hearing from anyone with similar experiences, 
especially if

> you've
> worked your way through this...
> 
> Best;
> Stu Rosner
> sturos@c...
> sturos@m... 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "TerryR" <terryr1028@h...> 
wrote:
> Tyler,
> 
> It may have something to do with the fact that Lincoln DOES NOT 
> recommend Spectratones with the 1160 and newer printers, just the 
> 3000 and 1200 for the desktop. Check the Lincoln site and read why.
> 

No mention of newer printers. Here's what it actually says-
>Some 1160s have proven to be problematic with banding while others 
>print fine so I advise avoiding the xx60 group of printers