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Re: coating

Re: coating

2004-08-10 by Nick Nugent

Hello Steve,

I'm copying my response to
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com just in case someone else
may find this beneficial.

Before sharing with you my latest technique which is unbelievably
simple and yet so far has yield 100% perfect result I'd like to talk a
bit about the reason why I feel I must coat all papers that are prone
to flaking. Note that this method may not work on glossy paper due the
fact that the brayer which I use will introduce textures into a
surface which is supposed to be smooth.

Despite the fact that I'm very concientious about flake removal prior
to printing, some flaking will inevitably occur after printing as some
other folks in the forum had observed. Maybe somewhere between the
place where you let your print dry to the print framing table, or
worse yet at your customer's home where the print is unfurled.

I did a little test in which I printed a large block of gray on the
Hawk Mountain Merlin which I had prepared the surface using the
rolling technique, tapping on the back of the paper, brushing the
surface, sprayed a fine mist of plain water using an airbrush, let it
dry and roll, brush, tap again. Then printed the large gray block. Let
it dry. And lo and behold I found tiny white flakes again after I
flexed the print a couple times. The only difference is that these are
very very small flakes as compared to those I got without surface
preparation. The large block of gray reveals the flakes better than a
regular image.

Now about my coating technique:

1. a Speedball (TM) foam brayer which I bought at a local Ultrecht Art
Supply store. It's best to wash this brayer in plain water to remove
any foam particles left by the manufacturing process.

2. Liquitex acrylic gloss medium and varnish. I haven't worked out an
exact lidution percentage but probably somewhere between 10-15%
distilled water added to the medium. If applied full strengh without
dilution you'll get a pretty interesting surface texture, however if
diluted as suggested the paper's own texture will be more prominent
which is probably more preferable.

Pour a small amount of diluted medium on a flat tupperware container
and work the brayer as you would a house paint roller. Then freely
roll the brayer back and forth over the print. I tend to roll in one
direction and then another until the whole print is evenly covered.
For those that have played with coating rods you'd find that this
yields a much more predictable and smooth result. Remove the print
from the baseboard and let it dry for about ... 5 minutes then apply a
second coat, or don't do the second coat yet but perform 3) instead.
  
3. Liquitex acrylic matte medium. Mix a small amount of this liquid to
the dilution in 2) and store in a separate bottle. This final coat is
to reduce the glossiness resulting from 2) above. Apply this coat
using the same brayer technique.

At this point I've almost decided that I don't need 3) at all. The
sheen after two coats of 2) is very pleasing and I think if I dilute
2) even further I may get even less sheen. Or dilute 2) a little less
and apply just one coat. It's unbelievable that even after one coat I
got smoother result then before when I was using either an airbrush or
the coating rod. And this brayer method is also very forgiving. So far
I have yet to get a reject.

Cleaning up after the coating process is also very simple because the
coating liquid is water based. I hope you find this information
useful.

--nick




--- Susspeople@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Nick
> I have been away from the group for a while. I started using rods
> and 
> Hydrocoat over a year ago, but became quickly frustrated as probably
> only 1 in 10 
> came our perfectly without streaks. What are you using now. A paint
> bruch and 
> then an air gun??? What medium do you use? 
> Thanks, STEVE
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: coating

2004-08-10 by Carl Schofield

Nick,

Do you have any problems with bubbles and foaming when applying the 
diluted Liquitex Gloss Medium and Varnish coating with the foam brayer? 
  I tried using a closed cell foam paint roller with the Liquitex Gloss 
Varnish (not the one with medium) last year and had problems with 
bubbles forming in the coating when rolling.

Carl Schofield
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Monday, August 9, 2004, at 08:06  PM, Nick Nugent wrote:

> Hello Steve,
>
> I'm copying my response to
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com just in case someone else
> may find this beneficial.
>
> Before sharing with you my latest technique which is unbelievably
> simple and yet so far has yield 100% perfect result I'd like to talk a
> bit about the reason why I feel I must coat all papers that are prone
> to flaking. Note that this method may not work on glossy paper due the
> fact that the brayer which I use will introduce textures into a
> surface which is supposed to be smooth.
>
> Despite the fact that I'm very concientious about flake removal prior
> to printing, some flaking will inevitably occur after printing as some
> other folks in the forum had observed. Maybe somewhere between the
> place where you let your print dry to the print framing table, or
> worse yet at your customer's home where the print is unfurled.
>
> I did a little test in which I printed a large block of gray on the
> Hawk Mountain Merlin which I had prepared the surface using the
> rolling technique, tapping on the back of the paper, brushing the
> surface, sprayed a fine mist of plain water using an airbrush, let it
> dry and roll, brush, tap again. Then printed the large gray block. Let
> it dry. And lo and behold I found tiny white flakes again after I
> flexed the print a couple times. The only difference is that these are
> very very small flakes as compared to those I got without surface
> preparation. The large block of gray reveals the flakes better than a
> regular image.
>
> Now about my coating technique:
>
> 1. a Speedball (TM) foam brayer which I bought at a local Ultrecht Art
> Supply store. It's best to wash this brayer in plain water to remove
> any foam particles left by the manufacturing process.
>
> 2. Liquitex acrylic gloss medium and varnish. I haven't worked out an
> exact lidution percentage but probably somewhere between 10-15%
> distilled water added to the medium. If applied full strengh without
> dilution you'll get a pretty interesting surface texture, however if
> diluted as suggested the paper's own texture will be more prominent
> which is probably more preferable.
>
> Pour a small amount of diluted medium on a flat tupperware container
> and work the brayer as you would a house paint roller. Then freely
> roll the brayer back and forth over the print. I tend to roll in one
> direction and then another until the whole print is evenly covered.
> For those that have played with coating rods you'd find that this
> yields a much more predictable and smooth result. Remove the print
> from the baseboard and let it dry for about ... 5 minutes then apply a
> second coat, or don't do the second coat yet but perform 3) instead.
>
> 3. Liquitex acrylic matte medium. Mix a small amount of this liquid to
> the dilution in 2) and store in a separate bottle. This final coat is
> to reduce the glossiness resulting from 2) above. Apply this coat
> using the same brayer technique.
>
> At this point I've almost decided that I don't need 3) at all. The
> sheen after two coats of 2) is very pleasing and I think if I dilute
> 2) even further I may get even less sheen. Or dilute 2) a little less
> and apply just one coat. It's unbelievable that even after one coat I
> got smoother result then before when I was using either an airbrush or
> the coating rod. And this brayer method is also very forgiving. So far
> I have yet to get a reject.
>
> Cleaning up after the coating process is also very simple because the
> coating liquid is water based. I hope you find this information
> useful.
>
> --nick
>
>
>
>
> --- Susspeople@... wrote:
>
>> Nick
>> I have been away from the group for a while. I started using rods
>> and
>> Hydrocoat over a year ago, but became quickly frustrated as probably
>> only 1 in 10
>> came our perfectly without streaks. What are you using now. A paint
>> bruch and
>> then an air gun??? What medium do you use?
>> Thanks, STEVE
>>
>
>
>
>
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[Digital BW] Re: coating

2004-08-10 by Nghi H. Nguyen

Hi Carl,

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@m...> wrote:
> Do you have any problems with bubbles and foaming when applying the 
> diluted Liquitex Gloss Medium and Varnish coating with the foam 
> brayer? I tried using a closed cell foam paint roller with the 
> Liquitex Gloss Varnish (not the one with medium) last year and had 
> problems with bubbles forming in the coating when rolling.

Before answering your question I'd like to say that I probably forgot
to mention in my last posting that my technique does not work with dye
ink because the water-based acrylic medium probably will dissolve it.

Now the problem with foam. What type of gloss varnish is that you're
using? Is it water based or solvent based? In my earlier test when I
used the gloss medium full strength I found as I ran the brayer over
and over again all the bubbles disappeared. Work the liquid into the
brayer then roll it hard on the tray to squeeze out excess liquid.

After you run the brayer over the print surface a few times you'd find
the foam disappears. The nice thing about the 10-15% diluted
water-based liquitex is that even if you can spot tiny bubbles on the
surface they will all disappear once the print dries. This is due to
the shrinking nature of the polymer. It works like the swellable
polymer on some inkjet papers, only that this polymer once dried is
much tougher and is water proof.

You might have not only used your varnish full strength, but probably
too much of it, too. Please retest using your current varnish and try
to reduce the amount, I believe if you dilute yours a little and
spread if really thin you'd find the bubbles will be gone. Experiment
with running the brayer over the print many times.

But if your varnish is solvent based ... I don't think it will work
with your inkjet matte paper because the solvent will seep like crazy
into the substrate and make it translucent.

For certain special prints which I keep for myself I coat with a layer
of Dorland Wax Medium to provide additional protection.

--nick

Re: coating

2004-08-11 by Antonis

Carl, Nick...

It's worth considering good brushes and rollers for coating.
Some of my research  have led to  Purdy products such as:

http://www.purdycorp.com/catalog/brushes/display/422/professional

http://www.purdycorp.com/catalog/covers/display/1/null

I haven't tried these yet and there are other brands that offer 
DuPont SRT filaments that may be less expensive than Purdy. 
If anyone is playing with coatings, these may be worth a try.

Also - rollers with the shortest nap would be the ideal (like the 
Purdy White Dove). 


Antonis





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Nick,
> 
> Do you have any problems with bubbles and foaming when applying the 
> diluted Liquitex Gloss Medium and Varnish coating with the foam brayer? 
>   I tried using a closed cell foam paint roller with the Liquitex Gloss 
> Varnish (not the one with medium) last year and had problems with 
> bubbles forming in the coating when rolling.
> 
> Carl Schofield

Re: [Digital BW] Re: coating

2004-08-11 by Carl Schofield

Nick,

The varnish I used is "Liquitex Gloss Varnish", which is a water based 
acrylic for flexible surfaces.  I had some left from my experiments 
last year so I tried it again using your procedure (15% dist. water 
added for dilution, two thin coats).  The dilution seemed to take care 
of the bubbles (after drying) but when applying it was still very foamy 
- almost like rolling on soap suds.  The print was on H Photo Rag (300 
gsm) and after treatment and drying the paper texture was accentuated 
and not smooth at all.  It looks almost like a very coarse pearl or 
pebbled finish paper when viewed at an angle to the light source and 
the reflections are somewhat distracting.  Perhaps some addition of 
matte medium to reduce the sheen would help.  A pad applicator or brush 
as Antonis suggested might also reduce the foaming problem.  I've tried 
the rod application procedure before with hydrocote and although this 
does give a very smooth finish I found it very difficult to get 
consistent results.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 01:29  PM, Nghi H. Nguyen wrote:

> Hi Carl,
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@m...> wrote:
>> Do you have any problems with bubbles and foaming when applying the
>> diluted Liquitex Gloss Medium and Varnish coating with the foam
>> brayer? I tried using a closed cell foam paint roller with the
>> Liquitex Gloss Varnish (not the one with medium) last year and had
>> problems with bubbles forming in the coating when rolling.
>
> Before answering your question I'd like to say that I probably forgot
> to mention in my last posting that my technique does not work with dye
> ink because the water-based acrylic medium probably will dissolve it.
>
> Now the problem with foam. What type of gloss varnish is that you're
> using? Is it water based or solvent based? In my earlier test when I
> used the gloss medium full strength I found as I ran the brayer over
> and over again all the bubbles disappeared. Work the liquid into the
> brayer then roll it hard on the tray to squeeze out excess liquid.
>
> After you run the brayer over the print surface a few times you'd find
> the foam disappears. The nice thing about the 10-15% diluted
> water-based liquitex is that even if you can spot tiny bubbles on the
> surface they will all disappear once the print dries. This is due to
> the shrinking nature of the polymer. It works like the swellable
> polymer on some inkjet papers, only that this polymer once dried is
> much tougher and is water proof.
>
> You might have not only used your varnish full strength, but probably
> too much of it, too. Please retest using your current varnish and try
> to reduce the amount, I believe if you dilute yours a little and
> spread if really thin you'd find the bubbles will be gone. Experiment
> with running the brayer over the print many times.
>
> But if your varnish is solvent based ... I don't think it will work
> with your inkjet matte paper because the solvent will seep like crazy
> into the substrate and make it translucent.
>
> For certain special prints which I keep for myself I coat with a layer
> of Dorland Wax Medium to provide additional protection.
>
> --nick
>

Re: coating

2004-08-11 by Antonis

Carl,

there is a thread on coatings also going on in the Wide Format
list. You may find some of it useful. Here is one of the posts:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/message/48060



Antonis



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Nick,
> 
> The varnish I used is "Liquitex Gloss Varnish", which is a water based 
> acrylic for flexible surfaces.

Re: coating

2004-08-11 by Nick Nugent

Antonis, Carl,

Thanks Antonis for the applicator suggestions. Actually I'm now
starting to use a brush for the second coat. Using a brush in the
first coat may damage the fragile print surface.

> The varnish I used is "Liquitex Gloss Varnish", which is a water 
> based acrylic for flexible surfaces. I had some left from my 
> experiments last year so I tried it again using your procedure (15% 
> dist. water added for dilution, two thin coats).  The dilution
seemed
> to take care of the bubbles (after drying) but when applying it was 
> still very foamy - almost like rolling on soap suds.

Yes, this I also found to be true. I have done this enough time now to
know for certain that the foam will finally disappear.

> The print was on H Photo Rag (300 gsm) and after treatment and
drying
>  the paper texture was accentuated and not smooth at all.  It looks 
> almost like a very coarse pearl or pebbled finish paper when viewed 
> at an angle to the light source and the reflections are somewhat 
> distracting.  Perhaps some addition of matte medium to reduce the 
> sheen would help.  A pad applicator or brush as Antonis suggested 
> might also reduce the foaming problem.

I did also think of using a pad applicator which I have used for some
house painting. You'd still get the foam using a brush but as we have
seen the foam will disappear once the print is dry - within 15
minutes.   I have in front of me now two prints with one having a
second matte coat and sure enough the surface texture is much more
pleasing.

At this point my thinking is the first glossy coat using a roller
followed by a second matte coat (glossy medium + 15% matte medium)
applied by brush. I may increase the amount of matte medium in the
second coat for further reduction of sheen.

This may turn out to be the easiest way to coat a (matte) print.

> I've tried the rod application procedure before with hydrocote and 
> although this does give a very smooth finish I found it very 
> difficult to get consistent results.

I was toying with the idea of making a wooden apparatus to help with
the rod application but never followed through with it.

--nick

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