Digital BW, The Print

There is a similar article in the Times of London indicating that 
Ilford had been put into "administration" and indicating that they 
were focusing on digital products.  Assuming that there is a risk of 
Ilford getting out of the B&W film business raises a question: how 
long will film last in a freezer?  Given that Kodak has cancelled 
production of Portra B&W (and the limitations of its replacement), I 
would like to put in a stock of Super XP2, but limit quantities to 
that which I will actually use before it degrades.

I would hate to give up B&W film, but I suspect that shooting color 
print film and coverting in PS will be an alternative that is around 
for a while.  On the other hand, I would never have guessed that B&W 
would start to fade from view this quickly.  Lets hope that someone 
sees a niche market and continues to produce at least some of 
Ilford's range of B&W products.  

Steve

--- Stephen Kobrin <kobrins@...> wrote:

 how long will film last in a freezer?  

Stephen,
I have frozen film. both black and white and color,
for over ten years and could not discern any
deterioration or ill effects from the freezing.  Since
the color film still performed without any discernable
difference, I would assume the B@W would withstand
freezing even longer than ten years.  IMHO.
Joe

=====
Drop by my site at <davajon.net>

> Assuming that there is a risk of 
> Ilford getting out of the B&W film business raises a
> question: how long will film last in a freezer?  

Black and white film will last indefinately in cold
storage.  However, automatic frost-free freezers will
lessen the life span as opposed to a straight cold
freezer.  I have a huge amount of pan-x (expired in
'82) that still gives great results.  What you may
experience is minimal fogging every decade, but much
less than you would expect.  As it is black and white,
fogging really doesn't matter.  Michael Smith and
Paula Chamlee do this with film pulled by Kodak in the
early 90's. 

Don


	
		
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Thanks Joe and Don,

Sounds like a solution.  

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "D. Hill" 
<hill14701@y...> wrote:

> 
> > Assuming that there is a risk of 
> > Ilford getting out of the B&W film business raises a
> > question: how long will film last in a freezer?  
> 
> Black and white film will last indefinately in cold
> storage.  However, automatic frost-free freezers will
> lessen the life span as opposed to a straight cold
> freezer.  I have a huge amount of pan-x (expired in
> '82) that still gives great results.  What you may
> experience is minimal fogging every decade, but much
> less than you would expect.  As it is black and white,
> fogging really doesn't matter.  Michael Smith and
> Paula Chamlee do this with film pulled by Kodak in the
> early 90's. 
> 
> Don
> 
> 
> 	
> 		
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
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Hi Steve,

> I would never have guessed that B&W would start to fade from view this
quickly

You said it! I'm shocked at the pace of change, plus I would have expected the
B&W materials to be the *last* to go by the wall, because digital capture is
further away from replacing B&W film compared to colour. I would have thought
the majority of B&W shooters would be exactly the kind of niche/specialist
users who'd be more likely to keep buying film. In fact I wonder if the film
side of the business isn't relatively healthy, with the printing
paper/chemicals being the real casualty. It will be a shame if they prune away
more of the business than they really need to.

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Kobrin [mailto:kobrins@...]
Sent: 24 August 2004 13:25
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Ilford


There is a similar article in the Times of London indicating that 
Ilford had been put into "administration" and indicating that they 
were focusing on digital products.  Assuming that there is a risk of 
Ilford getting out of the B&W film business raises a question: how 
long will film last in a freezer?  Given that Kodak has cancelled 
production of Portra B&W (and the limitations of its replacement), I 
would like to put in a stock of Super XP2, but limit quantities to 
that which I will actually use before it degrades.

I would hate to give up B&W film, but I suspect that shooting color 
print film and coverting in PS will be an alternative that is around 
for a while.  On the other hand, I would never have guessed that B&W 
would start to fade from view this quickly.  Lets hope that someone 
sees a niche market and continues to produce at least some of 
Ilford's range of B&W products.  

Steve

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I get updates from Kodak almost weekly on discontinuance of black and  
white films and papers. It is a little scary. Just last week, no more  
Tech Pan film.

Mark

On Aug 24, 2004, at 11:01 AM, Nunan, Mike wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
>  > I would never have guessed that B&W would start to fade from view  
> this
>  quickly
>
>  You said it! I'm shocked at the pace of change, plus I would have  
> expected the
>  B&W materials to be the *last* to go by the wall, because digital  
> capture is
>  further away from replacing B&W film compared to colour. I would have  
> thought
>  the majority of B&W shooters would be exactly the kind of  
> niche/specialist
>  users who'd be more likely to keep buying film. In fact I wonder if  
> the film
>  side of the business isn't relatively healthy, with the printing
>  paper/chemicals being the real casualty. It will be a shame if they  
> prune away
>  more of the business than they really need to.
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Stephen Kobrin [mailto:kobrins@...]
>  Sent: 24 August 2004 13:25
>  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>  Subject: [Digital BW] Ilford
>
>
>  There is a similar article in the Times of London indicating that
>  Ilford had been put into "administration" and indicating that they
>  were focusing on digital products.� Assuming that there is a risk of
>  Ilford getting out of the B&W film business raises a question: how
>  long will film last in a freezer?� Given that Kodak has cancelled
>  production of Portra B&W (and the limitations of its replacement), I
>  would like to put in a stock of Super XP2, but limit quantities to
>  that which I will actually use before it degrades.
>
>  I would hate to give up B&W film, but I suspect that shooting color
>  print film and coverting in PS will be an alternative that is around
>  for a while.� On the other hand, I would never have guessed that B&W
>  would start to fade from view this quickly.� Lets hope that someone
>  sees a niche market and continues to produce at least some of
>  Ilford's range of B&W products.�
>
>  Steve
>
>   
> ======================================================================= 
> =======
>  This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you  
> received
>  this message in error please delete it and notify us. If this message  
> was
>  misdirected, CSFB does not waive any confidentiality or privilege.  
> CSFB
>  retains and monitors electronic communications sent through its  
> network.
>  Instructions transmitted over this system are not binding on CSFB  
> until they
>  are confirmed by us. Message transmission is not guaranteed to be  
> secure.
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> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
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> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
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> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD  
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There's bound to be consolidation in the b&w film business in the near
future. The market can't support much longer as many players with the
many film choices we have at the present.

I would not discount Fuji yet or even the small europeans film
manufacturers. And we may end up having to buy b&w films and chemicals
over the internet.

Yes Fuji has some excellent black and white films. Neopan 400 and Acros 
100. According to our tech rep they have no plans to discontinue 
either, they only came out with Acros a little over a year ago, so the 
research continues.
Mark


On Aug 24, 2004, at 1:22 PM, Andre wrote:

> There's bound to be consolidation in the b&w film business in the near
>  future. The market can't support much longer as many players with the
>  many film choices we have at the present.
>
>  I would not discount Fuji yet or even the small europeans film
>  manufacturers. And we may end up having to buy b&w films and chemicals
>  over the internet.
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I heard on the BBC world service a week ago that Agfa is selling its film and photo paper business, too.

Worrying times.

Richard
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com

   "I have come to believe that the whole world is an 
   enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by 
   our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
   an underlying truth." 
   --Umberto Eco

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen 
Kobrin" <kobrins@w...> wrote:
> how 
> long will film last in a freezer? 

IIRC, "Shutterbug" had an article on this many years ago, and they 
said that a refridgerator or freezer is essentially "forever."  It 
will fog, due to gamma radiation, which isn't stopped by the metal 
shielding of your fridge.

I've had exposed Kodachrome in the fridge (not freezer) for 10 years 
without any problem.  I figured if there was a problem, it would be 
with latent images.  I've had no problem at all.

I miss PKM!  (Pro version of Kodachrome 25)

I used to be a big fan of Kodak T-Max 100 developed in Agfa Rodinal 
100:1.  Grain was so fine, I couldn't focus using a grain 
magnifier.  If there was anything that could compete, it was Tech 
Pan in Pyro.  I saw a 35mm negative blown up to 36x42", and could 
not see grain in the print.  Should have sold the MF gear right then 
and there, but I was a MF Snob.  And now I'm finding happiness with 
a mere 2.1 Mpixel digicam????

Thanks for the trip down memory lane,

Anne

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen 
Kobrin" <kobrins@w...> wrote:
> 
> I would hate to give up B&W film, but I suspect that shooting 
color 
> print film and coverting in PS will be an alternative that is 
around 
> for a while.  On the other hand, I would never have guessed that 
B&W 
> would start to fade from view this quickly.  Lets hope that 
someone 
> sees a niche market and continues to produce at least some of 
> Ilford's range of B&W products.  
> 
> Steve

I've been an Ilford B&W user all my life, and I too will not be 
happy to see them go. However, worrying about giving up B&W film 
completely is a bit premature IMHO. As the big fish get out I think 
we'll see smaller companies film the void, like Efke, for example. 
The Efke films are being made again in Croatia, using the classic 
and highly respected Addox formulas. They aren't just available, 
they are being imported in sizes we haven't seen in many years. Have 
a 3x4 Speed Graphic you've wanted to use? 126? 127? 2/14 x 3/14 
sheet film? Big stuff like 12x banquet film? You name it, they're 
making it. If you're curious & want to try some, J&C Photo imports 
it along with some other interesting odds&ends: 

http://www.jandcphotography.com/

Steve Karafyllakis

Disclaimer: No, I don't have anything to do with J&C Photo!

Informations from the Ilford French Marketing Manager :
Doughty-Hanson (english fund who is the main shares holder of Ilford in England) plan to restructure the Mobberley plant. Heavy cuts will be done in the products line. Delta 100/400/3200 will be still produced in 35mm and 120 but not for sheet film. PanF, PlusX and SFX200 will be discontinued. 
In grade paper, Ilfobrom Galerie will be discontinued, Ilfospeed should carry on but with less grades.
For Multigrade, Cooltone and Portofolio will stop, the other products like Multigrade IV, FB, Warmtone FB should be still produced.

This what it should be, see what happen.

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Andre 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 4:26 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ilford


  Thanks for the input Mark.

  So, digital products like inkjet papers will continue to be available
  from Ilford.

  But you also say that, "Powder chemicals and graded b&w papers will
  fizzle out." Does that include film developping chemicals or only
  paper related chemicals ?

  Andre Moreau




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

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  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
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  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

TJere was an article in the Financial Times this morning that quoted 
a Kodak executive as saying that film sales had fallen off twice as 
fast as they had forcast in the last year, something like 15% versus 
an expected 7%.  Most of the article was about Kodak getting out of 
traditional photography and into digital imaging in one form or 
another although there were no specifics.

Steve



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sinwen" 
<sinwen@f...> wrote:
> 

Informations from the Ilford French Marketing Manager :
> Doughty-Hanson (english fund who is the main shares holder of 
Ilford in England) plan to restructure the Mobberley plant. Heavy 
cuts will be done in the products line. Delta 100/400/3200 will be 
still produced in 35mm and 120 but not for sheet film. PanF, PlusX 
and SFX200 will be discontinued. 
> In grade paper, Ilfobrom Galerie will be discontinued, Ilfospeed 
should carry on but with less grades.
> For Multigrade, Cooltone and Portofolio will stop, the other 
products like Multigrade IV, FB, Warmtone FB should be still produced.

> 
> This what it should be, see what happen.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Andre 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 4:26 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ilford
> 
>

There is a press release here,
http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/pr/pr_gt.html and about 2/3 of the way
down, the paragraph that starts "In the past four years the Group has
successfully arrested....", sounds an awful lot like General Accountancy 101
for "we are going to slash and burn". If they cut back dramatically, and as
you say delivery is slower, that might be indicative of a "rotating batch"
type of manufacturing . . . one week we do this (when there are enough
orders), next week this. Regardless, there is very little that seems to say
they have an interest in a continually dwindling market . . . a shame
because they were the favourites of many a photographer (myself included
until there became a semi-reliable source of Agfa in Canada).

Perhaps one of the European "niche" companies will pick up their traditional
based product if they decide to drop them?

Paul Aparycki

p.s. Ciba-Geigy used to own part of Ilford (the cibachrome and colour
materials at least) and in the US it was I believe a wholly-owned subsiduary
of International Paper at one time . . . is that still the case? (if not, it
shows you how long ago I have read any lit from them).

>They just told me powered chemicals, liquid chemicals will still be
>made. Things are a little confusing right now, even the people at
>Ilford are confused. My old rep (he needs a job if anyone out there
>wants him) said they called them into a meeting and they thought is one
>going to be one of those "we need to cut back on expenses" talks but it
>turn out to be a pink slip event.
>Mark

> Subject: Re: Re: Ilford
>
> Informations from the Ilford French Marketing Manager :
> Doughty-Hanson (english fund who is the main shares holder of
> Ilford in England) plan to restructure the Mobberley plant. Heavy
> cuts will be done in the products line. Delta 100/400/3200 will
> be still produced in 35mm and 120 but not for sheet film. PanF,
> PlusX and SFX200 will be discontinued.
> In grade paper, Ilfobrom Galerie will be discontinued, Ilfospeed
> should carry on but with less grades.
> For Multigrade, Cooltone and Portofolio will stop, the other
> products like Multigrade IV, FB, Warmtone FB should be still produced.
>
> This what it should be, see what happen.

And Ilfochrome? (which is made in Switzerland isn't it?)

The above also seems to indicate FP4 and HP5 will continue to be made in
sheets?

BTW - as I understand it part of the problem is the massive overcapacity of
the mobberley plant (one reason in the last few years they were selling so
much film to third parties to be rebranded). I can't find the information
right now, but it's production lines produce millions of sq ft of film per
year.

tim

What about XP-2?
-John

--- sinwen <sinwen@...> wrote:

> Informations from the Ilford French Marketing
> Manager :
> Doughty-Hanson (english fund who is the main shares
> holder of Ilford in England) plan to restructure the
> Mobberley plant. Heavy cuts will be done in the
> products line. Delta 100/400/3200 will be still
> produced in 35mm and 120 but not for sheet film.
> PanF, PlusX and SFX200 will be discontinued. 
> In grade paper, Ilfobrom Galerie will be
> discontinued, Ilfospeed should carry on but with
> less grades.
> For Multigrade, Cooltone and Portofolio will stop,
> the other products like Multigrade IV, FB, Warmtone
> FB should be still produced.
> 
> This what it should be, see what happen.
> 
>


	
		
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French magazine Chasseur d'Images present at Photokina, reports that
the first thing they did when arriving, was to head straight for the
Ilford stand.

They report that silver b&w is still an important share of Ilford's
revenues, that all the films and paper that we now know will be
maintained. What is uncertain are the chemicals.

In the coming weeks, structurals changes will be made to the company.
Distribution channels will be re-organised and Ilford will no longer
sells directly to retail outlets. This will be handled by wholesalers.

So, things may no look too grim after all.

Andre Moreau

Andre wrote:

>French magazine Chasseur d'Images present at Photokina, reports that
>the first thing they did when arriving, was to head straight for the
>Ilford stand.
>
>They report that silver b&w is still an important share of Ilford's
>revenues, that all the films and paper that we now know will be
>maintained. What is uncertain are the chemicals.
>
>In the coming weeks, structurals changes will be made to the company.
>Distribution channels will be re-organised and Ilford will no longer
>sells directly to retail outlets. This will be handled by wholesalers.
>
>So, things may no look too grim after all.
>
>Andre Moreau
>  
>
Am I missing something? Why would a Digital B&W group need silver paper 
and chemicals?
-- 

Hans Van Rafelghem
http://www.vanrafelghem.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans Van 
Rafelghem <hvr@a...> wrote:
> Am I missing something? Why would a Digital B&W group need silver 
paper and chemicals?

This is a group for people who want to make black and white prints of 
their digital files.   There is a reason why it is NOT called 
the "INKJET" black and white printing forum.  Inkjet is not the only 
game in town.

There are many ways of making black and white prints from digital 
files.   Personally I prefer prints on photographic (silver emulsion) 
paper.  I believe that produces prints that are stable, nueutral, and 
free of metamerism to a degree that no current inkjet technology can 
approach.

Peter Nelson wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans Van 
>Rafelghem <hvr@a...> wrote:
>  
>
>>Am I missing something? Why would a Digital B&W group need silver 
>>    
>>
>paper and chemicals?
>
>This is a group for people who want to make black and white prints of 
>their digital files.   There is a reason why it is NOT called 
>the "INKJET" black and white printing forum.  Inkjet is not the only 
>game in town.
>
>There are many ways of making black and white prints from digital 
>files.   Personally I prefer prints on photographic (silver emulsion) 
>paper.  I believe that produces prints that are stable, nueutral, and 
>free of metamerism to a degree that no current inkjet technology can 
>approach.  
>
>  
>
Sorry for my ignorance, but how do you do that starting from a digital file?
-- 

Hans Van Rafelghem
http://www.vanrafelghem.com/

> >There are many ways of making black and white prints from digital 
> >files. 

> Sorry for my ignorance, but how do you do that starting from a digital file?
> Hans Van Rafelghem

Try here: http://www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com/

Digital negatives printed on a 2200 that are used to make darkroom
(chemical) prints. 
Tom Robinson

> Am I missing something? Why would a Digital B&W group need silver paper
> and chemicals?
> -- 
> 
> Hans Van Rafelghem

> Am I missing something? Why would a Digital B&W group need 
> silver paper and chemicals?
> -- 
> 
> Hans Van Rafelghem
> http://www.vanrafelghem.com/

There are a number of photographers who output to digital negatives and
contact print on silver gel or alt papers such as platinum.  Granted, it is
not exactly a digital print, but the availablity of b&w materials is of
considerable interest generally to photgraphers, digital or otherwise.  Nice
site, BTW.  

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com

Subject: Re: Ilford

> >There are many ways of making black and white prints from digital
> >files.

> Sorry for my ignorance, but how do you do that starting from a digital
file?
> Hans Van Rafelghem

Well - I've made 11x14 contact prints from enlarged "digital" negatives made
from scanned 4x5 (and some 8x10) B&W negatives

Among other things

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans Van
Rafelghem <hvr@a...> wrote:
> Peter Nelson wrote:

> Sorry for my ignorance, but how do you do that starting from a
digital file?

I use a professional lab.

On every image file I give them I have a grayscale step wedge. (I cut
it off the final print with a paper cutter). I supply them with a
print of the step wedge that they can use for a reference when they
make the print.

And, in addition to what Peter Nelson has written, because many of us shoot
film, develop it, scan it, and print it digitally. There are quite a number
of hybrid workflows out there now.

Cheers,
Matthew Born
http://www.bornphotos.com

On 9/29/04 5:48 PM, "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com"
<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Am I missing something? Why would a Digital B&W group need silver paper
> and chemicals?
> -- 
> 
> Hans Van Rafelghem
> http://www.vanrafelghem.com/

Tim Atherton <timatherton@t...> wrote:

> 
> Well - I've made 11x14 contact prints from enlarged "digital" 
negatives made
> from scanned 4x5 (and some 8x10) B&W negatives
> 
> Among other things

What differences do you notice between these and in-camera negative 
contact prints?

Jonathan

...

>Nice
>site, BTW.  
>
>Regards,
>
>  --Ken Carney
>
Thanks Ken,
-- 

Hans Van Rafelghem
http://www.vanrafelghem.com/