Digital BW, The Print

I've had UT7 inks in my 2100 (2200) for two weeks now and am 
delighted with the results that I'm getting using the sliders in the 
Epson driver.  Clearly there's some trial and error to go through 
for each paper to work out personal preferences but I've achieved 
superb results.  These inks are superb.

But, I first tried the adjustment curves from Paul Roark and found a 
real problem.  I should say first that I've been through all of the 
settings and double-checked everything – but who's to say I've not 
overlooked something!  They're all as per Paul's directions.  For 
every one of the curves supplied (for EEM) when applied as directed, 
the print tones are heavily skewed.  Bear with me as I try to 
explain.  I've printed several step wedges and smooth wedges using 
these curves and all of them print as though they're very low 
contrast.  The 100% black is full black but it rises very quickly 
out of the deep black into dark grey.  It then continues at a 
flatter rate through to light grey then very quickly rises to paper 
base white.  The ramp is nowhere near linear.  It's similar to (but 
not precisely the same as) printing with the contrast slider set to 
minus 25, i.e. it's seems to be very low contrast whilst holding on 
to the black and white at each end.

If it weren't for the fact that I get brilliant results using the 
sliders and UT7 I'd probably have written off UT7 and Paul's 
curves.  But from what I read in this forum and elsewhere it must be 
me and my setup not the inks and curves.

f.y.i. 1 - I use Photoshop CS on an XP Home PC.

f.y.i. 2 - I use a particularly well laid out greyscale available on 
John Paul Caponigro's site - 
http://johnpaulcaponigro.com/resources/files.html

I must be doing something wrong but I can't for the life of me see 
what.  Can anyone help please?  Thanks in anticipation.

Steve Gledhill
www.virtuallygrey.co.uk

Hello
 
Did you switch the image to RGB mode, then apply the curve, and print the image?  The curves can only be applied to the image in RGB mode.

Thanks
Ross

virtuallygrey <stephengledhill@...> wrote:
I've had UT7 inks in my 2100 (2200) for two weeks now and am 
delighted with the results that I'm getting using the sliders in the 
Epson driver.  Clearly there's some trial and error to go through 
for each paper to work out personal preferences but I've achieved 
superb results.  These inks are superb.

But, I first tried the adjustment curves from Paul Roark and found a 
real problem.  I should say first that I've been through all of the 
settings and double-checked everything � but who's to say I've not 
overlooked something!  They're all as per Paul's directions.  For 
every one of the curves supplied (for EEM) when applied as directed, 
the print tones are heavily skewed.  Bear with me as I try to 
explain.  I've printed several step wedges and smooth wedges using 
these curves and all of them print as though they're very low 
contrast.  The 100% black is full black but it rises very quickly 
out of the deep black into dark grey.  It then continues at a 
flatter rate through to light grey then very quickly rises to paper 
base white.  The ramp is nowhere near linear.  It's similar to (but 
not precisely the same as) printing with the contrast slider set to 
minus 25, i.e. it's seems to be very low contrast whilst holding on 
to the black and white at each end.

If it weren't for the fact that I get brilliant results using the 
sliders and UT7 I'd probably have written off UT7 and Paul's 
curves.  But from what I read in this forum and elsewhere it must be 
me and my setup not the inks and curves.

f.y.i. 1 - I use Photoshop CS on an XP Home PC.

f.y.i. 2 - I use a particularly well laid out greyscale available on 
John Paul Caponigro's site - 
http://johnpaulcaponigro.com/resources/files.html

I must be doing something wrong but I can't for the life of me see 
what.  Can anyone help please?  Thanks in anticipation.

Steve Gledhill
www.virtuallygrey.co.uk



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

   To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
  
   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ross Borgida 
<borgida@y...> wrote:
> Hello
>  
> Did you switch the image to RGB mode, then apply the curve, and 
print the image?  The curves can only be applied to the image in RGB 
mode.
> 
> Thanks
> Ross
> 

Ross,
Yes - and I saw the brilliantly garish results on screen - only 
available in RGB!  It's an act of faith when first seeing them then 
going to print - but a few moments thought deals with that!

Steve

http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/index.html

It's hard to say what the problem might be, but I'd be sure the color
management is in "No Color Adjustment" (after hitting "ICM").  Be sure the
tone curve is either on a flattened image or on the top layer.

I'm not sure I've ever seen results from a 2100 as opposed to 2200.  So, I'm
also not 100% sure the printers are the same.  The 1290, for example, prints
slightly darker than the 1280 when the UT2 curves are used.

The fact that the sliders work is a good sign, however.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
__________________

-----Original Message-----
From: virtuallygrey [mailto:stephengledhill@...] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 11:57 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] UT7 inks and Paul's Curves - I have a problem

I've had UT7 inks in my 2100 (2200) for two weeks now and am 
delighted with the results that I'm getting using the sliders in the 
Epson driver.  Clearly there's some trial and error to go through 
for each paper to work out personal preferences but I've achieved 
superb results.  These inks are superb.

But, I first tried the adjustment curves from Paul Roark and found a 
real problem.  I should say first that I've been through all of the 
settings and double-checked everything - but who's to say I've not 
overlooked something!  They're all as per Paul's directions.  For 
every one of the curves supplied (for EEM) when applied as directed, 
the print tones are heavily skewed.  Bear with me as I try to 
explain.  I've printed several step wedges and smooth wedges using 
these curves and all of them print as though they're very low 
contrast.  The 100% black is full black but it rises very quickly 
out of the deep black into dark grey.  It then continues at a 
flatter rate through to light grey then very quickly rises to paper 
base white.  The ramp is nowhere near linear.  It's similar to (but 
not precisely the same as) printing with the contrast slider set to 
minus 25, i.e. it's seems to be very low contrast whilst holding on 
to the black and white at each end.

If it weren't for the fact that I get brilliant results using the 
sliders and UT7 I'd probably have written off UT7 and Paul's 
curves.  But from what I read in this forum and elsewhere it must be 
me and my setup not the inks and curves.

f.y.i. 1 - I use Photoshop CS on an XP Home PC.

f.y.i. 2 - I use a particularly well laid out greyscale available on 
John Paul Caponigro's site - 
http://johnpaulcaponigro.com/resources/files.html

I must be doing something wrong but I can't for the life of me see 
what.  Can anyone help please?  Thanks in anticipation.

Steve Gledhill
www.virtuallygrey.co.uk




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Make sure you set 'Same as source' as the profile in the photoshop print 
dialog. Setting this wrong could easily lead to the problems you are 
experiencing.

I'm also using a 2100 and the curves work great.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

I am strictly an amatuer, but I print about everyday, and have been 
trying a lot of the things out there for BW printing. I must have 
calibrated my screen 20 times, and read every article I could find. One 
of the main things i learned so far, is that My systems must be weird. 
Every single icc profile, or adjustment curve, or driver setting needs 
to be pretty significantly adjusted. I have never been able to get a 
icc profile to work. They were never better than stock, so i gave up on 
those. Pauls curves were actually pretty close, but I still needed to 
adjust contrast/lightness etc at least a little bit. Same with using 
the sliders. Every paper needs to be adjusted a little diferently than 
described. It takes a few prints to figure out a new paper. It seems 
that no matter what, i need to lighten the print by about 5-7, (but not 
always!) and sometimes also add a contrast boost of +2. Thats after i 
have tried a few media settings to find out which is the closest to 
good! My color printer is a 1200, and it is even more whacked. I always 
have to bring down the cyan by a LOT, boost the magenta, decrease the 
density, and slightly boost the saturation. The settings that are 
described by others for a certain paper/ink combo are never ever right. 
Once dialed in by trial and error, they print consistently well 
however. SO...... I just sort of use trial and error to get it done 
pretty quick now. Keep in mind that a tiny adjustment can make a big 
diference when you start getting real picky about the 
result........printers a are real finicky, and I guess they vary a lot 
as they come off the line.......Just my limited insight...DM

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> It's hard to say what the problem might be, but I'd be sure the 
color
> management is in "No Color Adjustment" (after hitting "ICM").  Be 
sure the
> tone curve is either on a flattened image or on the top layer.
> 
> I'm not sure I've ever seen results from a 2100 as opposed to 
2200.  So, I'm
> also not 100% sure the printers are the same.  The 1290, for 
example, prints
> slightly darker than the 1280 when the UT2 curves are used.
> 
> The fact that the sliders work is a good sign, however.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> __________________

Thanks Paul - I was at first puzzled by exactly what you say above - 
and in your written guidance. You say "I'd be sure the color 
management is in "No Color Adjustment" (after hitting "ICM")".  I 
hadn't realised that the ICM check box you refer to is on the front 
tab of the driver whilst the "No Colour Settings" is under the 
Advanced button.  I actually ticked ICM on the advanced page, and 
noticed that the No Colour Adjustments was not selected - so I 
thought that was it.  BUT, clearly I was printing with ICM switched 
on - but presumably with whatever colour adjustment it saw fit to do.

I've tried a print or two using curves and - they do exactly what 
they are supposed to do.

So, the moral for me here is "FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS - TO THE 
LETTER" ... !

Thanks Paul.

BTW, everything I've seen and experienced about the 2100 says it's 
the same as the 2200 - but then I can't follow instructions so who 
am I to say!  Does anyone know different?

Steve Gledhill
http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk