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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

2004-09-16 by sinwen

Hello All,

I am new on this forum so I don't understand the many abbreviations on the post. For example what means BO or QTR  (Quad tone rip ?) ?
I have a 4000 pro and cannot afford to dedicate it to B&W, so I am using Ultrachrome inks, on H.William Tuner I have some very nice monochrome result but I guess it could be better. So I was very surprised to see you mentioned the same in your post.
I guess there is a way to obtain better result just by choosing appropriate settings both in Photoshop and the Epson driver.
If you choose B&W setting the driver switch to Epson gamma 1.8 or 2.2 and any ICC profil is cancel. I you choose Colour I never manage to get any real B&W print, always having some disturbing colour tones.
I am waiting for a Monaco Ez system and hope to be able to make good B&W profil with it.

Something else with the 4000, the driver ask you to choose a paper type but propose only Epson type, for example "photo glossy premium 250" and when you are not using Epson papers you have to try them all to find the right one for the particular paper you are using, this setting give great differences for the same paper.
Funny enough some of these settings are not usable, all "glossy" settings for example are not accepted, the printer goes on error.

I believe some of you went through these and if they could give their comments, they would be welcome.

Michel
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: john dean 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 7:24 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?


  We've all been there at one time or another. I've used all the color and quad tone inksets ( 
  both Lyson's for 4 years ) except Paul's new MIS pigments, and my opinion is as follows.

  For the very highest quality monochrome output I would choose either Cone Piezzotone 
  carbon pigments or Paul Roarks UT carbon pigment. You can use Quad Tone Rip if you 
  want on these but it is not necessary for outstanding monochrome output. These inksets 
  represent the state of the art.

  But, for simpliciity and if you need to also do color output from your pigment printer, the 
  previous post about the new Epson 4000 is probably the best choice as long as the 17" 
  width size works for you. If you go this route, and it is a very good route, be sure you have 
  a custom profile made for you paper to linearize the color out for clean black and white's 
  without metamerism. If you choose to use Roy Harrington's QTR rip you can produce first 
  class monochrome work with any of these inksets, with no color shift at all under varying 
  light sources. Personally this is the method that probably makes the most sense for 
  simplicity and economic considerations.  You can also tone the monochrome prints using 
  QTR within that driver.

  If you do your homework all of these systems can produce beautiful black and white 
  output. I personally use two methods now after leaving the Lyson products because of 
  metamerism issues. Piezzography and black only printing using the Epson 10K. When 
  using black only output I convert the file to greyscale and use grey 1.8 as a profile. I just 
  did a show for the Atlanta airport using this method and they were beautifully rich. 
  However when doing BO output it is very important to use a slightly textured paper to hide 
  any dithering, I favor Somerset Velvet and Hahnemuhle William Turner. I have also had hit 
  and miss results from Enhanced Matte and H. Photo Rag . The big problem with BO 
  printing is the lack of a light black and medium light black to fill in those subtle highlight 
  areas. Compare this with the best Quad inks and you will quickly notice the difference, 
  especially in smaller prints of very subtle quality. BO printing on the smaller printers can 
  be abismal though. The 10K lets you get away with it on many projects because of the 
  huge head and good driver.

  To get simple with all this, Ultrachrome inks on the 4000 or 7600 can do very fine 
  monochrome work if it is set up right. This is the method that Nash Editions uses. There is 
  always someone to help you in that direction. For the top of the line black and white 
  output Quad Carbon pigments by MIS or Cone are the very finest products out there.

  john dean



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

2004-09-16 by Clayton Jones

Hello Michel,

>I am new on this forum so I don't understand the many 
>abbreviations on the post. For example what means BO or 
>QTR  (Quad tone rip ?) ?

Yes, you are correct on the QTR.  It is a shareware RIP ($50) for Mac
or PC.  It blends the UC inks to achieve neutral (or toned) BW.

BO means "Black Only", the technique of using black only ink.  There
is info about it on my web site (link below).  

>I have a 4000 pro and cannot afford to dedicate it to B&W, so 
>I am using Ultrachrome inks, on H.William Tuner I have some 
>very nice monochrome result but I guess it could be better. 

The problem with UC inks and the Epson driver is prints always have
some degree of metamerism.  Using a RIP is the only way to get truly
neutral metamerism-free BW prints with color inks.  Since you want to
print color as well as BW, your choices are limited to BO or one of the
RIPs.  QTR is excellent and also the least expensive.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

2004-09-16 by sinwen

Clayton,

Many thanks for your answer, as you can understand from my previous post, I scan B&W neg which become grayscale in PS then print them choosing black in the Epson driver. But I will change that very soon. I may snap only colour transparencies and change them to B&W under PS, I have to experiment a bit.
So without knowing I was doing what you call BO, I always found it much better than FI. I have read most of your site, i must clap my hands it is brightly explained and very easy to understand.
Nonetheless one question, with the Epson 4000 I have two Black cartridges, one is dedicated to matt paper and the other to the rest. Which one has to be changed for Eboni and which Reference has to be used ? Can I keep the Epson UT for the other cartridges ? (sorry that is a second question :-)

Michel
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Clayton Jones 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 11:47 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?


  Hello Michel,

  >I am new on this forum so I don't understand the many 
  >abbreviations on the post. For example what means BO or 
  >QTR  (Quad tone rip ?) ?

  Yes, you are correct on the QTR.  It is a shareware RIP ($50) for Mac
  or PC.  It blends the UC inks to achieve neutral (or toned) BW.

  BO means "Black Only", the technique of using black only ink.  There
  is info about it on my web site (link below).  

  >I have a 4000 pro and cannot afford to dedicate it to B&W, so 
  >I am using Ultrachrome inks, on H.William Tuner I have some 
  >very nice monochrome result but I guess it could be better. 

  The problem with UC inks and the Epson driver is prints always have
  some degree of metamerism.  Using a RIP is the only way to get truly
  neutral metamerism-free BW prints with color inks.  Since you want to
  print color as well as BW, your choices are limited to BO or one of the
  RIPs.  QTR is excellent and also the least expensive.

  Regards,
  Clayton


  Info on black and white digital printing at    
  http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

2004-09-17 by Clayton Jones

Hello Michel,

>Nonetheless one question, with the Epson 4000 I have two Black
>cartridges, one is dedicated to matt paper and the other to the 
>rest. Which one has to be changed for Eboni and which Reference 
>has to be used ? 

I don't use a 4000 but I'm pretty sure the Matte Black is the one
that's replaced with Eboni, and then you would choose Enhanced Matte
paper, I think.  Carl Schofield knows, so maybe he'll see this and
jump in here...


>Can I keep the Epson UT for the other cartridges?  

You mean UC color inks?  Again, I don't know about the 4000 for sure,
but I think so.  I used Eboni with the UC colors for a long time in my
2200 and it seemed to work fine for color prints (although I only did
a few tests, I hardly ever print color).


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

2004-09-17 by B. Campbell

>>Can I keep the Epson UT for the other cartridges?

>You mean UC color inks?  Again, I don't know about the 4000 for sure,
>but I think so.  I used Eboni with the UC colors for a long time in my
>2200 and it seemed to work fine for color prints (although I only did
>a few tests, I hardly ever print color).

I print a fair amount of color with an Epson 2200 using the Eboni black ink
in place of the Epson matte or photo black. It looks fine, though I don't
take my color work as seriously as black and white so my standards for it
probably aren't as high as for black and white. A really serious color
printer might find some fault with the Eboni black in color printing but it
looks fine to me.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 11:03 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?


Hello Michel,

>Nonetheless one question, with the Epson 4000 I have two Black
>cartridges, one is dedicated to matt paper and the other to the
>rest. Which one has to be changed for Eboni and which Reference
>has to be used ?

I don't use a 4000 but I'm pretty sure the Matte Black is the one
that's replaced with Eboni, and then you would choose Enhanced Matte
paper, I think.  Carl Schofield knows, so maybe he'll see this and
jump in here...


>Can I keep the Epson UT for the other cartridges?

You mean UC color inks?  Again, I don't know about the 4000 for sure,
but I think so.  I used Eboni with the UC colors for a long time in my
2200 and it seemed to work fine for color prints (although I only did
a few tests, I hardly ever print color).


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

2004-09-17 by Steve Kale

If you properly calibrate the printer then there is no problem simply
replacing the MK cartridge with Eboni.  However, on a cost basis you should
probably consider a CFS as the Epson cartridges are expensive and don't last
long.  I use one from MIS with Eboni in the K position.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "B. Campbell" <bellis60@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:16:13 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?
> 
>>> Can I keep the Epson UT for the other cartridges?
> 
>> You mean UC color inks?  Again, I don't know about the 4000 for sure,
>> but I think so.  I used Eboni with the UC colors for a long time in my
>> 2200 and it seemed to work fine for color prints (although I only did
>> a few tests, I hardly ever print color).
> 
> I print a fair amount of color with an Epson 2200 using the Eboni black ink
> in place of the Epson matte or photo black. It looks fine, though I don't
> take my color work as seriously as black and white so my standards for it
> probably aren't as high as for black and white. A really serious color
> printer might find some fault with the Eboni black in color printing but it
> looks fine to me.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 11:03 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?
> 
> 
> Hello Michel,
> 
>> Nonetheless one question, with the Epson 4000 I have two Black
>> cartridges, one is dedicated to matt paper and the other to the
>> rest. Which one has to be changed for Eboni and which Reference
>> has to be used ?
> 
> I don't use a 4000 but I'm pretty sure the Matte Black is the one
> that's replaced with Eboni, and then you would choose Enhanced Matte
> paper, I think.  Carl Schofield knows, so maybe he'll see this and
> jump in here...
> 
> 
>> Can I keep the Epson UT for the other cartridges?
> 
> You mean UC color inks?  Again, I don't know about the 4000 for sure,
> but I think so.  I used Eboni with the UC colors for a long time in my
> 2200 and it seemed to work fine for color prints (although I only did
> a few tests, I hardly ever print color).
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton

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