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Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-19 by bhhc

You might consider it a political ranting, but it is in fact true.

Unfortunately, it frequently means useful things, like software, are not allowed to be sold here because they do not yet have a French version, films not available, a variety of products not available. Ranting, no . . . a sad reality, yes

Paul Aparycki
  Your political rantings are out of place here. Please take them to a
  more appropriate newsgroup.

  André


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-19 by Andre

A political ranting is a political ranting. This is not the place for
politics. Period.

André

Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-19 by Clayton Jones

Hello Andre,

>A political ranting is a political ranting. This is not the place for
>politics.  Period.

I have been following this entire thread and have found it very
interesting and informative, especially the part about Quebec.  I have
learned a lot about paper sizes, metric system, a bit of obscure
history, a snippet about life in Quebec, and have enjoyed it all very
much.

I was surprised by your rather strident objection because his
explanation didn't have (at least to me) the negative vibes suggested
by the term "rant".  I realized I didn't know the exact definition of
rant, so I looked it up: "To speak violently, loudly, and at length".
 IMO he did none of the three.  

To me he was sharing with us a glimpse of his reality as it related to
the subject, and was not attempting to pursuade, or influence, or
anything else that could be called "political".

As for the OT nature of the thread, my understanding after 3+ years of
participation here, is that the occasional OT subject is ok as long as
it doesn't get out of hand, become a flame war and take over the
forum.  There have been several occasions when that happened and the
moderators had to step in and squelch it.  This thread has not been
that way at all.  It has been very pleasant and enjoyable and seems to
be pretty well winding down.

For me, the occasional OT thread is part of what makes this forum such
a rich and rewarding experience.  I'd be bored to death if there was
nothing here but clogs and curves.  The forum participants bring a
wide body of experience and knowledge to it and it is by far my
favorite on-line home-away-from-home.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-20 by Bob Frost

Manoj,

< Road signs still specify miles.

They do in the UK as well, despite us having largely 'gone metric'. And we 
still drink pints of beer! Cricket pitches are still 22 yards long, although 
I think they are officially designated now as being 20.12 metres long.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jimpatel63" <jimpatel63@...>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-20 by bhhc

Whenever you see an entry vis-a-vis Farnsworth (boy genius?), they always start,"legend has it" as regarding his supposed description to his school class. Not the stuff that is very concrete I am afraid.

Nipkow was a Russian who demonstrated a "scanning disc" system, the basic concept (scan) of television. Baird built the first "mechanical" concept. Without those the farm boy wouldn't have had the impetus to carry on with experiments. Further, when Swinton (Brit) and Rosing (Russian) had seen Nipkows "disc" system . . . the route which Baird followed, they decided to go the route of developing the cathode ray tube. Zworykin, a student of Rosing, worked on the principal when he was at Westinghouse and ultimately did create a rudimentary system later though there is much arguement about Zworykin "stealing?" the idea (probably true).

Swinton and Rosing's work was in 1906. Maybe you count the dates backward in the US, but Farnsworth applied for his patent for a cathode ray tube in 1926-28 (oddly enough no one has the exact date . . . though the date in the patent office IS 1927) . . . by the rest of the world's time line, twenty (20) years later. Further, if you insist that it wasn't the cathode ray tube, don't argue with me about it . . . maybe you can raise Farnsworth from the dead and tell him HE was wrong?, not you.

Paul Aparycki
Your reply is full of errors. Nipkow was not Russian. He did not
invent the cathode ray tube. The cathode ray tube does not equal a
television set. Presenting a concpet and building a working
prototype are two entirely different things.

Like it or not, whether you believe it or not is immaterial. The
fact is in 1927, Philo Farnsworth was the first inventor to transmit
a television image comprised of 60 horizontal lines. The image
transmitted was a dollar sign. Farnsworth developed the dissector
tube, the basis of all current electronic televisions.

Jay

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-20 by bhhc

Andre;

I suspected you were a quebecer, and like most who are nationalist in attitude, have a hard time listening to truth. I do not, nor do I wish the "French to disappear". I am fluently bilingual, live with a french woman, my two daughters speak three and four languages respectively. What you say about the fun stuff in Montreal is true, but my remarks are accurate. you neglect to mention the nearly 200 million budgeted every year to what is essentially"language police", government employess who regularily spend time harassing predominately English towns and the Jewish community. As an example to our readers, during this Jewish holy period, there are many food speciality items that kosher stores carry, and as expected, their labeling is usually in Yiddish and sometimes English. More than once the OLF (language police) have gone to these stores due to a complaint filed anonomously by "nationalists" forcing the store to remove the items. TWICE now, the province has been censured in the UN for what is seen as an undemocratic, and quite frankly, rascist attitude (there is a third case pending to be presented before the UN in the spring). Even our previous "gestapo" head, Ms Beauduoin, was the subject of a 60 Minutes interview centering specifically on this subject.

What I stated are simple facts. I have many friends who have left Quebec, virtually ALL OF THEM French because they cannot stand this repressive attitude, and they like I, are sick of Quebec being seen as the world's first "fourth world" country. They haven't all gone to the US where they can make more money (some are engineers and some, like my wife, medical professionals), but most have gone elsewhere in Canada. It is extremely difficult for small business people to own and operate a business here . . . they are constantly harassed by a mentality and the incessant government red-tape and BS that is completely counter-productive.

Finally, you are right that this is not a forum for this, but to call me a "political rant", simply because you like to hide from reality . . . please. Are you that ashamed?

Paul Aparycki

(returning to work in French and interactivity in French my small town . . . I am the only English person here, and I like it that way)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-20 by bhhc

It is not Americans that are the only ones who are resistant. Canada didn't change over too readily. While some might say we are completely metric, I don't think the change is fully effected until people "think" in metric.

I think the key is to stick it into your schools from the first year, then grin and bear it. We did that here, and you could have sworn that the four horsemen of the apocalypse were due to arrive at any moment. Didn't happen. The biggest problem ends up being the baby-boomers, people like me. I still jump back and forth between the two, My mother tries to accept metric, and my daughters don't really know what avoirdupoids is. Ultimately, when My parents die off, then I, the conversion is complete . . . until somebody decides to convert to something else . . . thankfully I won't be around to see it ;-).

I agree with your attitude of advantages of living where you are. I like Quebec, but I have lived "and liked" in England and France (I was born in England), and in the US for a couple of years. I always come back here. Elsewhere is always interesting, but I am old enough to know that "the grass is always greener?"

Also, on the original topic, when Reagan adopted the 8.5x11 standard
for the government in the 80s (changing from a size the government
used to use before that) it was a perfect opportunity to specify
metric paper sizes. Another example of internal regulation that
ignored metric.

I am not actually frustrated by this, there are many advantages of
being in America (which is why I am still here :-), this is a
relatively minor annoyance. There are major issues coming up now,
but I *really* want to keep politics off this thread :-).

Manoj

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-20 by The Wogster

On 20 Sep 2004 at 10:35, bhhc wrote:

> Also, on the original topic, when Reagan adopted the 8.5x11 standard 
> for the government in the 80s (changing from a size the government 
> used to use before that) it was a perfect opportunity to specify 
> metric paper sizes. Another example of internal regulation that 
> ignored metric. 

This probably has a lot to do with the folks in Washington at the time, considering 
that Reagan died last year, well into his 90's, in the early 1980's he would have 
been past 70,  most of his closest advisors would have been older as well, so they 
personally unlikely understood the metric paper sizes, so they adopted what they 
knew, which was inches.  If the proposers would have presented the metric A4 size 
as 8 1/4 x 11 11/16ths they probably would have adopted it.  

W

Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-20 by Phil Morse

Stephen,

Please keep logical, non-political rubbish like this last comment off the 
list.

Phil Morse

Show quoted textHide quoted text

Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???


Change for change's sake is usually not a beneficial proposition.

Why should the US change? So far I have not seen an argument.

Why should we not change? Well, there will be a great cost of going through
the change. So, if there is no benefit....

-Stephen
 www.sbillard.org/Stephen

[Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-20 by Andre

> "Finally, you are right that this is not a forum for this,"

Kind of hypocritical after what you've just said.

"but to call me a "political rant", "

Xenophobic, racist, Gestapo, these are your words.

simply because you like to hide from reality . . . please. Are you
that ashamed?
> 
For the third and last time, there are forums better suited for your
political views. I'll meet you there anytime.

André Moreau

RE: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-20 by Stephen Billard

Sorry, what was I thinking...

-Stephen
 www.sbillard.org/Stephen

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Morse [mailto:pmorse@...] 
> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 11:41 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
> 
> 
> Stephen,
> 
> Please keep logical, non-political rubbish like this last 
> comment off the 
> list.
> 
> Phil Morse
> 
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
> 
> 
> Change for change's sake is usually not a beneficial proposition.
> 
> Why should the US change? So far I have not seen an argument.
> 
> Why should we not change? Well, there will be a great cost of 
> going through the change. So, if there is no benefit....
> 
> -Stephen
>  www.sbillard.org/Stephen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-20 by Bob Frost

Stephen,

Surely the obvious reason is that if American industry wants to sell any 
paper, paper-handling machinery - printers, copiers,  or folders etc for 
filing, it has to make two versions, one for its own market and one for the 
rest of the world. That costs.

Here's are some quotes from that article on paper sizes that I listed 
earlier:-
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-paper.html

"Globalization starts with getting the details right. Inconsistent use of SI 
units and international standard paper sizes remain today a primary cause 
for U.S. businesses failing to meet the expectations of the global economy. 
"
"Users of photocopiers outside the U.S. and Canada usually take it for 
granted that the machine is able to enlarge A4 ? A3 or reduce A3 ? A4, the 
two paper formats usually kept in machines with two paper trays. When they 
use a copier in North America, it often comes as a disappointing surprise 
when they find out that magnifying an entire page is not a function 
available there. The absence of this useful capability is a direct result of 
the unfortunate design of the U.S. paper formats. North American copiers 
usually also have two or more paper trays, but these are mostly used for the 
two very similar "Letter" and "Legal" formats, wasting the opportunity of 
offering a highly useful magnifying capability. Any enlarging of a "Letter" 
page onto "Legal" paper will always chop off margins and is therefore of 
little use. The Legal format itself is quite rarely used, the notion that it 
is for "legal" work is a popular myth; the vast majority of U.S. legal 
documents are actually using the "Letter" format. Some copiers also offer in 
addition or instead the next larger "Ledger" format, but that again has a 
different aspect ratio and will therefore change the margins of a document 
during magnification or reduction. "

"If you purchase new office or printing equipment in North America, it might 
be wise to pay attention whether the equipment is suitable for use with A4 
paper. When you make inquiries, best indicate to vendors that ISO 216 
compatibility of equipment is of concern to you. "

"Universities in the U.S. increasingly use A4 size paper in laser printers 
and library copying machines, because most conferences outside North America 
require papers to be submitted in A4 format and many journals and conference 
proceedings are printed in A4 format. "

"The three-hole 70-mm filing system widely used in the U.S. is not 
compatible with the two-hole 80-mm ISO system used in most other countries. 
The three-hole system could of course also be used on A4 pages, but many 
files with a three-hole mechanism are only designed for U.S. "Letter" sheets 
and are not tall enough to reliably protect A4 pages. Another disadvantage 
of the three-hole system is that it is not suitable for storing formats 
smaller than U.S. "Letter". "

Enough reasons surely?

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stephen Billard" <stephen@...>


Why should the US change? So far I have not seen an argument.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-20 by Robert W. Shearer

The truth of the matter is that the change to metric was a whiney
politically correct attempt to fix what "ain't broke."
It did not go forward because it was unacceptable the the American public.
The US system of measurement is part of US character as is our language and
our customs.  If you want to do business with us, learn it, if you want to
live here accept it, if not, stay home. If I choose to live in Europe I
would not expect Europe to change for me. How absurd it is that some parts
of the world cannot grasp that elegant and simple concept.
Bob

Show quoted textHide quoted text

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Billard" <stephen@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

Change for change's sake is usually not a beneficial proposition.

Why should the US change? So far I have not seen an argument.

Why should we not change? Well, there will be a great cost of going through
the change. So, if there is no benefit....

-Stephen
 www.sbillard.org/Stephen

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jimpatel63 [mailto:jimpatel63@...]
> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 7:52 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
>
>

> Americans as a whole are actually very resistant to change. It is a
> small minority of leading edge folks that spearheaded the internet
> and other technologies here, not the masses. I cannot see many
> politicians willing to force a new system down the American public's
> throat. e.g. HDTV was stalled for years as Congress required that
> any new system also be compatible with NTSC. Luckily, they finally
> recanted on that, but look at how slowly HDTV is moving here anyway,
> even in the land which has more disposable income than any other.
> Those of us in Urban areas don't appreciate how the vast majority of
> America lives (in small towns dotted throughout the country).
>
>

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
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them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
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printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
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POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-20 by Steve Kale

OK kiddies...enough is enough

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> From: "Robert W. Shearer" <rwshearer@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:14:54 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
> 
> 
> The truth of the matter is that the change to metric was a whiney
> politically correct attempt to fix what "ain't broke."
> It did not go forward because it was unacceptable the the American public.
> The US system of measurement is part of US character as is our language and
> our customs.  If you want to do business with us, learn it, if you want to
> live here accept it, if not, stay home. If I choose to live in Europe I
> would not expect Europe to change for me. How absurd it is that some parts
> of the world cannot grasp that elegant and simple concept.
> Bob

Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-20 by Hogarth Hughes

Oh please. Even England (your beloved imperial measurements came here 
from there and are decidedly *not* American in origin) has gone metric. 
The imperial system *is* broke, and should not be fixed, but should 
instead be replaced. Paper sizes are an excellent example. I'm not a 
European either. I'm an American saying it's broke and needs fixing.

I'd sit down and shut up if the market would sell me what I want, which 
is A1, A2, A3, and A4 sheets and appropriate roll sizes too.

It's 23C outside, I've got some photography to do...

Hogarth Hughes


Robert W. Shearer wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>The truth of the matter is that the change to metric was a whiney
>politically correct attempt to fix what "ain't broke."
>It did not go forward because it was unacceptable the the American public.
>The US system of measurement is part of US character as is our language and
>our customs.  If you want to do business with us, learn it, if you want to
>live here accept it, if not, stay home. If I choose to live in Europe I
>would not expect Europe to change for me. How absurd it is that some parts
>of the world cannot grasp that elegant and simple concept.
>Bob
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Stephen Billard" <stephen@...>
>To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 1:59 PM
>Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
>
>
>Change for change's sake is usually not a beneficial proposition.
>
>Why should the US change? So far I have not seen an argument.
>
>Why should we not change? Well, there will be a great cost of going through
>the change. So, if there is no benefit....
>
>-Stephen
> www.sbillard.org/Stephen
>
>
>  
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: jimpatel63 [mailto:jimpatel63@...]
>>Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 7:52 PM
>>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>Americans as a whole are actually very resistant to change. It is a
>>small minority of leading edge folks that spearheaded the internet
>>and other technologies here, not the masses. I cannot see many
>>politicians willing to force a new system down the American public's
>>throat. e.g. HDTV was stalled for years as Congress required that
>>any new system also be compatible with NTSC. Luckily, they finally
>>recanted on that, but look at how slowly HDTV is moving here anyway,
>>even in the land which has more disposable income than any other.
>>Those of us in Urban areas don't appreciate how the vast majority of
>>America lives (in small towns dotted throughout the country).
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
>they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
>Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
>"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
>FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
>DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
>GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
>"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
>POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
>TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
>ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
>THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
>MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
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RE: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-20 by Stephen Billard

Actually, no, these are BS reasons. Those businesses which wish to sell to
the metric market make metric products. Those who are satisfied with the US
niche make products for that marked. I said in a different post, but repeat
it here. There is a lot more to marketing to diverse cultures and countries
than the measurements that are used. Those other expenses far outweigh the
savings you have quoted. 

Companies will either decide to go the extra costs for this diversity or
they will forgo the markets. The bottom line is that the market place makes
these decisions, not idealists.

-Stephen
 www.sbillard.org/Stephen

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Frost [mailto:bob@...] 
> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 12:36 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
> 
> 
> Stephen,
> 
> Surely the obvious reason is that if American industry wants 
> to sell any 
> paper, paper-handling machinery - printers, copiers,  or 
> folders etc for 
> filing, it has to make two versions, one for its own market 
> and one for the 
> rest of the world. That costs.
> 
> Here's are some quotes from that article on paper sizes that I listed 
> earlier:-
> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-paper.html
> 
> "Globalization starts with getting the details right. 
> Inconsistent use of SI 
> units and international standard paper sizes remain today a 
> primary cause 
> for U.S. businesses failing to meet the expectations of the 
> global economy. 
> "
> "Users of photocopiers outside the U.S. and Canada usually 
> take it for 
> granted that the machine is able to enlarge A4 ? A3 or reduce 
> A3 ? A4, the 
> two paper formats usually kept in machines with two paper 
> trays. When they 
> use a copier in North America, it often comes as a 
> disappointing surprise 
> when they find out that magnifying an entire page is not a function 
> available there. The absence of this useful capability is a 
> direct result of 
> the unfortunate design of the U.S. paper formats. North 
> American copiers 
> usually also have two or more paper trays, but these are 
> mostly used for the 
> two very similar "Letter" and "Legal" formats, wasting the 
> opportunity of 
> offering a highly useful magnifying capability. Any enlarging 
> of a "Letter" 
> page onto "Legal" paper will always chop off margins and is 
> therefore of 
> little use. The Legal format itself is quite rarely used, the 
> notion that it 
> is for "legal" work is a popular myth; the vast majority of 
> U.S. legal 
> documents are actually using the "Letter" format. Some 
> copiers also offer in 
> addition or instead the next larger "Ledger" format, but that 
> again has a 
> different aspect ratio and will therefore change the margins 
> of a document 
> during magnification or reduction. "
> 
> "If you purchase new office or printing equipment in North 
> America, it might 
> be wise to pay attention whether the equipment is suitable 
> for use with A4 
> paper. When you make inquiries, best indicate to vendors that ISO 216 
> compatibility of equipment is of concern to you. "
> 
> "Universities in the U.S. increasingly use A4 size paper in 
> laser printers 
> and library copying machines, because most conferences 
> outside North America 
> require papers to be submitted in A4 format and many journals 
> and conference 
> proceedings are printed in A4 format. "
> 
> "The three-hole 70-mm filing system widely used in the U.S. is not 
> compatible with the two-hole 80-mm ISO system used in most 
> other countries. 
> The three-hole system could of course also be used on A4 
> pages, but many 
> files with a three-hole mechanism are only designed for U.S. 
> "Letter" sheets 
> and are not tall enough to reliably protect A4 pages. Another 
> disadvantage 
> of the three-hole system is that it is not suitable for 
> storing formats 
> smaller than U.S. "Letter". "
> 
> Enough reasons surely?
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> From: "Stephen Billard" <stephen@...>
> 
> 
> Why should the US change? So far I have not seen an argument.
> 
> 
> 
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> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN 
> IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
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> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
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Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-21 by john4mb

England use to have interesting paper sizes (before the switch to 
ISO ), like large post quarto 10" x 8", post quarto 9"x7", foolscap 
13"x8" to name but a few, we even had a flat sheet size called 
double elephant!  But sadly its now all A4's where ever you go - 
so stick with your American Quarto and be different.
Officially it's kilos and litres but most mature types think in 
pounds and pints - especially in the pub

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hogarth 
Hughes <hogarth@s...> wrote:
> Oh please. Even England (your beloved imperial 
measurements came here 
> from there and are decidedly *not* American in origin) has 
gone metric.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-21 by The Wogster

On 20 Sep 2004 at 14:53, Stephen Billard wrote:

> Actually, no, these are BS reasons. Those businesses which wish to sell to
> the metric market make metric products. Those who are satisfied with the US
> niche make products for that marked. I said in a different post, but repeat
> it here. There is a lot more to marketing to diverse cultures and countries
> than the measurements that are used. Those other expenses far outweigh the
> savings you have quoted. 

Around 90% of  the products you use today, are made elsewhere, and most of those 
products are made using metric sized parts, and are made with metric sized tools.  I 
remember having a set of metric tools in 1975, because every bolt, nut, and 
component on my Japanize made bicycle was metric.  Your camera has been 
metric for years as well.   Look at your lenses, for example, the focal length is 50 
mm, not 2 inches.  Mostly due to the fact that cameras were made in metric 
countries like Japan and Germany.  

> Companies will either decide to go the extra costs for this diversity or
> they will forgo the markets. The bottom line is that the market place makes
> these decisions, not idealists.
> 

Many things are metric, and you don't know it, until you look at odd sized 
measurements, like a toaster that is 6 11/16 x 8 5/8 x 5 1/2 because it's actually 
17cm x 22cm x 14cm converted and then rounded.  

W

RE: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-21 by Stephen Billard

And your point is?

I am quite willing to use products in both avoirdupois and metric. I'm also
pretty fluent in these measures. The products my company makes are metric
also. Hasn't caused our factory workers any difficulties.

My point is that the argument about saving lots of money is bogus. We spent
much more money producing, for instance, local language versions of our
software than in dealing with the difference between US measures and the
Metric system. The latter is just a noise part of the translations.

If you are inclined to regulate economies, please do so. However, regulated
economies have proved less than successful in recent times. Let the market
decide. If US companies were not competitive because they used 8.5x11 paper,
they would change.

-Stephen
 www.sbillard.org/Stephen

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Wogster [mailto:wogsterca@...] 
> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 7:38 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
> 
> 
> On 20 Sep 2004 at 14:53, Stephen Billard wrote:
> 
> > Actually, no, these are BS reasons. Those businesses which wish to 
> > sell to the metric market make metric products. Those who are 
> > satisfied with the US niche make products for that marked. 
> I said in a 
> > different post, but repeat it here. There is a lot more to 
> marketing 
> > to diverse cultures and countries than the measurements 
> that are used. 
> > Those other expenses far outweigh the savings you have quoted.
> 
> Around 90% of  the products you use today, are made 
> elsewhere, and most of those 
> products are made using metric sized parts, and are made with 
> metric sized tools.  I 
> remember having a set of metric tools in 1975, because every 
> bolt, nut, and 
> component on my Japanize made bicycle was metric.  Your 
> camera has been 
> metric for years as well.   Look at your lenses, for example, 
> the focal length is 50 
> mm, not 2 inches.  Mostly due to the fact that cameras were 
> made in metric 
> countries like Japan and Germany.  
> 
> > Companies will either decide to go the extra costs for this 
> diversity 
> > or they will forgo the markets. The bottom line is that the market 
> > place makes these decisions, not idealists.
> > 
> 
> Many things are metric, and you don't know it, until you look 
> at odd sized 
> measurements, like a toaster that is 6 11/16 x 8 5/8 x 5 1/2 
> because it's actually 
> 17cm x 22cm x 14cm converted and then rounded.  
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-21 by Steve Kale

Mature? Oh you mean those who don't get out much further than their local
pub....  ;-)

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> From: john4mb <johnmbrebner@...>

> Officially it's kilos and litres but most mature types think in
> pounds and pints - especially in the pub
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-21 by Steve Kale

Setting common standards is not the same thing as "regulation" in the manner
you infer.  Their are numerous examples of how the pursuit of common
standards has accelerated economic development and investment, eg almost any
agreement on computer communication protocols.  The mere fact of the matter
is that the US is a big enough market that its backwardness in this area has
been able to remain.  This is not the case in other industries eg the woeful
US cellular telephony market which is now many years behind its foreign
counterparts which benefited from the agreement of technology standards.

But please guys - enough is enough.  Can't we put this little argument to
bed?

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> From: Stephen Billard <stephen@...>


> 
> If you are inclined to regulate economies, please do so. However, regulated
> economies have proved less than successful in recent times. Let the market
> decide. If US companies were not competitive because they used 8.5x11 paper,
> they would change.
> 
> -Stephen
>  www.sbillard.org/Stephen

[Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

2004-09-21 by virtuallygrey

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:

...
> But please guys - enough is enough.  Can't we put this little 
argument to bed?
...

If only ...  But as it seems everyone involved has to have one last 
swipe before bedtime we'll never get to bed!

Steve

Digital BW, The Print

Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

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