Digital BW, The Print

Hi everyone!

3 weeks ago I encountered an annoying thing: I noticed that my fresh 
B&W quadtone prints were different when I compared them with older 
prints of the same file. As if the tones had shifted, with loss of 
detail. And the step wedge I printed looked bad: some of the steps in 
the middle area almost blended into each other. Something was not 
right, and it had to be the I N K, because when I printed pure 
swatches of black, Y, M and C (to be able to view, on the print, the 
pure, unmixed B&W inks) I could see and measure that it had changed 
compared to how it used to be (I compared it with a print of the same 
swatches I luckily made about a month ago).

I applied an extra Photoshop curve to "repair" this, and it
worked quite well. 
But now, 3 weeks later, it happens again! Again the prints and step 
wedge have changed! I don't want to go one and one adjusting each 
time, because it is a lot of work. And it is very frustating to know 
that your results are not consistent.


Now, how can it be that inks change tone? I could think of some 
reasons:

-they changed the receipe, down in the factory. By mistake or on 
purpose. Can that be?

-the inks have got too old. They are about a year old, I guess. 
Possible?

Is anyone familiar with this problem? And what should I do about it, 
because it drives me nuts?

All the time I've been using an Epson 1160 with B&W Sundance
Neutral Warm Inks (formerly PiezographyBW), and use the Photoshop 
curve that Paul Roark kindly provided for this inkset. 


Thanks in advance.

Igor Wesdorp
Amsterdam

The old Sundance WN inks are well know for the fading and warm shifting 
you are seeing. I suggest trying either the Piezotones or the current 
range of MIS inks. Current generation inks have pretty much solved this 
problem.

--
Hogarth Hughes


igorw2001 wrote:

>Hi everyone!
>
>3 weeks ago I encountered an annoying thing: I noticed that my fresh 
>B&W quadtone prints were different when I compared them with older 
>prints of the same file. As if the tones had shifted, with loss of 
>detail. And the step wedge I printed looked bad: some of the steps in 
>the middle area almost blended into each other. Something was not 
>right, and it had to be the I N K, because when I printed pure 
>swatches of black, Y, M and C (to be able to view, on the print, the 
>pure, unmixed B&W inks) I could see and measure that it had changed 
>compared to how it used to be (I compared it with a print of the same 
>swatches I luckily made about a month ago).
>
>I applied an extra Photoshop curve to "repair" this, and it
>worked quite well. 
>But now, 3 weeks later, it happens again! Again the prints and step 
>wedge have changed! I don't want to go one and one adjusting each 
>time, because it is a lot of work. And it is very frustating to know 
>that your results are not consistent.
>
>
>Now, how can it be that inks change tone? I could think of some 
>reasons:
>
>-they changed the receipe, down in the factory. By mistake or on 
>purpose. Can that be?
>
>-the inks have got too old. They are about a year old, I guess. 
>Possible?
>
>Is anyone familiar with this problem? And what should I do about it, 
>because it drives me nuts?
>
>All the time I've been using an Epson 1160 with B&W Sundance
>Neutral Warm Inks (formerly PiezographyBW), and use the Photoshop 
>curve that Paul Roark kindly provided for this inkset. 
>
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Igor Wesdorp
>Amsterdam
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
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>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
>
> 
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>  
>

I mean the NEW prints looked bad. The "old" (couple of days or 
weeks) were fine. That can not have anything to do with fading.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hogarth Hughes 
<hogarth@s...> wrote:
> The old Sundance WN inks are well know for the fading and warm 
shifting 
> you are seeing. I suggest trying either the Piezotones or the 
current 

> range of MIS inks. Current generation inks have pretty much solved 
this 
> problem.
> 
> --
> Hogarth Hughes
> 
> 
> igorw2001 wrote:
> 
> >Hi everyone!
> >
> >3 weeks ago I encountered an annoying thing: I noticed that my 
fresh 
> >B&W quadtone prints were different when I compared them with older 
> >prints of the same file. As if the tones had shifted, with loss of 
> >detail. And the step wedge I printed looked bad: some of the steps 
in 
> >the middle area almost blended into each other. Something was not 
> >right, and it had to be the I N K, because when I printed pure 
> >swatches of black, Y, M and C (to be able to view, on the print, 
the 
> >pure, unmixed B&W inks) I could see and measure that it had 
changed 
> >compared to how it used to be (I compared it with a print of the 
same 
> >swatches I luckily made about a month ago).
> >
> >I applied an extra Photoshop curve to "repair" this, and it
> >worked quite well. 
> >But now, 3 weeks later, it happens again! Again the prints and 
step 
> >wedge have changed! I don't want to go one and one adjusting each 
> >time, because it is a lot of work. And it is very frustating to 
know 
> >that your results are not consistent.
> >
> >
> >Now, how can it be that inks change tone? I could think of some 
> >reasons:
> >
> >-they changed the receipe, down in the factory. By mistake or on 
> >purpose. Can that be?
> >
> >-the inks have got too old. They are about a year old, I guess. 
> >Possible?
> >
> >Is anyone familiar with this problem? And what should I do about 
it, 
> >because it drives me nuts?
> >
> >All the time I've been using an Epson 1160 with B&W Sundance
> >Neutral Warm Inks (formerly PiezographyBW), and use the Photoshop 
> >curve that Paul Roark kindly provided for this inkset. 
> >
> >
> >Thanks in advance.
> >
> >Igor Wesdorp
> >Amsterdam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> >
> >Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep them short.
> >- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from the membership without notice.
> >- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may 
be removed from the membership.
> >- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and
Guidelines" 
in the Files section:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> >BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO GROUP 
SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT 
LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF 
SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

> > 
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >

The pigments can settle, if you haven't been printing regularly. The 
symptom of this is that the prints look lighter and fuzzier. It usually 
takes weeks of inactivity for this to be a problem though. The cure is 
to shake the carts and make a few prints, then things should be working 
again.

Other than that, I'd call your supplier and ask.

--
Hogarth Hughes


igorw2001 wrote:

>I mean the NEW prints looked bad. The "old" (couple of days or 
>weeks) were fine. That can not have anything to do with fading.
>  
>

Hogarth, I followed your advice and shook the carts. After that and 
after making a few "flush" prints, the prints had regained their 
former quality.
So that is it: the pigments drop to the bottom or start to float and 
are not evenly distributed through the fluid anymore. Why haven't I 
read about this before? Is it not a common problem? Or does it happen 
to Sundance inks only?

Thanks for the tip!

Igor






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hogarth Hughes 
<hogarth@s...> wrote:
> The pigments can settle, if you haven't been printing regularly. 
The 
> symptom of this is that the prints look lighter and fuzzier. It 
usually 
> takes weeks of inactivity for this to be a problem though. The cure 
is 
> to shake the carts and make a few prints, then things should be 
working 

> again.
> 
> Other than that, I'd call your supplier and ask.
> 
> --
> Hogarth Hughes
> 
> 
> igorw2001 wrote:
> 
> >I mean the NEW prints looked bad. The "old" (couple of days or 
> >weeks) were fine. That can not have anything to do with fading.
> >  
> >

Settling seems to be common to all pigment inks. As manufacturers 
continue to make the pigment particles smaller and smaller, they stay in 
suspension longer and longer. But eventually they settle. This is 
particularly aggravating in the big machines which have long ink lines 
running from the carts to the heads. It's really hard to shake up ink in 
a 2mm tube. You have to flush the lines either by actual flushing or by 
printing. Either way is a PITA.

Glad you are happily printing again.
--
Hogarth Hughes


igorw2001 wrote:

>Hogarth, I followed your advice and shook the carts. After that and 
>after making a few "flush" prints, the prints had regained their 
>former quality.
>So that is it: the pigments drop to the bottom or start to float and 
>are not evenly distributed through the fluid anymore. Why haven't I 
>read about this before? Is it not a common problem? Or does it happen 
>to Sundance inks only?
>
>Thanks for the tip!
>
>Igor
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hogarth Hughes 
><hogarth@s...> wrote:
>  
>
>>The pigments can settle, if you haven't been printing regularly. 
>>    
>>
>The 
>  
>
>>symptom of this is that the prints look lighter and fuzzier. It 
>>    
>>
>usually 
>  
>
>>takes weeks of inactivity for this to be a problem though. The cure 
>>    
>>
>is 
>  
>
>>to shake the carts and make a few prints, then things should be 
>>    
>>
>working 
>  
>
>>again.
>>
>>Other than that, I'd call your supplier and ask.
>>
>>--
>>Hogarth Hughes
>>
>>
>>igorw2001 wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I mean the NEW prints looked bad. The "old" (couple of days or 
>>>weeks) were fine. That can not have anything to do with fading.
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>  
>