Digital BW, The Print

I've been doing some digital stuff on my 980 and 2000P, but I'm 
mostly a BW photographer and I have 25 years of film to work with 
(alot of my work was 8" x 10" contact printing- it's tuff to 
approach that kind of tonal quality).  Trying to print BW on the 
2000P is sad- I believe the 2200 is possibly a good choice because 
of the grey ink cartidge.  I've spent alot of time looking at the 
Piezography site, but am thinking the UC 7 color system might work 
(or MIS).  I have a full time day job, but I'm starting to get back 
into photography and need advice on what setup works well for BW.  
I'm seeing used 2200's for $400 and up- I don't feel like commiting 
to a 4000 at this point because digital BW printing is evolving so 
much.  RIP's?  Thanks alot, Kip (714 337-0961, SoCal area).

> From: kipduff [mailto:kipduff@...]
>
> I've been doing some digital stuff on my 980 and 2000P, but I'm
> mostly a BW photographer and I have 25 years of film to work with
> (alot of my work was 8" x 10" contact printing- it's tuff to
> approach that kind of tonal quality).  Trying to print BW on the
> 2000P is sad- I believe the 2200 is possibly a good choice because
> of the grey ink cartidge.  I've spent alot of time looking at the
> Piezography site, but am thinking the UC 7 color system might work
> (or MIS).  I have a full time day job, but I'm starting to get back
> into photography and need advice on what setup works well for BW.
> I'm seeing used 2200's for $400 and up- I don't feel like commiting
> to a 4000 at this point because digital BW printing is evolving so
> much.  RIP's?  Thanks alot, Kip (714 337-0961, SoCal area).

There is a lot of discussion of this in the archives of this group. I
suggest skimming it. The 2200 isn't quite a plug-and-play B&W solution. You
can print black-only, but it only uses the dark black ink so the results are
a tad grainy, and the ink has a warm cast. Or, you can print B&W using the
stock color inks and Epson profiles, in which case you will see faint but
stubborn color casts at certain gray levels, and and you'll be plagued by
mild metamerism issues. Or, you can buy a RIP that does a better job of
linearizing and balancing the color inks. Or, you can install a third party
hextone inkset and give up the ability to print color, but you can already
do that with the 2000P.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

>...Trying to print BW on the 2000P is sad- 

With the Epson Archival pigs, I'd agree.  However, as I write this I'm
making curves to run the 2000P with MIS UT-FS.  The 2000P is performing
excellently so far.  This means you can get state-of-the-art, archival
digital B&W from your old 2000P.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kipduff"
<kipduff@e...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I've been doing some digital stuff on my 980 and 2000P, but I'm 
> mostly a BW photographer and I have 25 years of film to work with 
> (alot of my work was 8" x 10" contact printing- it's tuff to 
> approach that kind of tonal quality).  Trying to print BW on the 
> 2000P is sad- I believe the 2200 is possibly a good choice because 
> of the grey ink cartidge.  

It does NOT have a gray cartridge.  It has a "light black" cartridge
which turns out to be a sort of sepia color.

The 2200 out of the box is incapable of making a decent black and
white print.  It suffers from a problem called metamerism, which means
that the color cast of it's "gray" values shift de[pending on the
light source - for instance they same image might look pinkish under
"daylight" fluorescent light and greenish under sunlight.

There are various solutions people use to get around this - read the
archives in this group to get a flavor of them.  

> Thanks alot, Kip (714 337-0961, SoCal area).

You're new at this internet stuff, aren't you?   You really shouldn't
give out your phone number on a public forum like thius.

Hi, Kip.  I have a 2200 with the UC factory inks and get good mono prints,
with a couple of caveats.  First, I wasn't able to get acceptable b&w until
I used the separate ImagePrint RIP ($500).  There are other choices out
there, but I like IP since I can print color and b&w, and they have a lot of
decent paper profiles.  I'm into easy and low hassle, leaving more time for
taking photos.  For me the $500 was a bargain in terms of saving time.  The
other is that this pertains to matte papers, like water color papers but
with an inkjet receptor coating.  Insofar as I know (and I would certainly
like to know otherwise), there is no present way to get a semi-gloss print
comparable to air-dried fiber darkroom paper.  All the gloss and semi-gloss
papers I have tried look like the lame darkroom RC papers.  As if that's not
bad enough, the 2200 pigment inks build up on the surface of the gloss paper
resulting in a feature known as "bronzing".  Offsetting that, the best matte
papers such as Photo Rag and Arches Infinity are great and have their own
appeal, especially once behind glass.

It's great that you have the LF negs.  My background was also with 8x10 and
4x5 field cameras, and those negs make excellent inkjet prints.  They won't
go to waste!  I also have a full-time+ day job, so don't print but every
week or so.  Against clear warnings I bought a continuous ink system from
MIS, and sure enough it wound up in the trash after a few months from
clogging.  I would stick with prefilled cartridges or OEM.  Hope this helps
a little.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: kipduff [mailto:kipduff@...] 
> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 2:16 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Is Epson 2200 good choice?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been doing some digital stuff on my 980 and 2000P, but 
> I'm mostly a BW photographer and I have 25 years of film to 
> work with (alot of my work was 8" x 10" contact printing- 
> it's tuff to approach that kind of tonal quality).  Trying to 
> print BW on the 2000P is sad- I believe the 2200 is possibly 
> a good choice because of the grey ink cartidge.  I've spent 
> alot of time looking at the Piezography site, but am thinking 
> the UC 7 color system might work (or MIS).  I have a full 
> time day job, but I'm starting to get back into photography 
> and need advice on what setup works well for BW.  
> I'm seeing used 2200's for $400 and up- I don't feel like 
> commiting to a 4000 at this point because digital BW printing 
> is evolving so much.  RIP's?  Thanks alot, Kip (714 337-0961, 
> SoCal area).

At 09:31 AM Monday 10/11/04, you wrote:
>as I write this I'm making curves to run the 2000P with MIS UT-FS.  The 2000P is performing excellently so far.

Paul,
do you know if the UT-FS ink will be available in pre-filled carts for the 2000P?

thanks,
Richard  
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com

   "Three may keep a secret, if two are dead."
   --Benjamin Franklin

> From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
>
> With the Epson Archival pigs, I'd agree.  However, as I write this I'm
> making curves to run the 2000P with MIS UT-FS.  The 2000P is performing
> excellently so far.  This means you can get state-of-the-art, archival
> digital B&W from your old 2000P.

Is that with a CIS, or are they selling their ink in 2000P carts now? Or are
you popping chips into 1280 carts?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Because the 2000P carts are the same as the 1280, 1270, & 1290 carts, MIS
can pre-fill the carts and probably make a reasonable return on the effort.
(Actually, the problem is that MIS sends the carts out to another company
for filling.  More volume means a better price.)  The 2000P takes a unique
chip, but they are readily available.

So, bottom line, MIS will soon have pre-filled 2000P FS & FSN carts for the
2000P, 1270, 1280, and 1290.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul D. DeRocco [mailto:pderocco@...] 
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 4:45 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Is Epson 2200 good choice?


> From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
>
> With the Epson Archival pigs, I'd agree.  However, as I write this I'm
> making curves to run the 2000P with MIS UT-FS.  The 2000P is performing
> excellently so far.  This means you can get state-of-the-art, archival
> digital B&W from your old 2000P.

Is that with a CIS, or are they selling their ink in 2000P carts now? Or are
you popping chips into 1280 carts?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...m.com




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> From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
>
> Because the 2000P carts are the same as the 1280, 1270, & 1290 carts, MIS
> can pre-fill the carts and probably make a reasonable return on
> the effort.
> (Actually, the problem is that MIS sends the carts out to another company
> for filling.  More volume means a better price.)  The 2000P takes a unique
> chip, but they are readily available.
>
> So, bottom line, MIS will soon have pre-filled 2000P FS & FSN
> carts for the
> 2000P, 1270, 1280, and 1290.

The question is whether they are going to put the 2000P chips in, and
provide an easy way to reset them.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Others may disagree or have different thoughts but to me the big advantage
of the 2200 vs other less expensive printers (e.g. the 1280) is the
"archival" UC inks in the 2200 for color printing. If you're going to black
and white only using MIS or Piezography inks that advantage disappears and
the 1280 becomes a very viable choice at about half the price and no need
for a RIP. If you're going to use the UC inks in the 2200 for black and
white printing I'll think you'll have to do something  else e.g. add a RIP,
print black only using the MIS Eboni black, etc. etc.  I own both printers,
both do an excellent job for the szie prints they're capable of making (I
have MIS VM inks in the 1280, to be replaced by UT2 as soon as I run out of
VM,  and use the 2200 for black-only with MIS Eboni black and the occasional
color print).

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "kipduff" <kipduff@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 3:15 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Is Epson 2200 good choice?

I've been doing some digital stuff on my 980 and 2000P, but I'm
mostly a BW photographer and I have 25 years of film to work with
(alot of my work was 8" x 10" contact printing- it's tuff to
approach that kind of tonal quality).  Trying to print BW on the
2000P is sad- I believe the 2200 is possibly a good choice because
of the grey ink cartidge.  I've spent alot of time looking at the
Piezography site, but am thinking the UC 7 color system might work
(or MIS).  I have a full time day job, but I'm starting to get back
into photography and need advice on what setup works well for BW.
I'm seeing used 2200's for $400 and up- I don't feel like commiting
to a 4000 at this point because digital BW printing is evolving so
much.  RIP's?  Thanks alot, Kip (714 337-0961, SoCal area).

Richard,

>do you know if the UT-FS ink will be available in pre-filled carts 
>for the 2000P?

Yes.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
>
> >do you know if the UT-FS ink will be available in pre-filled carts
> >for the 2000P?
>
> Yes.

Is that "yes, I know if it will be available" or "yes, it will be
available"? ;-)

I don't see anything on the web site yet. Any time frame? I'd love to
resurrect my idle 2000P, but don't have the patience to figure out about
chip swapping and resetting.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Thanks- that's good info: the guys at Calumet here were touting the 
2200 as good BW with UltraChrome.  I'm going to study the MIS 
website: it sounds like I should get with a black/3 grey or black/5 
gray setup.  Is there a 13" wide model that you would recommend?  
There may still be new $200 2000P's around but I'd be willing to 
spend more if it makes a difference.  It sounds like the 2000P MIS 
setup might not be out for a while.  Thanks- kip. 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson" 
<pnweb@s...> wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kipduff"
> <kipduff@e...> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I've been doing some digital stuff on my 980 and 2000P, but I'm 
> > mostly a BW photographer and I have 25 years of film to work 
with 
> > (alot of my work was 8" x 10" contact printing- it's tuff to 
> > approach that kind of tonal quality).  Trying to print BW on the 
> > 2000P is sad- I believe the 2200 is possibly a good choice 
because 
> > of the grey ink cartidge.  
> 
> It does NOT have a gray cartridge.  It has a "light black" 
cartridge
> which turns out to be a sort of sepia color.
> 
> The 2200 out of the box is incapable of making a decent black and
> white print.  It suffers from a problem called metamerism, which 
means
> that the color cast of it's "gray" values shift de[pending on the
> light source - for instance they same image might look pinkish 
under
> "daylight" fluorescent light and greenish under sunlight.
> 
> There are various solutions people use to get around this - read 
the
> archives in this group to get a flavor of them.  
> 
> > Thanks alot, Kip (714 337-0961, SoCal area).
> 
> You're new at this internet stuff, aren't you?   You really 
shouldn't
> give out your phone number on a public forum like thius.

Thanks- I recognize your name from the MIS site.  I'm goin to study 
the site and look up the UT-FS setup.  It looks like the 2200 and 
2000P are common and known printers- I need to look at the 
discussions before I buy a second 13" wide printer (or I could just 
convert the 2000P to BW).  I'm guessing you think the UT-FS is the 
way to go because that's the first one you're setting up (there's 
alot of choices at MIS).  Do you have a favorite 13" wide printer?  
Thanks again- I'm going to your website now.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >...Trying to print BW on the 2000P is sad- 
> 
> With the Epson Archival pigs, I'd agree.  However, as I write this 
I'm
> making curves to run the 2000P with MIS UT-FS.  The 2000P is 
performing
> excellently so far.  This means you can get state-of-the-art, 
archival

> digital B&W from your old 2000P.  
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Is the 1280 a 4 color or six color printer?  It seems to me black 
and 3 greys is plenty and maybe better because it's simpler.  BO 
does'nt sound like it it would have rich tones.  Thanks, Kip.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "B. Campbell" 
<bellis60@v...> wrote:
> Others may disagree or have different thoughts but to me the big 
advantage
> of the 2200 vs other less expensive printers (e.g. the 1280) is the
> "archival" UC inks in the 2200 for color printing. If you're going 
to black
> and white only using MIS or Piezography inks that advantage 
disappears and
> the 1280 becomes a very viable choice at about half the price and 
no need
> for a RIP. If you're going to use the UC inks in the 2200 for 
black and
> white printing I'll think you'll have to do something  else e.g. 
add a RIP,
> print black only using the MIS Eboni black, etc. etc.  I own both 
printers,
> both do an excellent job for the szie prints they're capable of 
making (I
> have MIS VM inks in the 1280, to be replaced by UT2 as soon as I 
run out of
> VM,  and use the 2200 for black-only with MIS Eboni black and the 
occasional

> color print).
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "kipduff" <kipduff@e...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 3:15 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Is Epson 2200 good choice?
> 
> I've been doing some digital stuff on my 980 and 2000P, but I'm
> mostly a BW photographer and I have 25 years of film to work with
> (alot of my work was 8" x 10" contact printing- it's tuff to
> approach that kind of tonal quality).  Trying to print BW on the
> 2000P is sad- I believe the 2200 is possibly a good choice because
> of the grey ink cartidge.  I've spent alot of time looking at the
> Piezography site, but am thinking the UC 7 color system might work
> (or MIS).  I have a full time day job, but I'm starting to get back
> into photography and need advice on what setup works well for BW.
> I'm seeing used 2200's for $400 and up- I don't feel like commiting
> to a 4000 at this point because digital BW printing is evolving so
> much.  RIP's?  Thanks alot, Kip (714 337-0961, SoCal area).

>... I'm going to study the [MIS] site and look up the UT-FS setup. 

The hextone FS printers are probably not listed yet.  They should be getting
their pre-filled FS carts for the 1279, 1280, 1290 and 2000P soon.

>It looks like the 2200 and 2000P are common and known printers- 

I was told there are a lot of 2000P printers that are available for cheap.
So, it seemed like a good way to get an affordable 13" printer out there.

>... I could just convert the 2000P to BW

Exactly.  There are apparently a lot of people like you have these things
sitting around.

>I'm guessing you think the UT-FS is the 
>way to go because that's the first one you're setting up 

I probably will not set up the variable-tone inkset in the 2000P.  So, there
will be warm UT-FS and neutral UT-FSN monotone inksets.

(there's a lot of choices at MIS).

Stay with the UT family.  All of the others are obsolete.

>  Do you have a favorite 13" wide printer?  

The 2200 is probably the most capable 13" printer.  However, on matte paper,
I'm getting a better dmax on the 2000P.

>Thanks again- I'm going to your website now.

I'll probably start posting the 2000P information and curves tomorrow.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
____________________________

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >...Trying to print BW on the 2000P is sad- 
> 
> With the Epson Archival pigs, I'd agree.  However, as I write this 
I'm
> making curves to run the 2000P with MIS UT-FS.  The 2000P is 
performing
> excellently so far.  This means you can get state-of-the-art, 
archival
> digital B&W from your old 2000P.  
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
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