Digital BW, The Print

Did anyone see anything exciting in regard to the ultra-chrome black and white output at 
the Javits Center? I' considering using a 9600 for dual purposes a a couple of months and 
wondered what the state of Ultra-Chrome with rips is now. Are there guys out there using 
this successfully with great d-max?

john

John  -
 
What paper(s) are you considering, and what do you consider 'great' dmax?
 
Tom Baker

john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote:


Did anyone see anything exciting in regard to the ultra-chrome black and white output at 
the Javits Center? I' considering using a 9600 for dual purposes a a couple of months and 
wondered what the state of Ultra-Chrome with rips is now. Are there guys out there using 
this successfully with great d-max?

john



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As for papers  - I use Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, German Etching, William Turner, Somerset 
Velvet, and Legion Matte. Well, I'm satisfied with very good d-max appraoching but not 
necessarily equaling Quad tone carbon pigment as in UT or Piezzo . 

John

>  
> What paper(s) are you considering, and what do you consider 'great' dmax?
>  
> Tom Baker
> 
>

John  -
 
The only paper on your list that I use is the Somerset Velvet.  I use it for bothe b&w and color with Imageprint on my 9600.  I am more than happy with the output.  I have visually compared the IP output on EEM with that of the MIS inks, and am still more than pleased with the IP solution.  Of course, there's the cost of IP.
 
Tom Baker

john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote:


As for papers - I use Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, German Etching, William Turner, Somerset 
Velvet, and Legion Matte. Well, I'm satisfied with very good d-max appraoching but not 
necessarily equaling Quad tone carbon pigment as in UT or Piezzo . 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John,

I did wonderful B&W prints with UC on Hahnemuhle Durer, Turner and Photorag without Rip. But not enough to pretend that all kind of picture would come out that nice.
As for Rip, I am a bit puzzled by this at the moment, because the main purpose of Rip is to render vectorial datas correctly. Pictures aren't vectorial but a Rip has some other assets that printers drivers don't have.... but it will depend on the Rip and nothing can help to choose witch one do what better or lesser. I didn't read yet anything on Rip's B&W rendition. The datas translation  made by the driver to the printer language is probably rough and Rip are supposed to do it better. Considering the Rip price and the dark shadows over their specifications, I think it's a Rip off :-)
Some other softwares, witch don't present themselves as Rip, might improve printing a lot, like Qimage for example.
If you liked what you have seen in the Javits Center then go ahead.

Michel

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: john dean 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 7:37 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Photo Expo



  Did anyone see anything exciting in regard to the ultra-chrome black and white output at 
  the Javits Center? I' considering using a 9600 for dual purposes a a couple of months and 
  wondered what the state of Ultra-Chrome with rips is now. Are there guys out there using 
  this successfully with great d-max?

  john


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As noted in an earlier post I stopped in at Epson and gave them a bit of stick re B&W.  
They were scolding a guy when he enquired about using third party inks and I piped up 
that Epson needed to take better notice of the B&W community if they were to expect that 
nobody would explore different (ie quad) inks.  Their response was to show me a print on 
Premium Luster with the UCs and the Colorburst RIP.  It looked dead neutral and I could 
not see any bronzing.  However, as Carl noted you can demo the RIP as he did on a 4000 
and found that for B&W it didn't offer anything more than QTR and bronzing was still an 
issue.  I would have liked to have gone back to Epson yesterday and pushed a bit harder re 
the bronzing issue but did not get time to head back to the expo.  (As a general rule 
though most of the reps there didn't appear to be that up to speed - certainly way behind 
this list.  For example the Nikon guy couldn't tell me anything about the 9000 scanner that 
wasn't written on the brochure in front of him.)  The Epson guys also commented "you 
know we don't make any money on the printers".  I got the sense they are only interested 
in producing quality printers and roughly covering their costs here, average at best RIPs 
with any pro need effectively outsourced, and selling a lot of high margin paper and ink.  I 
suspect any driver-related development requests will in large part fall on deaf ears.  This 
community (or independent compaanies), rather than anyone at Epson, will in my opinion 
lead the development of RIPs for B&W.  Any ink or paper development by Epson which 
benefits B&W will purely be a bi-product of their work in the colour domain. Which leads 
one to ask if/(why) bronzing is (not) an issue for colour on RC papers?

Cheers

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> Did anyone see anything exciting in regard to the ultra-chrome black and white output 
at 
> the Javits Center? I' considering using a 9600 for dual purposes a a couple of months 
and 
> wondered what the state of Ultra-Chrome with rips is now. Are there guys out there 
using 

> this successfully with great d-max?
> 
> john

Which leads 
> one to ask if/(why) bronzing is (not) an issue for colour on RC 
papers?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve

I would also add the question - what is bronzing, such that it can be 
eliminated by a RIP? What is it that the RIP does in these 
circumsatnces?
John

Bronzing, or gloss differential as some call it, it an issue with Premium Glossy and similar 
glossy media with the original Epson color pigment inkset and most likely Ultra-Chrome 
color also. This is why I don't use glossy papers for color work at all either. Actually if you 
look at Premium Luster from the side you will see this gloss difference  also. Hell, I even 
see it with color prints from my 1270 inkset on the glossy and all the rc media.

john

Scott,

It is not a big deal as you said, actually I find the effect very interesting and I work on ENHANCING it instead of reducing. That's the reason why I did ask here what paper any of the participant of this forum found giving the strongest effect.
I had only two answers ..... nevermind....busy they are to get rid off it. I worked my way in this search and already get gorgeous prints which seems to be printed with gold and silver inks when you see them under certains angles. Straight front they are just B&W, I say just because it seems a lot less interesting since I work on this project. I would like to have this bronzing straight front as well.
The search lies not only on papers and inks but also in the type and treatment of the picture.

If someone else goes this route and have already interesting results, I will be please to hear from you.

Michel Braud

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: scott_now_coming 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 6:39 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: B&W with C86 and MIS inks - unattractive sheen - advice?



  It's bronzing.

  I haven't had the problem when the print's hanging on a wall. Only 
  when I've held the print at some unusual angle have I noticed the 
  bronzing.

  Paul and others here use Premier Art Shield to coat the print and 
  reduce (and in some cases, eliminate)bronzing and to protect the 
  print.

  I haven't used PA Shield (yet).

  Maybe you should hang a print on a wall and look at it from different 
  angles and see what you think. It might not be that big a deal.


  Scott


  ---

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bronzing does sort of look "metallic". 

I always thought it wouls be cool to have a "metallic" paper.

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sinwen" 
<sinwen@f...> wrote:
> Scott,
> 
> It is not a big deal as you said, actually I find the effect very 
interesting and I work on ENHANCING it instead of reducing. That's 
the reason why I did ask here what paper any of the participant of 
this forum found giving the strongest effect.
> I had only two answers ..... nevermind....busy they are to get rid 
off it. I worked my way in this search and already get gorgeous 
prints which seems to be printed with gold and silver inks when you 
see them under certains angles. Straight front they are just B&W, I 
say just because it seems a lot less interesting since I work on this 
project. I would like to have this bronzing straight front as well.
> The search lies not only on papers and inks but also in the type 
and treatment of the picture.
> 
> If someone else goes this route and have already interesting 
results, I will be please to hear from you.
> 
> Michel Braud
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: scott_now_coming 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 6:39 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: B&W with C86 and MIS inks - 
unattractive sheen - advice?
> 
> 
> 
>   It's bronzing.
> 
>   I haven't had the problem when the print's hanging on a wall. 
Only 
>   when I've held the print at some unusual angle have I noticed the 
>   bronzing.
> 
>   Paul and others here use Premier Art Shield to coat the print and 
>   reduce (and in some cases, eliminate)bronzing and to protect the 
>   print.
> 
>   I haven't used PA Shield (yet).
> 
>   Maybe you should hang a print on a wall and look at it from 
different 

>   angles and see what you think. It might not be that big a deal.
> 
> 
>   Scott
> 
> 
>   ---
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> 
> Bronzing does sort of look "metallic". 
> 
> I always thought it wouls be cool to have a "metallic" paper.

This is a variation on a trick we use with laser printers. It works with some inks, but I haven't ever tried it with ultrachrome. If it works, it goes something like this...

Build a QTR curve to print in only yellow, on a matte paper, using about twice as much ink as you need. Then apply powdered brass or aluminum and heat. You can get metalic transfer paper which is pre-coated with powdered metals. Apply it to the print in a heat press or with an iron.

Have fun...

That sounds interesting.

Thanks,
Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor" 
<wiz@n...> wrote:
> 
> --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Bronzing does sort of look "metallic". 
> > 
> > I always thought it wouls be cool to have a "metallic" paper.
> 
> This is a variation on a trick we use with laser printers. It works 
with some inks, but I haven't ever tried it with ultrachrome. If it 
works, it goes something like this...
> 
> Build a QTR curve to print in only yellow, on a matte paper, using 
about twice as much ink as you need. Then apply powdered brass or 
aluminum and heat. You can get metalic transfer paper which is pre-
coated with powdered metals. Apply it to the print in a heat press or 
with an iron.
> 
> Have fun...

Is there a difference between Ilford Smooth Pearl and Ilford Classic Pearl? I just printed a B&W image on ICP using QTR on an Epson 4000 and it looks great to me. I don't know that I've ever seen anything that I would call "bronzing" with any of the papers and printers I've used. I've certainly seen metamerism from my 1280 but I wouldn't call that bronzing.

Ian




Message: 18        
   Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:48:17 -0000
   From: "lindstromdick" <d_pics@...>
Subject: B&W on Ilford Smooth Pearl



I have tried to print black/white using the Quad Tone rip with my 
Epson 4000 and Ilford Smooth pearl paper. The B&W was beautiful, but 
the bronzing was severe. Any hints on how to imrove the result?

The Ilford Classic is for dyes.  It will probably not dry.  The Smooth is
what we need for pigments.

For less bronzing, try Epson Premium Semimatte, or Costco Kirkland Signature
Pre Glossy for 8x10.  Epson Glossy Photo paper is the only one that has
virtually no reflective artifacts without either a spray or glop.  However,
it's only letter size, a bit flimsy, and doesn't have the best dmax.

PremierArt Print Shield spray will get rid of bronzing.  Glop will get rid
of it on the best papers and reduce it on many others.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

__________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: photoian@... [mailto:photoian@...] 
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 4:38 PM
To: Group
Subject: [Digital BW] Bronzing


Is there a difference between Ilford Smooth Pearl and Ilford Classic Pearl?
I just printed a B&W image on ICP using QTR on an Epson 4000 and it looks
great to me. I don't know that I've ever seen anything that I would call
"bronzing" with any of the papers and printers I've used. I've certainly
seen metamerism from my 1280 but I wouldn't call that bronzing.

Ian




Message: 18        
   Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:48:17 -0000
   From: "lindstromdick" <d_pics@...>
Subject: B&W on Ilford Smooth Pearl



I have tried to print black/white using the Quad Tone rip with my 
Epson 4000 and Ilford Smooth pearl paper. The B&W was beautiful, but 
the bronzing was severe. Any hints on how to imrove the result?



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> The Ilford Classic is for dyes.  It will probably not dry.  The 
Smooth is
> what we need for pigments.
> 

Paul,

I have been playing around with UC inks on my 4000 and the Ilford 
Classic papers (designed for dyes - swellable polymer).  You are 
absolutely right that straight out of the printer they are indeed 
very easy to smear.  But given an hour or so, they are dry.  Their 
behaviour is exactly the same as dye inks (ala 1280).  The newer HP 
Prememium Plus papers are also sweaable polymer types, but nice and 
thick at 11.5 mils, and they behave the same as Ilford Classic and 
Epson Colorlife.  These papers definitely bronze less than micro-
ceramic papers.  Too bad they are no water proof.

Shilesh

What paper type and paper? Black and white or color print? What areas are you seeing the bronzing in, and from what angles?

C. David Tobie
Senior Project Manager
Workflow & Color

Durst Phototechnik 
AG
Julius-Durst-Strasse 4
39042 Brixen, Italy
P.: +39 04 72 81 01 11
www.durst-group.com
cdtobie@durst.it

skype: CDTobie

> On Dec 4, 2016, at 8:34 PM, over40_98@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> I have a Epson 1800 printer.  I just printed a large 13 X 19 picture and I see a considerable amount of bronzing!  Is there a way to avoid bronzing using Epson Inks?
> 
> Joe Chandler
> 
> 
> 
>

I'll try printing without the gloss optimizer!  Thank you very much.  

Joseph Chandler
 

    On Sunday, December 4, 2016 9:20 PM, "Paul Roark roark.paul@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

     The R1800 has a gloss optimizer in it.  I always assumed that was there for not only the paper white gloss differential, but also to hike the bronzing, at least to some extent.  With the MIS inks we used in the 1800, that is how I used the MIS glop.
I suspect there is a driver check box that turns the GO on and off.
Paulwww.PaulRoark.com 
On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 5:34 PM, over40_98@yahoo.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

     I have a Epson 1800 printer.  I just printed a large 13 X 19 picture and I see a considerable amount of bronzing!  Is there a way to avoid bronzing using Epson Inks?

Joe Chandler

Yes, there are remedies. The remedy is to use the K7 curves I built for the HD inks downloadable here: https://piezography.com/downloads/piezography-community-edition <https://piezography.com/downloads/piezography-community-edition>

I made these curves using a totally different (and weird) curve builder that I built specifically for fixing bronzing along the linear slope from dark through light then I used two curves which were built for opposite curve bronzing. It gets more complicated than that but long story short, Richard’s curve creator does not have the ability to calculate bronzing corrections. You’ll notice (for example) that the Cyan (shade 2) on the HDPK master curve actually follows the PK curve and is LESS than it. The Shade 2 acts as a bronzing minimizer.

Use the HDPK master curve for your ink-set and gloss optimize with 30000 GO curve to start. If you have Piezography Professional Edition you can use the curve blender tool there to also correct for gloss bronzing by “blending” the normal PK master and HD-PK master quad together as well. This allows for bronze elimination tweaks per paper. This is totally unique to Piezography Professional Toolset and is not anywhere else.

Best,
Walker

> On Sep 12, 2017, at 10:48 AM, jthacker@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> I have a K7 printer with over gloss. It also has the lastest HD inks from inkjet mall. I'm using Richard Boutwell's QTP software to make a profile for Harman Gloss Baryta. I am using the over gloss set at 3000. After making the profile (used a curve and linearization) and printing test images with the over gloss, I am seeing bronzing. I have not yet smoothed the profile or used QLin. Are there any remedies to eliminate the bronzing or reduce it?
> Please advise.
> Cheers,
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Not sure why it’s backordered as it’s a software. I will investigate on that.

Related to the master curves, they are in >Applications>Piezography>Curves>(your printer folder) after installing.

The curves are named K7-(inkset)-PKHD-MASTER.quad

Best,
Walker

> On Sep 12, 2017, at 11:26 AM, jthacker@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Walker,
> Thank you for the information. I did not find the paper I'm using at the link you provided. Nor did I find the HDPK master curve.
> Also, I see the PPE is backorder. When will it be available?
> Cheers,
> John
> 
>

OK thanks
 Cheers, John 

    On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 8:36 AM, "'forums@...' forums@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

     Not sure why it’s backordered as it’s a software. I will investigate on that.
Related to the master curves, they are in >Applications>Piezography>Curves>(your printer folder) after installing.
The curves are named K7-(inkset)-PKHD-MASTER.quad
Best,Walker



On Sep 12, 2017, at 11:26 AM, jthacker@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Walker,
Thank you for the information. I did not find the paper I'm using at the link you provided. Nor did I find the HDPK master curve.
Also, I see the PPE is backorder. When will it be available?
Cheers,
John

Also, regardless of spray or printed GO, you’ll want to use the new curves. They maximize dMax too.

Best,
W

> On Sep 12, 2017, at 11:41 AM, John Thacker jthacker@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> OK thanks
>  
> Cheers, John
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 8:36 AM, "'forums@walkerblackwell.com <mailto:forums@...>' forums@... <mailto:forums@...> [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
>  
> Not sure why it’s backordered as it’s a software. I will investigate on that.
> 
> Related to the master curves, they are in >Applications>Piezography>Curves>(your printer folder) after installing.
> 
> The curves are named K7-(inkset)-PKHD-MASTER.quad
> 
> Best,
> Walker
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 12, 2017, at 11:26 AM, jthacker@... <mailto:jthacker@...> [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Walker,
>> Thank you for the information. I did not find the paper I'm using at the link you provided. Nor did I find the HDPK master curve.
>> Also, I see the PPE is backorder. When will it be available?
>> Cheers,
>> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
>