Hi John,
There are three great resources to learn about how these wonderful
machines work. The first is experience. The second is experience. The
third is the good people like Ernst and John V and a host of others
who have been down this road before.
Please note that I do not include Epson in that group of resources
becauser although their manuals are helpful, they entrust all their
support to their authorized service people. The authorized service
people, allowing for some exceptions that I may never have heard
about, know absolutely nothing. Sometimes they get lucky, but
generally they will charge more than the cost of replacing your
printer to go through and rebuild it piece-by-piece and
visit-after-visit just HOPING to get lucky.
At no time to they guarantee what they do will solve your problem
because they don't really know how to solve your problem -- just
replace parts and write VERY big invoices. So you were wise not to
call them because the better choice is always to just buy a new
printer or a Jaguar, either of which you could easily afford by the
time you get through paying for their service calls ;>)
OK, end of rant. I commend your persistence because it's the
pre-requisite to success in this endeavor. Therefore, if you don't
mind let's go back and apply our collective logic to the situation.
However, this is going to take a few minutes of reading so get
comfortable, pick up a "cool one" of your choice and let's chat:
1. If I understand this correctly, there was nothing wrong with the
printer before and you were a happy camper printing with Lyson inks.
Your heads weren't bad, you were having no other symptoms that they
were bad, and life was good. Your prints looked beautiful, but you
were ready to try something else. If we can take that as a starting
point, let's go on -- if not, please fill in the blanks...
2. You wanted to try Piezo inks, so you ran a set of Generations
cleaning carts through the system and loaded your Piezos. Then, before
you could say "KK2 Cleaning Cycle" three times quickly, you were in
"goo land" and had no output from your printheads. Are we still on
track with the experience? If so...
3. We can safely assume two things: first, in fairness to Jon, you
would have probably had this experience regardless of what pigment
inkset you dropped into the system after the Lyson inks. That's
because of the difference in the ph and chemistry between Lyson's and
almost anyone else's ink formula. The result is, with rare exception,
"incompatible". That means goo and clogs and utterances like
"oh-my-God-why'd-I-do-this?". Second, the Generations "Jet Jrano" may
or may not have been the best choice for flushing the system
(chemistry wise) but regardless, the steps you follow to flush out
Lyson inks need to be fairly thorough
4. This now is more of a retrospective question/commentary that may
tell us why you ran into the problems even though you did the Jet
Jrano flush and where we need to go from here:
- When you did this process, exactly what did you do? Mediastreet
recommends that you put in their cleaning carts, print a purge pattern
until the old ink colors start to become very faint and then put in
your new carts. Was this how you flushed?
- If so, there are some assumptions made here that could be where
your problems really started; the above procedure for flushing (as
printed on the Mediastreet Website) is reasonable to ensure that the
previous ink is either "almost" completely eliminated from the lines
or at least sufficiently "chemically neautralized" enough to cause no
harm. If there is enough "Jet Jrano" flowing through the lines that
your "purge printout" with the old inks is becoming faint (you did use
their purge pattern, didn't you?) -- then when you put your new inks
into the system there is still a bunch of "Jet Jrano" in your lines
and that is chemically neutral (in theory) so won't interact with your
new ink and by the time the balance of the "Jet Jrano" flows through
the feed tubes with the new ink behind it, the balance of the old ink
should be gone, your heads should be clear, and everyone lives happily
ever after, yes? (whew!)
- So then... what do we do? Well, we go ahead and print our purge
patterns until the new ink is flowing full density through the lines
and heads and do a nozzle check and... this is where it gets
interesting... we give a sigh of relief and since it's probably late
at night, we get ready for a few hours of well earned rest. So we shut
down our system, which in turn -- parks our heads!
- And where do we park our heads? Well, right squarely on the pads
that were previously filled with Lyson Ink, yes? (Please stop me here
if you did something else like replaced or cleaned your parking pads
and waste system when you made your ink change, but since you didn't
mention doing so I'm assuming you didn't and nobody really tells you
about this "gotcha").
- Now the old parking pads, along with the wipers, caping station
components, lines, pumps and all that apparatus "south" of the carts
and feedlines and new heads you worked so hard to clean -- are still
soaked with... Lyson Ink, yes? You may have varied from the printed
Mediastreet instructions and done some init or KK2 cleaning cycles
with the "Jet Jrano" still in your system and that may have helped,
but those sponges and all the build-up in the rest of the system
probably didn't get anywhere near the cleaning that your lines and
heads did when you flushed them. (Are we getting close?)
- So at this point, since it's late at night and time to get a few
hours sleep and we've now parked our nicely flushed, clean heads with
new pigment inks in them onto our.... Right! Lyson Ink soaked capping
station pads! (Again, stop me if I'm wrong but this may help the next
person and we can see what else may have caused your problems)
- Now sponges being what they are, and Epson ink systems being prone
to some shifts in "pressure" when the systems are turned on or off, we
can assume that everything within that system (from the "carts all the
way to the flush pad" doesn't just stay where you left them. The
fluids move. It would be nice to think that they only move in one
direction; that is, out of the heads and into the parking pads, etc.
However, that's not likely the case...
- What typically happens is that the heads hit the pads, some of the
new ink does flow onto the pads, things mingle, chemical reactions
occur, and things begin to interact. Your clean Piezo filled heads are
pressed firmly into your Lyson Ink soaked pads and since the system is
shut down there may be a bit of back-force from the wet sponges rather
than a vacuum and and pressure changes in the feedlines and before you
can say whatever expletive you'd like to utter at that moment... well,
it's downhill from there especially because you've probably turned out
the lights for the night and all those ph imbalanced fluids have more
than enough time to demonstrate that they don't like each other by
wicking up into your nice clean print heads and mucking up all your
hard work.
5. OK, so that was kind of a long story and if it's true for you then
we're on to something and if it's not -- well, we may prevent it from
becoming true for someone else who follows in our footsteps. In either
event, here's the upshot:
- Flushing the lines and heads as Mediastreet suggests is good.
However, it doesn't do the whole job as we've just discussed. Piezo
inks hitting Lyson inks in the areas of the capping station and all
places downstream from that point until the fluids exit the printer
into the waste pads -- WILL react and may congeal. It's just the luck
of the draw (or previous bad experience) whether you happened to push
enough cleaning fluid through the rest of the system to neutralize
this or not
- Now the question is: did you?
- If not, then we're back to my comments of last night and the
importance of making sure that a chemically neutral fluid is moving
from cart to waste pad through the entire feed system on it's own
steam (i.e., without syringes or suction or pressurization methods).
If not, then the problem is likely rooted in the windy explaination
above, and we've got to get there first.
6. So that's my suggestion for you today. If the OEM carts and lines
still have ink in them, thats great. But before you try pushing any
more of those fluids through your system, move the heads out of the
capping station, lay down lots of plastic and newspaper, put on the
rubber gloves and eye protection and go to work on everything "south"
of the heads. i.e,...
- if those sponges still had Lyson ink in them, they're probably
mucked up now so you'll want to take some Windex (or your choice of
cleaner) and get them as clear as possible.
- you need to be sure that the other lines and pump are all clear of
residual "goo" from the chemically incompatible inks. You can do this
by soaking the parking pads (get them clean as possible first) and
then turning the pump and watching what hits your waste pads. Try to
get to the same point you did with your ink lines and heads -- that
is, a reasonably clear fluid resembling whatever you put onto the
capping stations -- exiting onto the waste pads.
- if you're seeing a lot of "stuff" in the fluid that is dumping out
the waste tubes, then keep flushing. You may want to follow Ernst's
suggestions here and set this up so the fluids are dropping into a
waste collection system. That way, you're not saturating your waste
pads unnecessarily.
- be careful what you choose for this flush -- while Windex is OK and
tends to be pretty effective for breaking up all kinds of ink clogs,
remember you've got a pumping system with seals and "O" rings in it so
you don't want to let them sit for too long in Windex (just to be on
the safe side). So when things are looking clear, you could do a very
diluted Windex flush or use some distilled water if it won't sit too
long (we don't want things to rust ;>))
7. What now? Well, since you've got Epson ink in the carts and lines
and dampers, you could just "go for it". However, given all this work
you've put into getting things running free and clear "south" of the
capping station, we should probably be cautious. So let's think about
a couple of things:
- since you pulled the ink from the carts into the dampers using a
syringe, if the capping station lines and/or pump were mucked up it
may be that the heads haven't filled. That was one of the great
advantages to what Ernst described about using a "push" rather than a
"pull" of fluids into the ink feed lines -- that the fluid would
definitely and visibly be forced through the heads
- if the previous scenario I described with the Piezo filled heads
and the Lyson soaked pads actually took place, then it's also possible
that your heads have some ink in them but are clogged again. However,
you did say you didn't see even a single drop of ink in your nozzle
checks, so it's not likely that every nozzle is completely plugged.
- that being the case (that the capping-pumping-waste system is now
clear) I'd be tempted to try another KK2 or init cycle. HOWEVER, I'd
feel a lot more comfortable recommending that if you still had a
cleaning solution in your carts and lines rather than Epson OEM ink.
So, I'd have to leave that call up to you.
- if your heads did get clogged again badly, you may need to pull
them out and give them a soaking to break up the incompatible inks. Of
course, be sure you do this carefully so as not to flood the heads and
damage their internal circuitry. And before taking that step, you can
try Ernst's "pressure method" to see if the heads are flowing and if
there is any need to pull them again because that's a "worst case"
John, you've basically entered the "world beyond the manual" quite a
while ago, though there is some information toward the end of the 7000
manual that describes "power-off" testing of the pump system.
To answer your question about whether problems in this area we're
discussing could be the cause of your woes, I'd say a qualified "yes"
but that remains to be seen. (I hate to sound like an Epson repair
guy, but I've just not been there to say with more certainty).
In either event, you still need to go through the steps of flushing
the old Lyson Inks and any clogs that may have formed in your pads and
pumps and all that to make sure that system is clear and doesn't get
damaged by trying to constantly pull against plugged-up lines.
Hope I've not offended anyone by giving such a long response, or put
John D to sleep ;>) I usually try to keep replys short on the forum,
but this is a problem that many people go through and I'm hoping
therefore it's forgiven that I've taken the liberty to be a bit (or a
lot) more wordy. Given how frustrating some of these problems can be,
I've also tried to add a bit of levity to the commentary which of
course, just adds more words.
Therefore, flames and reprimands are gracefully accepted -- as are any
additional suggestions, perspectives, corrections or anything else
that may help John D arrive expediently at his goal...
Thanks, and hope this is helpful.
Richard
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> I really appreciate your expertise and help. You, Ernst, and John
> Vitillo have been invaluable to my understanding of all this
> mechanical stuff.
>
> What you are saying makes a lot of sense to me in reagard to the
> suction of the lines and subsequent ink flow into the heads. If I
> hadn't manually brought the ink up into the dampers with a syringe,
> the hoses might still be empty and full of air.
>
> I am positive that the lines are clear from the carts, which are
> epson dye and good, to the new dampers. What I do not understand is
> how the overflow ink dump lines work that take the excess head
> cleaning ink into the pads below. I want to now go into them and
see
> if they are clogged. I suspect they might be because eventhough
I've
> done numerous initial fills and KK2 procedures there is still
plenty
> of ink in the carts! It would make sense to me that those overflow
> need to be flushed out also but I don't have a clue as to how to do
> that. Is that info described in the manual? If the white lines on
the
> righ end of the printer by the head station ARE clogged,whould that
> stop the heads from filling up too?
>
> Before I decided to install the Piezzo inkset I had used the Lyson
> Quad and Small Gamut inksets in this printer only. I never had a
> problem with them for 3.5 years. They are the only inksets I used
in
> this printer. I had no real cloggs before, but as Jon Cone has
> pointed out, when Lyson inks hit Carbon pigments a stubborn jelly
is
> created that mucks up everything. My Generations carts did't get
rid
> of it all obviously.
>
> I haven't given up on this machine because generally it is like new
> and hasn't been used all that much yet. The wast pads down under
are
> very clean and solid. If I can solve this printer I will have
learned
> a lot and then might consider setting up a used 9500 with the
Piezzo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> inks also.I hope to be the most enthuastic advocate of this process
> in the state of Georgia. But I've got to get some large prints done
> first before I rave about them on my website. The results on my two
> small printers sure have been outstanding to say the least.
>
> Still at it to the bitter end,
>
> John
>
> <Previous section of thread snipped but online>