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C84/C86 & EZB&W.

C84/C86 & EZB&W.

2004-11-05 by welchmatt

I'm interested in jumping in to archival B&W printing, but don't have 
the time, or certainly the money to look at the higher-end UT or 
peizo solutions.

I read an article on luminous landscape about new EZ inks, which are 
basically UT inks for use with very cheap Epson printers.  Has anyone 
tried this system yet?  Obviously, if I only pay $200 to get up and 
running, I can't reasonably expect the same quality as if I bought a 
2200 and all that, but is this EZ stuff a pretty good beginner's 
solution?

I'm a little mystified as to how it would work.  Using only the 
default print driver, I'm guessing we can't reasonably expect to get 
out of the printer exactly what we see on the screen.  It's just 
gonna shoot some toned ink out of the yellow nozzle when the driver 
calls for yellow, some different toned ink for cyan, etc.  Is this 
understanding correct?  What about if we get the photo looking real 
nice in greyscale?  Can we expect better results then?

Thanks for any help you could lend.  I searched the archives, and 
didn't see anything.

Matt

RE: [Digital BW] C84/C86 & EZB&W.

2004-11-05 by Paul Roark

Matt,

>I read an article on luminous landscape about new EZ inks, which are 
>basically UT inks for use with very cheap Epson printers.  

True.  They will have the same lightfastness as the UT2 and UT7 inks.

>Obviously, if I only pay $200 to get up and running,

Or less.

> I can't reasonably expect the same quality as if I bought a 
>2200 and all that,

Don't bet on it.  The original EZ set in a C82 separated every single step
of a 256 step wedge test, with the exception that 255 = 254, and 0 = 1.  The
smoothness was equal to a 2200 with UltraChrome inks and IP 5 RIP.  The
lightfastness in my initial fade tests is better than the UC inks.

>I'm a little mystified as to how it would work.  Using only the 
>default print driver, I'm guessing we can't reasonably expect to get 
>out of the printer exactly what we see on the screen. 

You have the sliders and gamma controls of the driver available.

Also, if you use Photoshop, there is a soft proof/viewing profile procedure
that allows you to match the monitor view to the final print.

>It's just 
>gonna shoot some toned ink out of the yellow nozzle when the driver 
>calls for yellow, some different toned ink for cyan, etc.

With a grayscale file, there is ink shooting out of all the nozzles.  The
CMY "neutral" EZ inks are all the same density and hue.  (Likewise for the
warm inks.)  You can vary the final print tone or hue by putting in one or
more warm (pure carbon pigment) carts.  So, you can control the final print
tone/hue with the ink installation arrangement.  You can also print on
either matte or glossy by installing different black inks, or the "Universal
black" that has some dye and is less lightfast.  MIS now has poppet C86
carts that make this easy and also can be easily re-filled forever -- very
nice indeed.  
(See http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/c84refill.html) 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] C84/C86 & EZB&W.

2004-11-05 by Carl Schofield

Any word from MIS on when they expect to have the sponge-free 2200 
carts?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Friday, November 5, 2004, at 01:51  PM, Paul Roark wrote:

>  MIS now has poppet C86
> carts that make this easy and also can be easily re-filled forever -- 
> very
> nice indeed.
> (See http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/c84refill.html)
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] C84/C86 & EZB&W.

2004-11-05 by Paul Roark

I have not seen any sponge-free 2200 carts yet, unfortunately.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
____________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...] 
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 11:52 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] C84/C86 & EZB&W.


Any word from MIS on when they expect to have the sponge-free 2200 
carts?

On Friday, November 5, 2004, at 01:51  PM, Paul Roark wrote:

>  MIS now has poppet C86
> carts that make this easy and also can be easily re-filled forever -- 
> very
> nice indeed.
> (See http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/c84refill.html)
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com




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Re: [Digital BW] C84/C86 & EZB&W.

2004-11-05 by welchmatt

Paul,

Thanks for the answers.  In short, I can assume that the EZ inks are a
GREAT way to get into fine art B&W printing on the cheap?

Do you anticipate documentation or information about how to mix warm
vs. neutral for various hues, or about how to change sliders and/or
gamma for certain effects?

Thanks again.

Matt

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Matt,
> 
> >I read an article on luminous landscape about new EZ inks, which are 
> >basically UT inks for use with very cheap Epson printers.  
> 
> True.  They will have the same lightfastness as the UT2 and UT7 inks.
> 
> >Obviously, if I only pay $200 to get up and running,
> 
> Or less.
> 
> > I can't reasonably expect the same quality as if I bought a 
> >2200 and all that,
> 
> Don't bet on it.  The original EZ set in a C82 separated every
single step
> of a 256 step wedge test, with the exception that 255 = 254, and 0 =
1.  The
> smoothness was equal to a 2200 with UltraChrome inks and IP 5 RIP.  The
> lightfastness in my initial fade tests is better than the UC inks.
> 
> >I'm a little mystified as to how it would work.  Using only the 
> >default print driver, I'm guessing we can't reasonably expect to get 
> >out of the printer exactly what we see on the screen. 
> 
> You have the sliders and gamma controls of the driver available.
> 
> Also, if you use Photoshop, there is a soft proof/viewing profile
procedure
> that allows you to match the monitor view to the final print.
> 
> >It's just 
> >gonna shoot some toned ink out of the yellow nozzle when the driver 
> >calls for yellow, some different toned ink for cyan, etc.
> 
> With a grayscale file, there is ink shooting out of all the nozzles.
 The
> CMY "neutral" EZ inks are all the same density and hue.  (Likewise
for the
> warm inks.)  You can vary the final print tone or hue by putting in
one or
> more warm (pure carbon pigment) carts.  So, you can control the
final print
> tone/hue with the ink installation arrangement.  You can also print on
> either matte or glossy by installing different black inks, or the
"Universal
> black" that has some dye and is less lightfast.  MIS now has poppet C86
> carts that make this easy and also can be easily re-filled forever
-- very
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> nice indeed.  
> (See http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/c84refill.html) 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] C84/C86 & EZB&W.

2004-11-05 by Paul Roark

Matt,

>... In short, I can assume that the EZ inks are a
>GREAT way to get into fine art B&W printing on the cheap?

Yes. That is exactly what the EZ inkset was designed to do.

(I should disclose, for those who don't know, that I'm probably biased in
that I do the design work on these inksets.  I'm independent of MIS, receive
no royalties or other money, but I do receive free ink and supplies.)

>Do you anticipate documentation or information about how to mix 
>warm vs. neutral for various hues, or about how to change sliders 
>and/or gamma for certain effects?

I'm working on a C86 now and will have some notes soon.  I'm not 100% sure
I'll recommend staying with the existing inks or upgrading to a new set just
for the C86.  So, I'd recommend you stick with carts for the time being and
not buy a CFS.  

Filling the C84/C86 carts shown on the MIS webpage at
http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/c84refill.html is so easy
that the real cheap and flexible way to go is buy some of those carts, some
bulk ink, and a few 10 cc syringes.  

(These carts may have a few quirks. Cleaning may pull ink out of them faster
than they can release it.  So, it may be a good idea to wait for a while
after cleaning cycles for the ink to pool at the outlet.  The use of the
Purge4 pattern to get things going may also be useful -- expect the C86 to
spit ink out in these.)

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

___________________________

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Matt,
> 
> >I read an article on luminous landscape about new EZ inks, which are 
> >basically UT inks for use with very cheap Epson printers.  
> 
> True.  They will have the same lightfastness as the UT2 and UT7 inks.
> 
> >Obviously, if I only pay $200 to get up and running,
> 
> Or less.
> 
> > I can't reasonably expect the same quality as if I bought a 
> >2200 and all that,
> 
> Don't bet on it.  The original EZ set in a C82 separated every
single step
> of a 256 step wedge test, with the exception that 255 = 254, and 0 =
1.  The
> smoothness was equal to a 2200 with UltraChrome inks and IP 5 RIP.  The
> lightfastness in my initial fade tests is better than the UC inks.
> 
> >I'm a little mystified as to how it would work.  Using only the 
> >default print driver, I'm guessing we can't reasonably expect to get 
> >out of the printer exactly what we see on the screen. 
> 
> You have the sliders and gamma controls of the driver available.
> 
> Also, if you use Photoshop, there is a soft proof/viewing profile
procedure
> that allows you to match the monitor view to the final print.
> 
> >It's just 
> >gonna shoot some toned ink out of the yellow nozzle when the driver 
> >calls for yellow, some different toned ink for cyan, etc.
> 
> With a grayscale file, there is ink shooting out of all the nozzles.
 The
> CMY "neutral" EZ inks are all the same density and hue.  (Likewise
for the
> warm inks.)  You can vary the final print tone or hue by putting in
one or
> more warm (pure carbon pigment) carts.  So, you can control the
final print
> tone/hue with the ink installation arrangement.  You can also print on
> either matte or glossy by installing different black inks, or the
"Universal
> black" that has some dye and is less lightfast.  MIS now has poppet C86
> carts that make this easy and also can be easily re-filled forever
-- very
> nice indeed.  
> (See http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/c84refill.html) 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

RE: [Digital BW] C84/C86 & EZB&W.

2004-11-06 by Lee Hiers

On 5 Nov 2004 at 15:53, Paul Roark wrote:

> >... In short, I can assume that the EZ inks are a
> >GREAT way to get into fine art B&W printing on the cheap?
> 
> Yes. That is exactly what the EZ inkset was designed to do.
> 
> (I should disclose, for those who don't know, that I'm probably biased in
> that I do the design work on these inksets.  I'm independent of MIS, receive
> no royalties or other money, but I do receive free ink and supplies.)

I don't have those biases Paul has, but I did recently buy a C86 and 
am playing around with the EZ inks.  And I'm very happy with the 
results so far.

I have tried Black Only printing with this printer and Eboni ink, but 
was not satisfied with the results.  I'm getting some (apparent) 
banding and don't like the "grain".  I have one of Clayton Jones' BO 
prints from a 2200 and think it looks great.  I'm sure part of it is 
my technique vs. Clayton's, but I also think a large part of it is 
the printer.  BTW, Clayton recommended that I go with one of the 
larger printers, but I ignored his advice.  

The EZ prints look great to me.  The dots all but disappear, and the 
prints are really smooth looking.  FWIW, I'm using the EZ set, but 
with an EZ-W cartridge in the yellow position.  I'm going to go with 
a full EZ-W set next time I order because I do like the color of the 
BO prints better than the hybrid EZ set I'm using.  My understanding 
is that the EZ-W is pure carbon, so I'm guessing it should be close 
to the same color as straight Eboni ink.

> I'm working on a C86 now and will have some notes soon.  I'm not 100% sure
> I'll recommend staying with the existing inks or upgrading to a new set just
> for the C86.  So, I'd recommend you stick with carts for the time being and
> not buy a CFS.  

It was kind of hard for me to justify investing $200 in a CFS for an 
$80 printer, so I'm just going to refill cartridges after I decide 
exactly which set I'm going to standardize on.  I have already 
started refilling the black cart, and it's a piece of cake.  

You can get a full EZ set of inks and the printer for about 130 bucks 
after rebate, so it's definitely worth giving it a try.  

I wanted a printer that could simply do double duty for B&W and color 
by using BO printing, but the C86 isn't it.   I may end up with a 
1280 after all, but I'm in no hurry because the EZ prints look nice 
and I don't really need to print bigger than 8.5 x 11.  

YMMV of course...

HTH,

Lee

 
-- 
Lee Hiers, AA4GA
Cornelia, Georgia

"Have Dobro Will Travel"

Re: [Digital BW] C84/C86 & EZB&W.

2004-11-06 by Lynn

To Lee:  in this part of your message (see quote below), I got 
confused. What is different about the inks you're using compared to the 
EZ-Warm set the MIS sells ?

To All: The only thing I wasn't sure of with either EZ set was whether 
that second ink is pure carbon pigment like the black ink in the set.

The C84 or C86 with EZ-warm carbon inks is one of the things I'm 
planning to buy for dedicated B&W on watercolor type paper. I'm still 
not settled on a color printer yet. Small though it is (up to 8.5x11 - 
I can't find anything equivalent to it for b&w  elsewhere - I wish the 
manufacturers would release these various excellent small printers in 
larger format very soon.

Thanks all,
-Lynn
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Nov 5, 2004, at 11:06 PM, Lee Hiers wrote:

>
>  The EZ prints look great to me.  The dots all but disappear, and the
>  prints are really smooth looking.  FWIW, I'm using the EZ set, but
>  with an EZ-W cartridge in the yellow position.  I'm going to go with
>  a full EZ-W set next time I order because I do like the color of the
>  BO prints better than the hybrid EZ set I'm using.  My understanding
>  is that the EZ-W is pure carbon, so I'm guessing it should be close
>  to the same color as straight Eboni ink.
>

RE: [Digital BW] C84/C86 & EZB&W.

2004-11-06 by Paul Roark

Lee,

>...I did recently buy a C86 and am playing around with the EZ inks.  
>And I'm very happy with the results so far.

>I have tried Black Only printing with this printer and Eboni ink, but 
>was not satisfied with the results.  I'm getting some (apparent) 
>banding and don't like the "grain".  I have one of Clayton Jones' BO 
>prints from a 2200 and think it looks great.  I'm sure part of it is 
>my technique vs. Clayton's, but I also think a large part of it is 
>the printer.  ...

True, the C86 is not equal to the 2200 BO quality.


>...My understanding is that the EZ-W is pure carbon,

Yes.

>so I'm guessing it should be close to the same color as straight Eboni ink.

It will be warmer than Eboni.  To get close to Eboni have at least one
"neutral" cartridge in, probably the C or M spots.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] C84/C86 & EZB&W.

2004-11-06 by Lee Hiers

On 6 Nov 2004 at 9:04, Paul Roark wrote:

> True, the C86 is not equal to the 2200 BO quality.

And I'll probably end up getting a 1280 so I can get good 
BO and color also.  They're available right now at a pretty 
good price...but I suspect I'd better not drag my feet if I 
want to get one new!

> >so I'm guessing it should be close to the same color as straight Eboni ink.
> 
> It will be warmer than Eboni.  To get close to Eboni have at least one
> "neutral" cartridge in, probably the C or M spots.

Thanks for the info Paul.

Lee


-- 
Lee Hiers, AA4GA
Cornelia, Georgia

"Have Dobro Will Travel"

Re: [Digital BW] C84/C86 & EZB&W.

2004-11-06 by Lee Hiers

On 6 Nov 2004 at 4:17, Lynn wrote:

> To Lee:  in this part of your message (see quote below), I got 
> confused. What is different about the inks you're using compared to the 
> EZ-Warm set the MIS sells ?

I'm using a regular EZ set, but in the Yellow position, I'm using an 
EZ-W "yellow" cart to get a tone somewhere between the EZ and EZ-W 
sets.  If you haven't read Paul's notes on the EZ inks, go to 
http://tinyurl.com/4mny8 which is where I got that idea:

"Of course, the neat trick of putting a warm cart in the Y spot for 
slightly warm and M spot for medium warm tones is a neat trick that 
should be promoted."

> To All: The only thing I wasn't sure of with either EZ set was whether 
> that second ink is pure carbon pigment like the black ink in the set.

Per Paul's reply to my post, the EZ-W is all carbon.  I believe the 
regular EZ ink is carbon plus small amounts of dye to cool the tone.  


> The C84 or C86 with EZ-warm carbon inks is one of the things I'm 
> planning to buy for dedicated B&W on watercolor type paper. I'm still 
> not settled on a color printer yet. Small though it is (up to 8.5x11 - 
> I can't find anything equivalent to it for b&w  elsewhere - I wish the 
> manufacturers would release these various excellent small printers in 
> larger format very soon.

I wouldn't count on it, but it would be neat if there were a larger-
format printer of similar quality that only used 4 inks.  The name 
"EZ" for these inks is appropriate.  I think it gives me less to 
worry about as I'm learning the whole digital thing!  I'll probably 
end up getting the 1280 or 2200 anyway so I can do BO and color with 
the same printer.  

Have fun!

Lee


-- 
Lee Hiers, AA4GA
Cornelia, Georgia

"Have Dobro Will Travel"

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