Digital BW, The Print

jrandall@... wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to develop an RGB/partitioned workflow for the MIS FS quad
> inkset.  I've tried Paul Roark's VM curves and "zeroing" the Blue
> curve that controls the toner and many other trial and error
> efforts.  Before I pay to have an ink pipeline installed from MIS to
> my house, I think I need some help.  Does anyone have guidance on how
> to develop a partitioned workflow for an inkset and paper combination?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Jeff Randall
> 

What Printer are you using ?

-Jeff

1160

Jeff Randall

<snip> 

> What Printer are you using ?
> 
> -Jeff

Jeff,
 
I'm going to undertake the same task in the next days (I've just received
the inks), with the following idea:
 
1) Find out the actual density of the four FS inks (according to Paul Roark
they should be very close to K = 100%, C = 84%, M = 38%, Y = 27%, which are
the measured Piezo densities).
2) Find out what RGB values the Epson driver maps to pure inks in the 1160
(according to Paul Roark, again, these values should be RGB(0,255,255),
RGB(255,0,255) and RGB(255,255,0)).
3) Write a Photoshop duotone set using 4 grays with the FS densities (100%,
84%, 38%, 27%) and writing curves so that the 21-step grayscale remains
exactly the same when this duotone (actually quadtone) set is applied.
4) Write another duotone set with the same curves as in the first one, but
using the three RGB values for pure C, M and Y instead of the 3 grays (black
remains unchanged).
 
The idea is that, once I have an image in grayscale mode, I change it to
duotone mode applying the second set and then print (the first set is only
necessary to devise the correct curves).
 
As usual, tests should be run on the 21-step grayscale image. I'll let you
know how it works when I have the first results.
 
Alessandro Pardi

-----Original Message-----
From: jrandall@... [mailto:jrandall@...]
Sent: sabato 10 novembre 2001 19.02
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] RGB Workflow for MIS FS Quad Inks


I'm trying to develop an RGB/partitioned workflow for the MIS FS quad 
inkset.  I've tried Paul Roark's VM curves and "zeroing" the Blue 
curve that controls the toner and many other trial and error 
efforts.  Before I pay to have an ink pipeline installed from MIS to 
my house, I think I need some help.  Does anyone have guidance on how 
to develop a partitioned workflow for an inkset and paper combination?

Thanks.

Jeff Randall 


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>I'm going to undertake the same task in the next days (I've just received
>the inks), with the following idea:

>1) Find out the actual density of the four FS inks (according to Paul Roark
>they should be very close to K = 100%, C = 84%, M = 38%, Y = 27%, which are
>the measured Piezo densities).

Those values are what I get on MY scanner.  I think the measured "densities"
are going to vary depending on your hardware.  The gamma settings are not
consistent among the scanners.  You need an actual Piezo test strip to use
as a standard.  You then measure that and use the reading you get with your
equipment to match the Piezo or other ink density.

So, eliminate the variables by using a standard test strip that is printed
and measured by the same equipment that will be used on the new inks.

>...
>I'm trying to develop an RGB/partitioned workflow for the MIS FS quad
>inkset.  I've tried Paul Roark's VM curves and "zeroing" the Blue
>curve that controls the toner and many other trial and error
>efforts.

You don't need to deal with the ink densities just to write partitioning
curves.  Just work from the 21-step test strip.  All it involves is a
feedback loop -- Print 21-step test file with curve X, measure 21-step test
strip densities, adjust curve X accordingly, save as curve X2, print test
strip with curve X2, ....

The MIS VM "warm" curve will give results that should look OK.  It holds the
lightest (yellow position, blue curve on the 1160) ink back the most.  It
then pulls it into play just enough to turn on the black jet.  Because the
yellow position FS ink is lighter than the toner the densities will be a bit
low, but they should be close.

Of course, the "warm" curve approach is not what you want with FS.  You want
the light ink to be used in the highlights.

My old PxoRGB4 curve should be close on an 1160 with a PC.  However, if I
were re-writing it today, I'd use the magenta position ink up in the
highlights more and reduce the slopes of the yellow-position ink (blue
curve).  That is, magenta is light enough to mix in with the yellow in the
highlights.  Keep cyan (red) out of the highlights.  Also, try to keep the
negative slopes to a minimum.  They cause a lot of the inconsistencies among
printer types.  The milder the curves, the more likely the curve will work
on other printer types.  That is one of the good points of the Woolf
workflow.  It may not be technically great, but it is fairly portable among
printers.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,
I do not have a Piezo test strip and I wouldn't know how to get it. My plan
is to print a patch of each of the FS inks, put on the same piece of paper
something as a color reference and have it all scanned. Do you think this
approach can be precise enough? After all, all I need is the density of each
of the three grays relative to the black ink, so I can cope with scanner
inconsistency as long as the introduced variation is linear (i.e. equally
applies to each of the inks, and not to one more than to others). I hope
what I wrote makes sense, the idea is clear in my mind but I'm afraid my
english is not good enough :-)
 
Alessandro Pardi

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]


>I'm going to undertake the same task in the next days (I've just received
>the inks), with the following idea:

>1) Find out the actual density of the four FS inks (according to Paul Roark
>they should be very close to K = 100%, C = 84%, M = 38%, Y = 27%, which are
>the measured Piezo densities).

Those values are what I get on MY scanner.  I think the measured "densities"
are going to vary depending on your hardware.  The gamma settings are not
consistent among the scanners.  You need an actual Piezo test strip to use
as a standard.  You then measure that and use the reading you get with your
equipment to match the Piezo or other ink density.

So, eliminate the variables by using a standard test strip that is printed
and measured by the same equipment that will be used on the new inks.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alessandro,

>...all I need is the density of each
>of the three grays relative to the black ink,

I'm not sure you need this if you are just writing curves for a 24-bit,
partitioning workflow.

> so I can cope with scanner
>inconsistency as long as the introduced variation is linear (i.e. equally
>applies to each of the inks, and not to one more than to others).

That is the problem -- the inconsistencies are not linear.  The gamma
differences push up or down the 50% density reading relative to the 100% and
0%.

But again, if your aim is a good looking 21-step test strip from your
workflow, why do you need the ink densities?  Just use trial and error.  You
can just assume that the FS cyan is about 8x%, and magenta about 3x%, and
the yellow 2x%.  All you really need to know is what the approximate
densities are -- and you have them.  Just start trying curves and see what
happens.  The vmqw and PzoRGB4 give you a good starting point.

>I hope
>what I wrote makes sense, the idea is clear in my mind but I'm afraid my
>english is not good enough :-)

Your English is great.

Paul

Paul Roark wrote:
<snip> 
> The MIS VM "warm" curve will give results that should look OK.  It 
holds the
> lightest (yellow position, blue curve on the 1160) ink back the 
most.  It
> then pulls it into play just enough to turn on the black jet.   
<snip>

Paul:  Your response regarding the Epson driver "turning on the black 
jet" requires a follow-up question. I may not be asking this 
correctly, so please bear with me: In general, under what 
circumstance does the driver deliver the black ink?  I understand 
your words, but I don't seem to get the subtleties.

Thanks.

Jeff Randall

Jeff,

You wrote:

>... regarding the Epson driver "turning on the black
>jet" requires a follow-up question. ...
> In general, under what circumstance does the driver
>deliver the black ink?  ...

The driver looks at the three color curves and turns on the black jet when
the three together approach the 100% black point.  In general, you'll want
the cyan (dark gray) to be close to full on when the black ink starts.  So,
to get the darkest you can without the black, have the cyan and magenta
fairly far down, then the lighter ink, indirectly, will act as a control on
the black ink.  If the two other inks are close to 100%, you'll start
getting black ink with the third ink about 1/4 or 1/3 the way down from the
top.  If it comes down at too steep an angle, you will end up with an uneven
ramp.

To use the light ink for both the indirect black ink control and the
highlights, you need that ink to go into a reverse slope in the middle of
the graph.  For this compromise, recall that straight magenta in the
highlights makes for very smooth highlights.  That is, the lightest ink is
almost irrelevant.  So, have it pour in some ink right at first, but then
pull it back up to use it for the black control.

Since you only have 15 points per color graph, you also have to
compromise -- choosing one ink to be the primary control for the part of the
graph where that ink matters the most. The cyan in the midtone ink and needs
all its points there.  Don't have any cyan in the top 25%.  The magenta is
actually the main highlight ink, except for maybe the first 5%-10%.

Hope this helps.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com




Paul Roark wrote:
<snip>
> The MIS VM "warm" curve will give results that should look OK.  It
holds the
> lightest (yellow position, blue curve on the 1160) ink back the
most.  It
> then pulls it into play just enough to turn on the black jet.
<snip>

Paul, I'm currently using the Beta ("enhanced") black from Generations
with the MIS color pigments. You mentioned that the VM black was much
longer lasting than the Beta.

Do you think the VM Black will work ok with the MIS Color pigments?  

Or do you think the Beta is fine for ordinary color prints? If they last
15 years or so, I'd be satisfied. I have a pint of beta black left, so
would like to use it first.

Jerry

Jerry,

You wrote:

>I'm currently using the Beta ("enhanced") black from Generations
>with the MIS color pigments. You mentioned that the VM black was much
>longer lasting than the Beta.

Apparently "Beta" black is Enhanced with dyes to make it blacker.  As such,
it would not be expected to have the light fastness of a more pure pigmented
inkset.  What I noticed is that in my fade tests it warm shifted and faded
appreciably more than the MIS or Piezo blacks.  the MIS VM black appears to
be the same as the Piezo black.

However, while I saw a significant difference, the Generations inks have
apparently passed the 75 year mark in Wilhelm tests.  So, the Enhanced black
is no slouch.

>Do you think the VM Black will work ok with the MIS Color pigments?

Yes, but you might have to change your profiles, etc.  That is, the inkset
will print somewhat differently.

>Or do you think the Beta is fine for ordinary color prints? If they last
>15 years or so, I'd be satisfied. I have a pint of beta black left, so
>would like to use it first.

I think you ought to just use the beta black.  You like a deep black, and it
is deeper than the others -- because of those dyes.

Paul

>* New stability data for the much improved MediaStreet.com 
>Generations 4 inks printed with Epson 3000 (a 4-ink printer) and the 
>Epson 5000 (a 6-ink printer) and MediaStreet.com Royal Plush Paper.  
>With both printers, the new pigmented Generations formulations are 
>rated at "greater than 100 years" and are also expected to have very 
>good humidity-fastness properties.

The above is a quote (font and all, I'm not sure why) from the 11/5 
update of the 9/12 update of

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/

The 9/12 update announced Gen4 had passed the 75-year mark (and 
therefore Crystal Archive's 60-year rating). I.e., the more-recent 
report from Wilhelm reinforces Paul's suggestion that Jerry go ahead 
and use up the Enhanced inkset's Beta Black in the Generations 4 
inkset. But I think the history of Wilhelm's tests of Generations 
suggests that it's the new, 4th version of the Yellow ink which 
accounts for Generations' improved longevity. I.e., that the Beta 
Black alone has been just as long-lived since it was introduced, I 
think about two years ago?

Sam


Paul Roark previously wrote in response to Jerry Olson:

>[snip] However, while I saw a significant difference, the 
>Generations inks have
>apparently passed the 75 year mark in Wilhelm tests.  So, the Enhanced black
>is no slouch.
>
> >Do you think the VM Black will work ok with the MIS Color pigments?
>
>Yes, but you might have to change your profiles, etc.  That is, the inkset
>will print somewhat differently.
>
> >Or do you think the Beta is fine for ordinary color prints? If they last
> >15 years or so, I'd be satisfied. I have a pint of beta black left, so
> >would like to use it first.
>
>I think you ought to just use the beta black.  You like a deep black, and it
>is deeper than the others -- because of those dyes.
>
>Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Sam A. McCandless" 
<samcc@v...> wrote:
But I think the history of Wilhelm's tests of Generations 
> suggests that it's the new, 4th version of the Yellow ink which 
> accounts for Generations' improved longevity. I.e., that the Beta 
> Black alone has been just as long-lived since it was 
introduced, I 
> think about two years ago?


After the endless search for the Holy Grail, I think I've found my 
home. I settled on Generations4. The way I understand it, I 
ended up with the supposed "new yellow", which they've been 
selling for a year now, and the "Standard Black", which is all 
pigment and contains no dye, (different from their "Enhanced 
Black" which does contain some dye).

Again, my goal was ultimate longevity, at least with the materials 
that are available on the market today. 

And when you match it up with Epson Smooth Fine Art, which is 
acid-free, and brightener-free, I think it's a good combination.

I will say, I was very surprised to see the punchiness of the 
colors. I had expected a noticeable downtown from the dyes that 
I'd been using, and had read concerns about the punchiness of 
the black. I'd say on both counts, it looks VERY good. The yellow 
is more of a "lemon yellow" rather than a "Kodak yellow", but for 
me, printing limited-gamut B/W, I don't think it's a big deal at all, 
once it's profiled properly.

So I'm a happy camper, after sleeping around with every ink 
company in the universe. I also added a small HomeDepot 
humidifier underneather the 7000; it runs at night on low, 
underneather a draped sheet of plastic over the printer.

-Mark Tucker

Thanks for the quick answer Paul. Will do.
Jerry

on 11/14/01 10:08 AM, Mark Tucker wrote:

> After the endless search for the Holy Grail, I think I've found my
> home. I settled on Generations4. The way I understand it, I
> ended up with the supposed "new yellow", which they've been
> selling for a year now, and the "Standard Black", which is all
> pigment and contains no dye, (different from their "Enhanced
> Black" which does contain some dye).

Mark

I'll be curious to hear how you feel about your prints (longevity aside)
with the Gens vs your former dye based inks. Personally, and I don't have a
lot of experience with color Pigs yet, all things being equal I like the
depth and translucence of the dye inks best. But I too am thinking of making
the move to Generations.

However, in a newsletter from Digital Art Supplies I did receive the snippet
below, which gives pause:

"Wilhem Research's web site is finally back up.  They have posted some
preliminary information about new archivability tests & one of the most
important to our users is for the Schoellershammer Velvet #10 paper.  The
paper was tested with Lysonic inks and has tested at 85-95 years.  This is
very important as Lyson's inks are dye based, which have in the past
inherently lasted a shorter time than pigmented inks."

Anyway, Generations seems to have a product that you can't really go wrong
with, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts as you compare your prints.

I liked your exchange print and image very much BTW. You must make your rep
very happy. ;-)

Do you have any plans to put any Vick's Mentholatum on the vaporizer during the winter?

(wink)

I think the humidifier is a very good idea...either under the plastic cover or not.  

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Tucker 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 9:08 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Gen 4 longevity (was Re: RGB Workflow)


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Sam A. McCandless" 
  <samcc@v...> wrote:
  But I think the history of Wilhelm's tests of Generations 
  > suggests that it's the new, 4th version of the Yellow ink which 
  > accounts for Generations' improved longevity. I.e., that the Beta 
  > Black alone has been just as long-lived since it was 
  introduced, I 
  > think about two years ago?


  After the endless search for the Holy Grail, I think I've found my 
  home. I settled on Generations4. The way I understand it, I 
  ended up with the supposed "new yellow", which they've been 
  selling for a year now, and the "Standard Black", which is all 
  pigment and contains no dye, (different from their "Enhanced 
  Black" which does contain some dye).

  Again, my goal was ultimate longevity, at least with the materials 
  that are available on the market today. 

  And when you match it up with Epson Smooth Fine Art, which is 
  acid-free, and brightener-free, I think it's a good combination.

  I will say, I was very surprised to see the punchiness of the 
  colors. I had expected a noticeable downtown from the dyes that 
  I'd been using, and had read concerns about the punchiness of 
  the black. I'd say on both counts, it looks VERY good. The yellow 
  is more of a "lemon yellow" rather than a "Kodak yellow", but for 
  me, printing limited-gamut B/W, I don't think it's a big deal at all, 
  once it's profiled properly.

  So I'm a happy camper, after sleeping around with every ink 
  company in the universe. I also added a small HomeDepot 
  humidifier underneather the 7000; it runs at night on low, 
  underneather a draped sheet of plastic over the printer.

  -Mark Tucker




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>After the endless search for the Holy Grail, I think I've found my
>home. I settled on Generations4. The way I understand it, I
>ended up with the supposed "new yellow", which they've been
>selling for a year now, and the "Standard Black", which is all
>pigment and contains no dye, (different from their "Enhanced
>Black" which does contain some dye).

I think this mix-and-match Generations inkset, which as Mark says 
includes both the older, all-pigment, "standard" black and the new, 
fourth-generation lemon yellow, is what MediaStreet calls "Outdoor 
Generations" (I believe because it's more water resistant). Swapping 
in the blacker, hybrid Beta Black results in the Generations ink set 
I believe MediaStreet calls "Enhanced", at least on their web page. 
Wilhelm still calls "Generations 4", as Mark and I believe 
MediaStreet itself did when they submitted it for testing.


>Again, my goal was ultimate longevity, at least with the materials
>that are available on the market today.

It is the Enhanced/Gen4 Generations inkset, the one with the hybrid, 
75/25 pigment/dye ("beta") black, which Wilhelm is testing (on Royal 
Plush) and which is now at 100+ and counting. So Mark might well have 
achieved his goal by swapping the all-pigment, "standard"  black back 
into the inkset he's using.

>And when you match it up with Epson Smooth Fine Art, which is
>acid-free, and brightener-free, I think it's a good combination.
>
>I will say, I was very surprised to see the punchiness of the
>colors. I had expected a noticeable downtown from the dyes that
>I'd been using, and had read concerns about the punchiness of
>the black. I'd say on both counts, it looks VERY good. The yellow
>is more of a "lemon yellow" rather than a "Kodak yellow", but for
>me, printing limited-gamut B/W, I don't think it's a big deal at all,
>once it's profiled properly.
>
>So I'm a happy camper, after sleeping around with every ink
>company in the universe. I also added a small HomeDepot
>humidifier underneather the 7000; it runs at night on low,
>underneather a draped sheet of plastic over the printer.
>
>-Mark Tucker

Paul,
 
> But again, if your aim is a good looking 21-step test strip from your
> workflow, why do you need the ink densities?  Just use trial and error.
 
In an ideal world, knowing the density of each ink on the paper would allow
me to write a WYSIWYG Photoshop duotone set, using 4 grays with that same
densities (i.e. percentage). Reading your words (and your other post about
when the black ink kicks in in the Epson driver), however, made me realize
that this can be a good starting point, but I have to do some trial&error
sessions anyway, given that:
1) I'll never know *exactly* what the Epson driver does.
2) Mixing inks on paper may well yield different results than what Photoshop
does when it combines them in duotone mode. It is true that PS (ah, what a
great piece of software!) allows you to specify overprints, just for this
reason, but this needs printing all combinations of the 4 inks, scanning
etc., and it sounds more or less an amount of work comparable to the
aforementioned trial&error.
Anyway, shouldn't I get a perfect 21-step strip, but only a pretty good one,
WYSIWYGness would still be reachable: I'd simply write a duotone set
matching that strip. For example, one with 39% gray rather than 40% and 56%
rather than 55%. 1 percent differences are surely visible (at least on
screen), but I don't think they would be a limit in what you can reach.
 
 
> Your English is great.
 
Thank you for your kind words. My English may be good, but I'm just a
block-head, a tapioca-brain, you name it. I opened the long expected package
from MIS, last night, only to find out that I forgot to order the virgin
carts. Luckily there was nobody around to hear my swearing (in Italian) when
I double-checked their site and saw that it wasn't their mistake, but mine.
Two more weeks of waiting, sigh...
 
Alessandro
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]