Digital BW, The Print

Doug,

Well, I think it has more to see with the subject, what kind of camera you snap with, the way you'd scan if not digital, and the printer settings. If you look at a print made from an 8'x10' neg or chrome, definetly you have the feeling to be "inside" the picture. On the other side, digital cameras leave you out and give you beautiful flat 2D tones. The feeling of depth is given by the bokeh, the tonal range and there is nothing better than LF to restitute this.
I guess your results for the same picture are due to the fact that you manage to print better on one type of paper, but you could obtain similar results with other papers. For me Museo and William Tuner work very well.

Michel

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Douglas Meeuwsen 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 7:11 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Two dimensional vs 3D prints?



  hello.....this May be a new subject. I wonder if anyone else has this 
  feeling...

  The thing that I like the least about some of my prints, is that they 
  seem two dimensional. When i look in a BW photo book at borders (i 
  spend my break there everyday) the great prints all seem very deep and 
  3D-like. For a long time I thought it was because of the way I used 
  sharpening. When it is really bad, the figures in the image seem like 
  flat pieces of paper laying on top of each other. So I kind of 
  gradually did less and less sharpening, but I still see it. Usually I 
  dont see it until a couple days after making the print.

  Now that I've done maybe 50 prints using the costco glossy, I am 
  convinced that it has to do with the paper. I have some prints up on a 
  wall, where I leave them for maybe a couple weeks, and the costco 
  prints a very 3D. Even images that I thought were just oversharpened 
  dont look 2D.

  Did some printing on photo rag, German etching, and velvet fine art 
  this week for a wedding gift, and sure enough, the Photo rag and german 
  etching are definitely 2 dimensional. The velvet fine art prints are 
  12x16, and I dont see them as 2D, but it might be because the are so 
  big, and I just like looking at them. I definitely like the look of VFA 
  better.

  I am thinking not that it may be because of the texture of Photo rag 
  and german etching. I cant decide if the depth changes when I change 
  the angle of sight. It  may be that. However, I know that I also see 
  the problem with Permajet Matte Plus, when is a great feeling smooth 
  surface similar to EEM but thicker. By the way, I just cant get a real 
  good image with Matte plus for some reason. It is the most flat 
  looking. The point is that there is basically no texture.

  On Epson enhance matt, I think the look is more 3D. I almost never use 
  it, cuz the others have more Pop. The papers that seem 2D to me are 
  Photo rag, german etching, museo, Permajet parchment classic (nice 
  paper with real good image) Matte Plus, and Illuninata Cooltone 
  (yuk..changes color in the light drastically)

  papers that are more 3D are ilford smooth pearl, smooth gloss, and By a 
  huge margin....Lowly costco glossy paper.

  So now I am looking for a non glossy paper that looks as good as 
  costco. Mr Roark says premier semi-matte is his current choice. I am 
  pretty sure that He has never been wrong ever :) so I am ordering some 
  today.

  I am sure that other people have diferent observations, but I just want 
  to start a discussion about this 3D thing that has been bugging me!

  take care all.....DM



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You might want to check the following article on sharpening and the jump to
the article on final sharpening in Qimage:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/techcorner/tc_index.html

http://www.outbackphoto.com/dp_essentials/dp_essentials_05/essay.html

In the second article notice how sharpening makes the flat 2D image appear
3D.

Hope this info is useful.

Avery



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

finally got a chance to look the these article about 3D/2D effects in 
digital  imaging. Well, the second article seems to be a sales pitch 
for a plug-in that helps make images more 3D. Well if you look at the 
examples, I dont see it as really working. All it seems to do is 
sharpen. It actually makes the image MORE like paper dolls cut out of 
paper and laid over a back ground. Normally I see this only on the 
paper print, and with some papers way more than others. With this plug, 
I see the effect even on the screen. Look at the water reflections. 
they dont seem at all to be in the same focal plane. Plus the birds 
simply look way better before they were sharpened. Especially on the 
edges againts the water.
I think that either the 2d effect is caused by too much sharpening, or 
too big a radius, or it's caused by the paper. Maybe the surface of the 
paper. I noticed when I made some prints with the costco gloss, that 
the prints had way more depth and 3d effect than photo rag. But then I 
made prints with Velvet fine art that had better depth than photo rag, 
so it's not a gloss vs matte thing. My images are taken with a Minolta 
A1, and maybe that is the problem. I am getting my Minolta maxxum 7D in 
a few days, and I am going to try some real nice lenses to see if that 
is it also.
Right now I think it is the paper though.
Does anyone else have this bug-a-boo? Doug M
On Dec 5, 2004, at 3:22 PM, Avery Minor wrote:

> You might want to check the following article on sharpening and the 
> jump to
>  the article on final sharpening in Qimage:
>
> http://www.steves-digicams.com/techcorner/tc_index.html
>
> http://www.outbackphoto.com/dp_essentials/dp_essentials_05/essay.html
>
>  In the second article notice how sharpening makes the flat 2D image 
> appear
>  3D.
>
>  Hope this info is useful.
>
>  Avery
>
>
>
>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the 
> Files section:
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> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� 
> AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE� �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Qimage is a separate program. You can download a demo version from 
www.ddisoftware.com/qimage . I am not connected to ddisoftware or Qimage
although I have used it for years. I like many others on this list use it
for printing.
You may have seen messages about Roy Harrington's QuadtoneRIP and Stephen
Billard's GUI front end used in conjunction with Qimage.
When I want a little more punch or depth to images of my own or my clients I
use the final sharpening. I don't believe it has ever created the effect you
describe from the web on an Epson 2200 print with correct use.
Qimage final sharpening is a mechanism which compensates for the flat
appearance of digital images (if I remember correctly caused by camera
sensor to digital recording).
This effect can also be created manually in Photoshop with layers of
variable sharpness as per the mechanisms taught by Vincent Versace. I use
this method to create artwork photos for cards on Epson Matte paper to sell
because I can define the details (sharp or blurred) more precisely.
Avery

I replaced the black OEM cartridge in my C82 and get absolutely no black 
output. The cart reads full in the status monitor and the one that was 
replaced was printing fine when it ran out of ink. If memory serves this 
has happened before and required a major amount of cleaning before it 
started printing again. Meanwhile I'm using up way too much ink trying to 
get some black out of this baby. Any suggestions?

Michael