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Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-11 by shashinka@aol.com

Hello:

i really like Epson's 2 papers, Archival Matte and Epson's Watercolor with 
Piezo/Gen mix(I'm using Paul's formula in which the yellow position gets 
mixed w/ ltMag and ltCyan-thank's Paul).

Here is my question:

Are these papers really long-lasting, as far as avoiding a shift of the paper 
towards yellow over time(1-2yrs)? Also, now that people have had some time 
with the prints under window light tests, how do the paper bases look?  Is 
anyone finding any strange reactions with the Piezo inks and either of these 
papers over time?  

Also, some papers buckle a bit in the middle under a mat, even at relatively 
small sizes and I'm curious if people are seeing the problem after an 
extended period or if anyone has heat mounted Piezo or MIS work, please give 
some comments.

Thanks,

Andy Darlow

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-11 by Steadman Uhlich

I mount my prints in mats without any buckling at all.  

Perhaps you are using paper that is too light weight for size?  Or...how are you mounting to mat board?

I have matted many Piezo prints without a problem or buckle...perhaps it is your inkset... (wink).  

Personally, I would not use either EAM or EWC for fine art prints that I would sell....and I certainly would not call them archival prints...but I have my reasons for this...primarily the acid content of the papers. 

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: shashinka@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 10:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting


  Hello:

  i really like Epson's 2 papers, Archival Matte and Epson's Watercolor with 
  Piezo/Gen mix(I'm using Paul's formula in which the yellow position gets 
  mixed w/ ltMag and ltCyan-thank's Paul).

  Here is my question:

  Are these papers really long-lasting, as far as avoiding a shift of the paper 
  towards yellow over time(1-2yrs)? Also, now that people have had some time 
  with the prints under window light tests, how do the paper bases look?  Is 
  anyone finding any strange reactions with the Piezo inks and either of these 
  papers over time?  

  Also, some papers buckle a bit in the middle under a mat, even at relatively 
  small sizes and I'm curious if people are seeing the problem after an 
  extended period or if anyone has heat mounted Piezo or MIS work, please give 
  some comments.

  Thanks,

  Andy Darlow


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
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  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-11 by shashinka@aol.com

In a message dated 11/10/01 11:51:57 PM, steadmanuhlich@... writes:

<< Personally, I would not use either EAM or EWC for fine art prints that I 
would sell....and I certainly would not call them archival prints...but I 
have my reasons for this...primarily the acid content of the papers.  >>

Thanks,

The comment about buckling was just from experience with Som. velvet Enhanced 
190gsm and 24x30 prints.

Does Epson publish the acid ratings?  The pens are not accurate in my opinion.

All the best!

-Andy Darlow

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-11 by Steadman Uhlich

How are you getting the 24x30 prints...that is what printer?

190gsm  is a little light to stand on its own.  And how are you currently mounting them to a mat?

As for acid...everyone has a different opinion...mine is that the pens are accurate enough to tell when the paper is acid...which is what the pens tell us about those two papers.  This was discussed in detail on the PiezoBW list in about June or July as I recall. 

S.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: shashinka@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 11:00 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting



  In a message dated 11/10/01 11:51:57 PM, steadmanuhlich@... writes:

  << Personally, I would not use either EAM or EWC for fine art prints that I 
  would sell....and I certainly would not call them archival prints...but I 
  have my reasons for this...primarily the acid content of the papers.  >>

  Thanks,

  The comment about buckling was just from experience with Som. velvet Enhanced 
  190gsm and 24x30 prints.

  Does Epson publish the acid ratings?  The pens are not accurate in my opinion.

  All the best!

  -Andy Darlow




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-11 by Paul Roark

Andy,

I'm glad to see someone is still using the "variable-Piezo" mix.

>i really like Epson's 2 papers, Archival Matte and Epson's Watercolor with
>Piezo/Gen mix... my question:

>Are these papers really long-lasting,

Short answer -- no one knows.

I bought one of the acid pens and must agree with your later post -- I don't
think they give us a clue as to the answer.  When newsprint tests as
superior to my archivally-processed, fiber-based silver prints, how much
weight should we give such a test? I think none.

I still think Epson Archival Matte is the paper to beat, overall.  Even if
we can never know how many hundreds of years the paper will last, we can do
some accelerated fade testing to see how the images will hold up to light.
Even price-independent, for those who like smooth surfaces, EAM could be the
best there is in this respect.  Some other papers can match or even barely
beat it in some parameters in my fade testing, but then they will fall down
is some other area.  So, overall, I can't say I've tested another paper that
I think is superior to EAM overall.

I wish it tested as acid free, but it doesn't.  Buffering is cheap. I assume
(and have read somewhere) that Epson found buffering was detrimental to the
overall performance -- image permanence being the primary concern.

> as far as avoiding a shift of the paper towards yellow over time(1-2yrs)?

In my fade testing with bright fluorescent lights, the only paper not to
shift yellow was Museo.  (There, of course, may be others that I have not
tested.  I would not be at all surprised if uncoated paper did very well.)
EAM shifts, on average, about 3 units (of the 256 level, 8-bit scale).  This
seems average.  I have no idea how this relates to display under normal
conditions.

> Is anyone finding any strange reactions with the Piezo inks ...

I've never seen any of the strange claims about Piezo and EAM.  Piezo inks
have always been slightly green -- on most papers I've used.  (I had some
density changes with Piezo, but I think it is the CIS.)

>... some papers buckle a bit in the middle under a mat, even at relatively
>small sizes

I hang 16x20 EAM prints with 2 tapes, matted, and they have stayed perfect.

>... heat mounted Piezo or MIS work ...

I don't have any Piezo heat mounted, but I have a Generations color on Epson
Photo Quality Ink Jet paper that was dry mounted.  I'm told this is bad for
the inks, etc.  However, this one looks perfect and has for close to a year.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-11 by Jerry Olson

Hi Andy, I've not seen any fading of VM inks in room lighting on any
paper. They haven't been out two years yet. In the sunny window tests,
the cool and cold curves don't change much at all in 2 months.
That's good enough for me. These inks seem more stable than any others
in that window test. I still like the Archival matte and Epson
Watercolor papers a lot, and still use them. Eclipse is also a wonderful
paper. If you print under high humidity conditions most any thin paper
gets waves and buckles. Eclipse paper comes in 350 gsms, (velvet),  300
and 190 gsms (Satine). This paper goes through the 1160's without
problems, and also the 1280. One side is slightly textured, and the
other is smoother. You can print on both sides. Also very reasonably
priced. 100 percent cotton rag, pH neutral.



Jerry

shashinka@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Hello:
> 
> i really like Epson's 2 papers, Archival Matte and Epson's Watercolor with
> Piezo/Gen mix(I'm using Paul's formula in which the yellow position gets
> mixed w/ ltMag and ltCyan-thank's Paul).
> 
> Here is my question:
> 
> Are these papers really long-lasting, as far as avoiding a shift of the paper
> towards yellow over time(1-2yrs)? Also, now that people have had some time
> with the prints under window light tests, how do the paper bases look?  Is
> anyone finding any strange reactions with the Piezo inks and either of these
> papers over time?
> 
> Also, some papers buckle a bit in the middle under a mat, even at relatively
> small sizes and I'm curious if people are seeing the problem after an
> extended period or if anyone has heat mounted Piezo or MIS work, please give
> some comments.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Andy Darlow
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-12 by shashinka@aol.com

Hi Jerry:

Thanks for the info.  I really like the Epson Watercolor paper, over the 
brightcube sheets, mainly for its ability to punch up color from Generation 
inks.  Have you seen any yellowing of the paper base over the last 6 months 
or so?  I wonder if exposure to air is the main culprit in most paper's 
shift.  Don't people have comic books over 50 years old in pristine 
condition, only protected by some plastic?

Thanks,

Andy Darlow

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-12 by shashinka@aol.com

Hi Paul:

Thanks for taking so much time to answer every one of my questions.  I'll 
accept acid neutral or slightly acidic, just not very acidic.  

-EAM shifts, on average, about 3 units (of the 256 level, 8-bit scale).  This
-seems average.  I have no idea how this relates to display under normal
-conditions.

Did the 3 point on EAM shift stop after a while, because if so, i'm not all 
that concerned.

----------------

>... some papers buckle a bit in the middle under a mat, even at relatively
>small sizes

I hang 16x20 EAM prints with 2 tapes, matted, and they have stayed perfect.

Sorry, what does 2 tapes mean?  Top and bottom?  Just white adhesive acid 
free tape?

-----------------------

>... heat mounted Piezo or MIS work ...

-but I have a Generations color on Epson
Photo Quality Ink Jet paper that was dry mounted.  

Funny, I was thinking of doing the same because that paper is quite unique 
with Gen inks and whatever one mounts it to will make it a new kind of image. 
 That paper is really acidic, I think.

All the best!

-Andy


Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
 >>

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-12 by Paul Roark

>>EAM shifts, on average, about 3 units (of the 256 level, 8-bit scale).
>>This seems average.  I have no idea how this relates to
>>display under normal conditions.

>Did the 3 point on EAM shift stop after a while, because if so, i'm not all
>that concerned.

Yes, it starts to shift rapidly at first then seems to stabilize at about 3.

Most of the changes I observe in the fade testing is fastest at first and
then slows or stops.  With the yellowing of the paper, I think it is mostly
a light effect -- perhaps bleaching of whitener.



----------------

>... some papers buckle a bit in the middle under a mat, even at relatively
>small sizes

>>I hang 16x20 EAM prints with 2 tapes, matted, and they have stayed
perfect.

> what does 2 tapes mean?  Top and bottom?  Just white adhesive acid
free tape?

I use Light Impressions acid free tape at the top in two spots.  The print
hangs free from them.  I dislike using dry mount tissue.  The ability to
tape-hang 16x20 prints with no waviness is a big advantage of inkjets over
silver prints as far as I am concerned.

-----------------------

>... heat mounted Piezo or MIS work ...

>>but I have a Generations color on Epson
>>Photo Quality Ink Jet paper that was dry mounted.

>...That paper is really acidic, I think.

No, I think it is acid free -- Once again showing the lack of correlation if
not reverse correlation between being "acid free" and having good image
permanence.  I'll bet the bottom line is that cheap buffering that fools the
pens just doesn't get at the real problem.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-12 by SKID Photography

shashinka@... wrote:

> <snip>  I really like the Epson Watercolor paper, over the
> brightcube sheets, mainly for its ability to punch up color from Generation
> inks.  Have you seen any yellowing of the paper base over the last 6 months
> or so?  I wonder if exposure to air is the main culprit in most paper's
> shift.

The yellowing is the instability of the optical brighteners.  It is not exposure to air, but rather light that
causes the problem.  The very act of brightening causes the degradation.

There are very few papers that do not contain optical brighteners. Those which don't are a more 'creamy' white
than bright white in color.  The only way to get a bright white paper is by using OBs, but then there is the
instability probelm.

> Don't people have comic books over 50 years old in pristine
> condition, only protected by some plastic?

Unless the comics have been treated with a buffering agent, they will yellow, whether protected in plastic or
kept in the dark...Comic book paper is almost the same as newsprint, filled with acids that causes the
brittleness and yellowing.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-12 by Paul Roark

>>I hang 16x20 EAM prints with 2 tapes, matted, and they have stayed
perfect.

>Do you mean 13x19 on 16x20 mats?

Andy,

I use just two tapes on a 17x22 piece of EAM that I've cut from a 24" roll.
The image size is 16x20 inches. (Epson 3000 printer)  I use Light
Impressions' pre-cut 15.5x19.5 window mattes that are 22x28" exterior
dimensions.  I really don't like spending too much time in matting and
framing.  So, I like the efficiency of using the pre-cut mattes and just
taping the images in.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Epson papers and ACID

2001-11-12 by mh@toomanyartists.com

As far as I have been told by many people,  ALL epson papers have acid except for the 
Fine Art Smooth (and rough) made by Crane.

Epson watercolor will probably be one of the first to go bad down the line (in years) and 
should not be used for any prints that you are selling.

-mikeH



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >... heat mounted Piezo or MIS work ...
> 
> >>but I have a Generations color on Epson
> >>Photo Quality Ink Jet paper that was dry mounted.
> 
> >...That paper is really acidic, I think.
> 
> No, I think it is acid free -- Once again showing the lack of correlation if
> not reverse correlation between being "acid free" and having good image
> permanence.  I'll bet the bottom line is that cheap buffering that fools the
> pens just doesn't get at the real problem.
> 
> Paul

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-12 by shashinka@aol.com

In a message dated 11/11/01 12:26:26 AM, steadmanuhlich@... writes:

<< How are you getting the 24x30 prints...that is what printer?

That was from a 7000 and I'm now switching to min 225gsm papers to save on 
mounting costs.

>190gsm  is a little light to stand on its own.  And how are you currently 
mounting them to a mat?

Just taped to the mat on the back and top.

>As for acid...everyone has a different opinion...mine is that the pens are 
accurate enough to tell when the paper is acid...which is what the pens tell 
us about those two papers.  This was discussed in detail on the PiezoBW list 
in about June or July as I recall. 

S. >>

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-12 by shashinka@aol.com

In a message dated 11/12/01 12:41:38 AM, paul.roark@... writes:

<< Andy,

I use just two tapes on a 17x22 piece of EAM that I've cut from a 24" roll.
The image size is 16x20 inches. (Epson 3000 printer)  I use Light
Impressions' pre-cut 15.5x19.5 window mattes that are 22x28" exterior
dimensions.  I really don't like spending too much time in matting and
framing.  So, I like the efficiency of using the pre-cut mattes and just
taping the images in.

Paul
 >>

Thanks Paul,

I didn't realize EAM was available for some time in 24" rolls.  Where do you 
purchase it?  Now it is Enhanced matte, at least at the 36"/44".

-Andy

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-12 by Paul Roark

Andy,

>I didn't realize EAM was available for some time in 24" rolls.
>Where do you purchase it?  Now it is Enhanced matte,
>at least at the 36"/44".

I called the head of the Epson Pro Graphics department and was trying to
encourage them to release the rolls at the beginning of summer.  His
response was to simply give me a 24" roll EAM (now "Enhanced" matte, I
guess).  Of course, he assumed I was a 7500 user.  I could hear the groans
when I told him what I was up to.  Nonetheless, the roll did show up at my
doorstep.

So, I don't know where one buys the rolls.  I've never seen them listed
anywhere.

Paul

In a message dated 11/12/01 12:41:38 AM, paul.roark@... writes:

<< Andy,

I use just two tapes on a 17x22 piece of EAM that I've cut from a 24" roll.
The image size is 16x20 inches. (Epson 3000 printer)  I use Light
Impressions' pre-cut 15.5x19.5 window mattes that are 22x28" exterior
dimensions.  I really don't like spending too much time in matting and
framing.  So, I like the efficiency of using the pre-cut mattes and just
taping the images in.

Paul
>>

Re: [Digital BW] Epson papers and ACID

2001-11-13 by SKID Photography

mh@... wrote:

>
> As far as I have been told by many people,  ALL epson papers have acid except for the
> Fine Art Smooth (and rough) made by Crane.

The above is correct. The reason that they are changing the name of Epson Archival Matte paper is that there
were legal ramifications to using the name 'archival'....and that paper is not.

The only papers that can be considered stable over the long run are all rag (not wood pulp) and without
optical brighteners.  That leaves Museo, the aforementioned SFA (made by Crane for Epson) and one other paper
made by Hawk Mountain (sorry, I'm not sure which one).

Finally, I think it is accepted that the 200 year claim of permanence by Epson is more market and wishful
thinking than reality.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC




>
>
> Epson watercolor will probably be one of the first to go bad down the line (in years) and
> should not be used for any prints that you are selling.
>
> -mikeH
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > >... heat mounted Piezo or MIS work ...
> >
> > >>but I have a Generations color on Epson
> > >>Photo Quality Ink Jet paper that was dry mounted.
> >
> > >...That paper is really acidic, I think.
> >
> > No, I think it is acid free -- Once again showing the lack of correlation if
> > not reverse correlation between being "acid free" and having good image
> > permanence.  I'll bet the bottom line is that cheap buffering that fools the
> > pens just doesn't get at the real problem.
> >
> > Paul








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-13 by SKID Photography

shashinka@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 11/11/01 12:26:26 AM, steadmanuhlich@... writes:
>
> <snip>
>
> >As for acid...everyone has a different opinion...mine is that the pens are
> accurate enough to tell when the paper is acid...which is what the pens tell
> us about those two papers.  This was discussed in detail on the PiezoBW list
> in about June or July as I recall.

Well, it might have been discussed on another list, that does not make anything fact.  I for one do not think
you can trust those pens by themselves.  Archivalness is about more than just acid free.  If the paper base is
wood pulp, and has been buffered, it might read as acid free at the moment, but in fact, is not archival or
acid free.

The latest studies show that the buffering agents react very poorly with inkjet inks and should be avoided if
one is looking for long term paper/print stability.  Just as one should avoid optical brighteners.

In the FWIW department:  Read the pdf file: 'Stability Issues and Test Methods for Ink Jet Materials, Barbara
Vogt, Department of Image Engineering, University of Applied Science, Cologne'.  Be aware that it is a 62 page
thesis on the below site:

http://www.geocities.com/mortenryhl/index.html

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Epson papers and ACID

2001-11-13 by Maris V. Lidaka, Sr.

And Concorde Rag sold by inkjetart.com - 100% Cotton and Acid free, though I don't know about optical brighteners but I doubt it considering its color.

Maris
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "SKID Photography" <skid@bway.net>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson papers and ACID


| mh@... wrote:
| 
| >
| > As far as I have been told by many people,  ALL epson papers have acid except for the
| > Fine Art Smooth (and rough) made by Crane.
| 
| The above is correct. The reason that they are changing the name of Epson Archival Matte paper is that there
| were legal ramifications to using the name 'archival'....and that paper is not.
| 
| The only papers that can be considered stable over the long run are all rag (not wood pulp) and without
| optical brighteners.  That leaves Museo, the aforementioned SFA (made by Crane for Epson) and one other paper
| made by Hawk Mountain (sorry, I'm not sure which one).
| 
| Finally, I think it is accepted that the 200 year claim of permanence by Epson is more market and wishful
| thinking than reality.
| 
| Harvey Ferdschneider
| partner, SKID Photography, NYC
| 
| 
| 
| 
| >
| >
| > Epson watercolor will probably be one of the first to go bad down the line (in years) and
| > should not be used for any prints that you are selling.
| >
| > -mikeH
| >
| >
| >
| > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
| > > >... heat mounted Piezo or MIS work ...
| > >
| > > >>but I have a Generations color on Epson
| > > >>Photo Quality Ink Jet paper that was dry mounted.
| > >
| > > >...That paper is really acidic, I think.
| > >
| > > No, I think it is acid free -- Once again showing the lack of correlation if
| > > not reverse correlation between being "acid free" and having good image
| > > permanence.  I'll bet the bottom line is that cheap buffering that fools the
| > > pens just doesn't get at the real problem.
| > >
| > > Paul
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
| [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 
| 
| 
| Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
| 
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
| 
| Please follow these basic guidelines:
| - Include your full name with your message.
| - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
| - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
| - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
| - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
| - Complete your Yahoo profile.
| - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 
| 
| 
|  
| 
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
| 
| 
|

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-13 by Todd Flashner

on 11/12/01 11:28 PM, SKID Photography wrote:

> The latest studies show that the buffering agents react very poorly with
> inkjet inks and should be avoided if
> one is looking for long term paper/print stability.  Just as one should avoid
> optical brighteners.

Harvey

Could you elaborate on what you know about optical brighteners being
detrimental to inkjet prints? As I understand it (which is not much) the OBs
fade and the paper will yellow, but is it anything more detrimental than
that? The papers which don't have OBs are already somewhat yellow, so I'm
not sure you'd any worse off with OBs down the road. The non OB paper would
always be warm while an OB paper would creep "white" to warm.

What I suspect has the greatest impact on longevity is the coatings of these
papers, but they gets little discussed. Anybody have any way to comprehend
their impact on our prints?

Just fishing for info.

Todd

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-13 by SKID Photography

Todd Flashner wrote:

> on 11/12/01 11:28 PM, SKID Photography wrote:
>
> > The latest studies show that the buffering agents react very poorly with
> > inkjet inks and should be avoided if
> > one is looking for long term paper/print stability.  Just as one should avoid
> > optical brighteners.
>
> Harvey
>
> Could you elaborate on what you know about optical brighteners being
> detrimental to inkjet prints? As I understand it (which is not much) the OBs
> fade and the paper will yellow, but is it anything more detrimental than
> that? The papers which don't have OBs are already somewhat yellow, so I'm
> not sure you'd any worse off with OBs down the road. The non OB paper would
> always be warm while an OB paper would creep "white" to warm.
>
> What I suspect has the greatest impact on longevity is the coatings of these
> papers, but they gets little discussed. Anybody have any way to comprehend
> their impact on our prints?

Todd,
My understanding on all of this is limited, and what I know (beyond my old museum and photography experience
memory) comes from the paper:  Stability Issues and Test Methods for Ink Jet Materials, Barbara Vogt,
Department of Image Engineering, University of Applied Science, Cologne.  The url, where the 62 page pdf can
be downloaded:
http://www.geocities.com/mortenryhl/index.html

That said, I think that degraded optical brighteners are yellow, but that the high end, non brightened papers
are more 'creamy' (not yellow).  And that most papers that are brightened do not start off as bright as the
high end 'archival' papers (like Museo or Epson Smooth Fine Art).  And *that* would lead me to believe (and
this is total supposition on my part) that after the OBs degrade, the resulting base paper would be less
bright than the high end ones.

As far as your suspicion that the coatings are the 'weakest link' in image stability I'm not sure.   The whole
stew of acids, paper pulps, coatings, pigment vs. dye inks, humidity, light exposure, heat, ink particle size,
buffering agents, ink colors reacting with one another etc. all enter into the mix....Scary monsters!

Check out the thesis above, it's very interesting.  What I really got out of it was that no one knows yet, but
that soon, more will be revealled.  Frustrating, yes.  But...It's all new technology.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-13 by Todd Flashner

Thanks Harvey,

What you say about OBs does jive with my suspicions too. I looked at that
report once but it made me whoosy. Like you say, too many variables.

At this point I use a rag paper with OBs and shoot for something that looks
good now. You know, I do the best I can on longevity without compromising my
aesthetics. But I'm certainly not married to any of it. I could change my
mind tomorrow.

But for now, as far as yellowing and aging goes, I'm just gonna suck it up
and take it. Aged has charm, right? It might not be long before I can sell
my prints at "vintage" prices. ;-)

Todd
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Todd,
> My understanding on all of this is limited, and what I know (beyond my old
> museum and photography experience
> memory) comes from the paper:  Stability Issues and Test Methods for Ink Jet
> Materials, Barbara Vogt,
> Department of Image Engineering, University of Applied Science, Cologne.  The
> url, where the 62 page pdf can
> be downloaded:
> http://www.geocities.com/mortenryhl/index.html
> 
> That said, I think that degraded optical brighteners are yellow, but that the
> high end, non brightened papers
> are more 'creamy' (not yellow).  And that most papers that are brightened do
> not start off as bright as the
> high end 'archival' papers (like Museo or Epson Smooth Fine Art).  And *that*
> would lead me to believe (and
> this is total supposition on my part) that after the OBs degrade, the
> resulting base paper would be less
> bright than the high end ones.
> 
> As far as your suspicion that the coatings are the 'weakest link' in image
> stability I'm not sure.   The whole
> stew of acids, paper pulps, coatings, pigment vs. dye inks, humidity, light
> exposure, heat, ink particle size,
> buffering agents, ink colors reacting with one another etc. all enter into the
> mix....Scary monsters!
> 
> Check out the thesis above, it's very interesting.  What I really got out of
> it was that no one knows yet, but
> that soon, more will be revealled.  Frustrating, yes.  But...It's all new
> technology.
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-13 by Carolyn Frayn

I figure that as our eyes yellow and age, our prints should too! :-D

Carolyn


> Thanks Harvey,

snip
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> But for now, as far as yellowing and aging goes, I'm just gonna suck it up
> and take it. Aged has charm, right? It might not be long before I can sell
> my prints at "vintage" prices. ;-)

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-13 by SKID Photography

Todd,
Yeah, it took me a long time to plow through most of the paper...I have not actually finished it yet either.
:-(  But...I'm trying.  An then there are the scientific parts that I don't understand, but hey, that's ok as
well.

On the OB front:  I think that the larger one makes a print, the less important the extreme brightness becomes
(of course this could also be dependent on subject matter as well), and the less important a slight paper
texture makes.

In reading the above sentence over, it seems a bit garbled, but we had a big shoot today, and I'm feeling a
bit fried, sorry.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC


Todd Flashner wrote:

> Thanks Harvey,
>
> What you say about OBs does jive with my suspicions too. I looked at that
> report once but it made me whoosy. Like you say, too many variables.
>
> At this point I use a rag paper with OBs and shoot for something that looks
> good now. You know, I do the best I can on longevity without compromising my
> aesthetics. But I'm certainly not married to any of it. I could change my
> mind tomorrow.
>
> But for now, as far as yellowing and aging goes, I'm just gonna suck it up
> and take it. Aged has charm, right? It might not be long before I can sell
> my prints at "vintage" prices. ;-)
>
> Todd
>
>
> > Todd,
> > My understanding on all of this is limited, and what I know (beyond my old
> > museum and photography experience
> > memory) comes from the paper:  Stability Issues and Test Methods for Ink Jet
> > Materials, Barbara Vogt,
> > Department of Image Engineering, University of Applied Science, Cologne.  The
> > url, where the 62 page pdf can
> > be downloaded:
> > http://www.geocities.com/mortenryhl/index.html
> >
> > That said, I think that degraded optical brighteners are yellow, but that the
> > high end, non brightened papers
> > are more 'creamy' (not yellow).  And that most papers that are brightened do
> > not start off as bright as the
> > high end 'archival' papers (like Museo or Epson Smooth Fine Art).  And *that*
> > would lead me to believe (and
> > this is total supposition on my part) that after the OBs degrade, the
> > resulting base paper would be less
> > bright than the high end ones.
> >
> > As far as your suspicion that the coatings are the 'weakest link' in image
> > stability I'm not sure.   The whole
> > stew of acids, paper pulps, coatings, pigment vs. dye inks, humidity, light
> > exposure, heat, ink particle size,
> > buffering agents, ink colors reacting with one another etc. all enter into the
> > mix....Scary monsters!
> >
> > Check out the thesis above, it's very interesting.  What I really got out of
> > it was that no one knows yet, but
> > that soon, more will be revealled.  Frustrating, yes.  But...It's all new
> > technology.
> >
> > Harvey Ferdschneider
> > partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-13 by Todd Flashner

Does that have any relationship to my bloodshot prints from Sunday?

Todd
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I figure that as our eyes yellow and age, our prints should too! :-D
> 
> Carolyn
> 
> 
>> Thanks Harvey,
> 
> snip
>> But for now, as far as yellowing and aging goes, I'm just gonna suck it up
>> and take it. Aged has charm, right? It might not be long before I can sell
>> my prints at "vintage" prices. ;-)

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-13 by shashinka@aol.com

In a message dated 11/12/01 12:59:32 PM, paul.roark@... writes:

<< Of course, he assumed I was a 7500 user.  I could hear the groans
when I told him what I was up to.  Nonetheless, the roll did show up at my
doorstep.

So, I don't know where one buys the rolls.  I've never seen them listed
anywhere.

Paul >>

Hi Paul:

I just looked at a site and they call it Endurance Matte.  Maybe I read it 
wrong.  I was told that we should see it available by about now.

All the best!

-Andy

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-13 by Todd Flashner

on 11/13/01 11:34 AM, shashinka@... wrote:

> I just looked at a site and they call it Endurance Matte.  Maybe I read it
> wrong.  I was told that we should see it available by about now.
> 

Sounds like something I'd expect to see on the floors of gyms.

Todd

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-13 by Bill Morse

Andy, what site was that?

Thanks,

Bill

on 11/13/01 11:34 AM, shashinka@... wrote:

I just looked at a site and they call it Endurance Matte.  Maybe I read it
wrong.  I was told that we should see it available by about now.

All the best!

-Andy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-14 by shashinka@aol.com

In a message dated 11/13/01 6:00:53 PM, willym@... writes:

<< Andy, what site was that?

Thanks,

Bill

on 11/13/01 11:34 AM, shashinka@... wrote:

I just looked at a site and they call it Endurance Matte.  Maybe I read it
wrong.  I was told that we should see it available by about now. >>
--------

Hi Bill,

Here's the site:

http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/archive/IJN_09-28-01.html

Re: [Digital BW] EAM and Epson WC paper & mounting

2001-11-14 by Todd Flashner

> Here's the site:
> 
> http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/dg/news/archive/IJN_09-28-01.html

I snatched the below from the site and it scares me. At least Epson is
willing to admit when a paper is better suited to a dye or pigment ink, but
as many inks are hybrids which contain both, and most manufacturers don't
tell you what type of ink their coatings are geared toward, it's virtually
impossible to match paper to ink if you cross brands. I hate it.

Todd


ARCHIVAL MATTE is NOT recommended for DYE-BASED INK, i.e. the 1270/1280 ink!
As you know, Epson's "Archival Matte" paper was introduced in April 2000
with the Epson 2000P, and was given their highest longevity rating of over
200 years. Because the paper was rated so highly with pigmented inks, and
because it produced slightly richer blacks than the Epson Matte Paper Heavy
Weight (not to mention its slightly heavier weight than the MPHW), many
1270/1280 users have turned to this paper as one of their favorites.
Unfortunately, Archival Matte's coating chemistry is not suitable for the
dye-based 1270/1280 inks, and will give you less longevity (maybe only 10
years) than Epson's MPHW, which is rated about 25 years. Paul Lukacs,
Epson's Assistant Product Manager of Pro Media & Supplies, sited this as
another example of how inks and papers must be carefully matched and tested,
and one cannot just assume that one paper will work well with another inkset
just because it tested well with one.

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