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Neutral Curve for QTR

Neutral Curve for QTR

2004-12-06 by Richard Smallfield

Hi, I've recently installed QTR for XP and notice that there is no neutral curve. I wondered what people had found the best mix of tones was to get a perfectly neutral curve for EEM/HPR?

I've just experimented with 25% cool Selenium and 75% Warm and with small prints, and it looks pretty good. However, I've found that with 10x15" prints any slight tonal bias becomes much more noticeable.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

thanks,
Richard
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com

   "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, 
   is to fill the world with fools."
   --Herbert Spencer

Re: Neutral Curve for QTR

2004-12-06 by chipcarterdc

FYI, I've asked this question before.  As I understand it, the creator of QTR has 
decided that blending of the various curves to achieve each user's view of 
"neutrality" is the better method, rather than providing a "canned" neutral 
curve.  (It's been a long time since I asked this question, so forgive me if I'm 
misremembering what Roy said in response).  That's a fair view, but I still think 
that, as good as QTR is, it would be helpful to have a canned neutral curve.  
I've dipped into QTR from time to time, and even paid the shareware fee, but 
generally use ImagePrint for my 9600,  particularly since I need some of IP's 
other features in addition to neutral grayscale.  On my 4000, I plan to use QTR 
in the future for B&W -- for the moment, it's not an issue since I print my B&W 
on the 9600 via ImagePrint.

The other answer I got in response to this question (not from Roy, but from 
other group members) was along the lines of "you just have to linearize the 
whatchamacallit and build your own neutral curve using a spectrograph 
thingy."  (As you can tell, I don't recall exactly what the response was, but it 
was over my head).  Since I don't know what "linearize" means and don't have 
any measuring tools of my own and don't know how to build my own QTR 
curves, this wasn't practical for me. 

Finally, I got various suggestions on how to combine curves to get a neutral 
tone (25% of this, 75% of that).  I tried and still was not able to come up with a 
curve I considered neutral gray.  (But I'm sure I'll delve into it again someday).  
I do suggest that you  try various combinations to see if you can come up with 
a tone you consider neutral.

Last point: for what you pay for QTR (very little) and how good of a job it does 
generally, I think it's an outstanding piece of software.  But I still wish it had a 
canned neutral curve.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Smallfield <
r.smallfield@p...> wrote:
> Hi, I've recently installed QTR for XP and notice that there is no neutral 
curve. I wondered what people had found the best mix of tones was to get a 
perfectly neutral curve for EEM/HPR?
> 
> I've just experimented with 25% cool Selenium and 75% Warm and with 
small prints, and it looks pretty good. However, I've found that with 10x15" 
prints any slight tonal bias becomes much more noticeable.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
> 
> thanks,
> Richard
> --
> http://smallfield.vze.com
> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
> 
>    "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, 
>    is to fill the world with fools."
>    --Herbert Spencer

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Neutral Curve for QTR

2004-12-06 by Carl Schofield

Neutrality is achieved with the UC inks by adjusting the proportions of 
light black, light cyan, and light magenta inks used for the print.  
This adjustment can be more precisely achieved for a user's particular 
printer, inks, and paper by blending the warm/cool profiles than by 
using a generic "neutral" profile made with a different printer, inks, 
and paper.  Note also that current QTR profiles do not neutralize the 
black ink (either matte K or Photo K, depending on which papers used) 
so absolute neutrality is only obtained up through the midtones before 
the black ink kicks in at around 75%.  In the deep shadows where K is 
the predominant ink the tone will be slightly warmer because of the 
inherent warmth of both the matte black and photo black inks.  This 
tonal shift from neutral midtones (with the right blend of warm/cool 
profiles) to warmer shadows will be most noticeable on RC papers 
because of the extreme warm brown tone of the Epson Photo black ink.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Dec 6, 2004, at 2:46 PM, chipcarterdc wrote:

>
>
> FYI, I've asked this question before.  As I understand it, the creator 
> of QTR has
> decided that blending of the various curves to achieve each user's 
> view of
> "neutrality" is the better method, rather than providing a "canned" 
> neutral
> curve.  (It's been a long time since I asked this question, so forgive 
> me if I'm
> misremembering what Roy said in response).  That's a fair view, but I 
> still think
> that, as good as QTR is, it would be helpful to have a canned neutral 
> curve.
> I've dipped into QTR from time to time, and even paid the shareware 
> fee, but
> generally use ImagePrint for my 9600,  particularly since I need some 
> of IP's
> other features in addition to neutral grayscale.  On my 4000, I plan 
> to use QTR
> in the future for B&W -- for the moment, it's not an issue since I 
> print my B&W
> on the 9600 via ImagePrint.
>
> The other answer I got in response to this question (not from Roy, but 
> from
> other group members) was along the lines of "you just have to 
> linearize the
> whatchamacallit and build your own neutral curve using a spectrograph
> thingy."  (As you can tell, I don't recall exactly what the response 
> was, but it
> was over my head).  Since I don't know what "linearize" means and 
> don't have
> any measuring tools of my own and don't know how to build my own QTR
> curves, this wasn't practical for me.
>
> Finally, I got various suggestions on how to combine curves to get a 
> neutral
> tone (25% of this, 75% of that).  I tried and still was not able to 
> come up with a
> curve I considered neutral gray.  (But I'm sure I'll delve into it 
> again someday).
> I do suggest that you  try various combinations to see if you can come 
> up with
> a tone you consider neutral.
>
> Last point: for what you pay for QTR (very little) and how good of a 
> job it does
> generally, I think it's an outstanding piece of software.  But I still 
> wish it had a
> canned neutral curve.
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard 
> Smallfield <
> r.smallfield@p...> wrote:
>> Hi, I've recently installed QTR for XP and notice that there is no 
>> neutral
> curve. I wondered what people had found the best mix of tones was to 
> get a
> perfectly neutral curve for EEM/HPR?
>>
>> I've just experimented with 25% cool Selenium and 75% Warm and with
> small prints, and it looks pretty good. However, I've found that with 
> 10x15"
> prints any slight tonal bias becomes much more noticeable.
>>
>> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Richard
>> --
>> http://smallfield.vze.com
>> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
>>
>>    "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly,
>>    is to fill the world with fools."
>>    --Herbert Spencer
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
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> Files section:
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>
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> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
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> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Digital BW] Re: Neutral Curve for QTR

2004-12-06 by johnglodge

All that is fine but the original query did say XP; and for XP the
profiles are delivered canned: no access to the profile compiler!

...John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@m...> wrote:
> Neutrality is achieved with the UC inks by adjusting the proportions of 
> light black, light cyan, and light magenta inks used for the print.  
> This adjustment can be more precisely achieved for a user's particular 
> printer, inks, and paper by blending the warm/cool profiles than by 
> using a generic "neutral" profile made with a different printer, inks, 
> and paper.  Note also that current QTR profiles do not neutralize the 
> black ink (either matte K or Photo K, depending on which papers used) 
> so absolute neutrality is only obtained up through the midtones before 
> the black ink kicks in at around 75%.  In the deep shadows where K is 
> the predominant ink the tone will be slightly warmer because of the 
> inherent warmth of both the matte black and photo black inks.  This 
> tonal shift from neutral midtones (with the right blend of warm/cool 
> profiles) to warmer shadows will be most noticeable on RC papers 
> because of the extreme warm brown tone of the Epson Photo black ink.
> 
> 
> On Dec 6, 2004, at 2:46 PM, chipcarterdc wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > FYI, I've asked this question before.  As I understand it, the
creator 
> > of QTR has
> > decided that blending of the various curves to achieve each user's 
> > view of
> > "neutrality" is the better method, rather than providing a "canned" 
> > neutral
> > curve.  (It's been a long time since I asked this question, so
forgive 
> > me if I'm
> > misremembering what Roy said in response).  That's a fair view, but I 
> > still think
> > that, as good as QTR is, it would be helpful to have a canned neutral 
> > curve.
> > I've dipped into QTR from time to time, and even paid the shareware 
> > fee, but
> > generally use ImagePrint for my 9600,  particularly since I need some 
> > of IP's
> > other features in addition to neutral grayscale.  On my 4000, I plan 
> > to use QTR
> > in the future for B&W -- for the moment, it's not an issue since I 
> > print my B&W
> > on the 9600 via ImagePrint.
> >
> > The other answer I got in response to this question (not from Roy,
but 
> > from
> > other group members) was along the lines of "you just have to 
> > linearize the
> > whatchamacallit and build your own neutral curve using a spectrograph
> > thingy."  (As you can tell, I don't recall exactly what the response 
> > was, but it
> > was over my head).  Since I don't know what "linearize" means and 
> > don't have
> > any measuring tools of my own and don't know how to build my own QTR
> > curves, this wasn't practical for me.
> >
> > Finally, I got various suggestions on how to combine curves to get a 
> > neutral
> > tone (25% of this, 75% of that).  I tried and still was not able to 
> > come up with a
> > curve I considered neutral gray.  (But I'm sure I'll delve into it 
> > again someday).
> > I do suggest that you  try various combinations to see if you can
come 
> > up with
> > a tone you consider neutral.
> >
> > Last point: for what you pay for QTR (very little) and how good of a 
> > job it does
> > generally, I think it's an outstanding piece of software.  But I
still 
> > wish it had a
> > canned neutral curve.
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard 
> > Smallfield <
> > r.smallfield@p...> wrote:
> >> Hi, I've recently installed QTR for XP and notice that there is no 
> >> neutral
> > curve. I wondered what people had found the best mix of tones was to 
> > get a
> > perfectly neutral curve for EEM/HPR?
> >>
> >> I've just experimented with 25% cool Selenium and 75% Warm and with
> > small prints, and it looks pretty good. However, I've found that with 
> > 10x15"
> > prints any slight tonal bias becomes much more noticeable.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >> Richard
> >> --
> >> http://smallfield.vze.com
> >> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
> >>
> >>    "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly,
> >>    is to fill the world with fools."
> >>    --Herbert Spencer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> > keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed
from 
> > the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> > removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> > Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
> > Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE
"OWNER" 
> > AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> > LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> > LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> > RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> > PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Neutral Curve for QTR

2004-12-06 by Carl Schofield

So why can't you blend profiles on XP?  You don't need the complier to 
make a neutral print using the stock cool and warm profiles.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Dec 6, 2004, at 4:46 PM, johnglodge wrote:

>
>
> All that is fine but the original query did say XP; and for XP the
> profiles are delivered canned: no access to the profile compiler!
>
> ...John
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@m...> wrote:
>> Neutrality is achieved with the UC inks by adjusting the proportions 
>> of
>> light black, light cyan, and light magenta inks used for the print.
>> This adjustment can be more precisely achieved for a user's particular
>> printer, inks, and paper by blending the warm/cool profiles than by
>> using a generic "neutral" profile made with a different printer, inks,
>> and paper.  Note also that current QTR profiles do not neutralize the
>> black ink (either matte K or Photo K, depending on which papers used)
>> so absolute neutrality is only obtained up through the midtones before
>> the black ink kicks in at around 75%.  In the deep shadows where K is
>> the predominant ink the tone will be slightly warmer because of the
>> inherent warmth of both the matte black and photo black inks.  This
>> tonal shift from neutral midtones (with the right blend of warm/cool
>> profiles) to warmer shadows will be most noticeable on RC papers
>> because of the extreme warm brown tone of the Epson Photo black ink.
>>
>>
>> On Dec 6, 2004, at 2:46 PM, chipcarterdc wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> FYI, I've asked this question before.  As I understand it, the
> creator
>>> of QTR has
>>> decided that blending of the various curves to achieve each user's
>>> view of
>>> "neutrality" is the better method, rather than providing a "canned"
>>> neutral
>>> curve.  (It's been a long time since I asked this question, so
> forgive
>>> me if I'm
>>> misremembering what Roy said in response).  That's a fair view, but I
>>> still think
>>> that, as good as QTR is, it would be helpful to have a canned neutral
>>> curve.
>>> I've dipped into QTR from time to time, and even paid the shareware
>>> fee, but
>>> generally use ImagePrint for my 9600,  particularly since I need some
>>> of IP's
>>> other features in addition to neutral grayscale.  On my 4000, I plan
>>> to use QTR
>>> in the future for B&W -- for the moment, it's not an issue since I
>>> print my B&W
>>> on the 9600 via ImagePrint.
>>>
>>> The other answer I got in response to this question (not from Roy,
> but
>>> from
>>> other group members) was along the lines of "you just have to
>>> linearize the
>>> whatchamacallit and build your own neutral curve using a spectrograph
>>> thingy."  (As you can tell, I don't recall exactly what the response
>>> was, but it
>>> was over my head).  Since I don't know what "linearize" means and
>>> don't have
>>> any measuring tools of my own and don't know how to build my own QTR
>>> curves, this wasn't practical for me.
>>>
>>> Finally, I got various suggestions on how to combine curves to get a
>>> neutral
>>> tone (25% of this, 75% of that).  I tried and still was not able to
>>> come up with a
>>> curve I considered neutral gray.  (But I'm sure I'll delve into it
>>> again someday).
>>> I do suggest that you  try various combinations to see if you can
> come
>>> up with
>>> a tone you consider neutral.
>>>
>>> Last point: for what you pay for QTR (very little) and how good of a
>>> job it does
>>> generally, I think it's an outstanding piece of software.  But I
> still
>>> wish it had a
>>> canned neutral curve.
>>>
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard
>>> Smallfield <
>>> r.smallfield@p...> wrote:
>>>> Hi, I've recently installed QTR for XP and notice that there is no
>>>> neutral
>>> curve. I wondered what people had found the best mix of tones was to
>>> get a
>>> perfectly neutral curve for EEM/HPR?
>>>>
>>>> I've just experimented with 25% cool Selenium and 75% Warm and with
>>> small prints, and it looks pretty good. However, I've found that with
>>> 10x15"
>>> prints any slight tonal bias becomes much more noticeable.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> thanks,
>>>> Richard
>>>> --
>>>> http://smallfield.vze.com
>>>> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
>>>>
>>>>    "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly,
>>>>    is to fill the world with fools."
>>>>    --Herbert Spencer

[Digital BW] Re: Neutral Curve for QTR

2004-12-07 by e5bowman

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
<snip>
> In the deep shadows where K is 
> the predominant ink the tone will be slightly warmer because of 
> the inherent warmth of both the matte black and photo black inks.  
> This tonal shift from neutral midtones (with the right blend of 
> warm/cool profiles) to warmer shadows will be most noticeable on 
> RC papers because of the extreme warm brown tone of the Epson 
> Photo black ink.


Is this why my prints on Luster, Semigloss, and Ilford Glossy look 
so warm with an even mix of "cool" and "warm"? (I'm using the 
semigloss profiles in the latest version.)  The prints on EEM look 
much more neutral.

(To head off a few potential questions:  I'm using Matte K on EEM, 
and Photo K on the RC papers; Epson 2200 printer; and WinXP.)

I like the look somewhat - it reminds me of the UT2 "carbon" look - 
but it would be nice to get back to "gray" if I wanted.

Eric

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Neutral Curve for QTR

2004-12-07 by Carl Schofield

If the entire print looks warm then change the blend to something like 
30% warm : 70% cool.  If just the shadows look warm then it is probably 
the un-neutralized Photo black ink.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Dec 6, 2004, at 8:40 PM, e5bowman wrote:

>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@m...> wrote:
> <snip>
>> In the deep shadows where K is
>> the predominant ink the tone will be slightly warmer because of
>> the inherent warmth of both the matte black and photo black inks.
>> This tonal shift from neutral midtones (with the right blend of
>> warm/cool profiles) to warmer shadows will be most noticeable on
>> RC papers because of the extreme warm brown tone of the Epson
>> Photo black ink.
>
>
> Is this why my prints on Luster, Semigloss, and Ilford Glossy look
> so warm with an even mix of "cool" and "warm"? (I'm using the
> semigloss profiles in the latest version.)  The prints on EEM look
> much more neutral.
>
> (To head off a few potential questions:  I'm using Matte K on EEM,
> and Photo K on the RC papers; Epson 2200 printer; and WinXP.)
>
> I like the look somewhat - it reminds me of the UT2 "carbon" look -
> but it would be nice to get back to "gray" if I wanted.
>
> Eric

[Digital BW] Re: Neutral Curve for QTR

2004-12-07 by johnglodge

Yes of course you can blend profiles but not the next step of
adjusting the amount of light black, light cyan and light magenta as
you said.

...John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@m...> wrote:
> So why can't you blend profiles on XP?  You don't need the complier to 
> make a neutral print using the stock cool and warm profiles.
> 
> On Dec 6, 2004, at 4:46 PM, johnglodge wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > All that is fine but the original query did say XP; and for XP the
> > profiles are delivered canned: no access to the profile compiler!
> >
> > ...John
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> > <scho@m...> wrote:
> >> Neutrality is achieved with the UC inks by adjusting the proportions 
> >> of
> >> light black, light cyan, and light magenta inks used for the print.
> >> This adjustment can be more precisely achieved for a user's
particular
> >> printer, inks, and paper by blending the warm/cool profiles than by
> >> using a generic "neutral" profile made with a different printer,
inks,
> >> and paper.  Note also that current QTR profiles do not neutralize the
> >> black ink (either matte K or Photo K, depending on which papers used)
> >> so absolute neutrality is only obtained up through the midtones
before
> >> the black ink kicks in at around 75%.  In the deep shadows where K is
> >> the predominant ink the tone will be slightly warmer because of the
> >> inherent warmth of both the matte black and photo black inks.  This
> >> tonal shift from neutral midtones (with the right blend of warm/cool
> >> profiles) to warmer shadows will be most noticeable on RC papers
> >> because of the extreme warm brown tone of the Epson Photo black ink.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Dec 6, 2004, at 2:46 PM, chipcarterdc wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> FYI, I've asked this question before.  As I understand it, the
> > creator
> >>> of QTR has
> >>> decided that blending of the various curves to achieve each user's
> >>> view of
> >>> "neutrality" is the better method, rather than providing a "canned"
> >>> neutral
> >>> curve.  (It's been a long time since I asked this question, so
> > forgive
> >>> me if I'm
> >>> misremembering what Roy said in response).  That's a fair view,
but I
> >>> still think
> >>> that, as good as QTR is, it would be helpful to have a canned
neutral
> >>> curve.
> >>> I've dipped into QTR from time to time, and even paid the shareware
> >>> fee, but
> >>> generally use ImagePrint for my 9600,  particularly since I need
some
> >>> of IP's
> >>> other features in addition to neutral grayscale.  On my 4000, I plan
> >>> to use QTR
> >>> in the future for B&W -- for the moment, it's not an issue since I
> >>> print my B&W
> >>> on the 9600 via ImagePrint.
> >>>
> >>> The other answer I got in response to this question (not from Roy,
> > but
> >>> from
> >>> other group members) was along the lines of "you just have to
> >>> linearize the
> >>> whatchamacallit and build your own neutral curve using a
spectrograph
> >>> thingy."  (As you can tell, I don't recall exactly what the response
> >>> was, but it
> >>> was over my head).  Since I don't know what "linearize" means and
> >>> don't have
> >>> any measuring tools of my own and don't know how to build my own QTR
> >>> curves, this wasn't practical for me.
> >>>
> >>> Finally, I got various suggestions on how to combine curves to get a
> >>> neutral
> >>> tone (25% of this, 75% of that).  I tried and still was not able to
> >>> come up with a
> >>> curve I considered neutral gray.  (But I'm sure I'll delve into it
> >>> again someday).
> >>> I do suggest that you  try various combinations to see if you can
> > come
> >>> up with
> >>> a tone you consider neutral.
> >>>
> >>> Last point: for what you pay for QTR (very little) and how good of a
> >>> job it does
> >>> generally, I think it's an outstanding piece of software.  But I
> > still
> >>> wish it had a
> >>> canned neutral curve.
> >>>
> >>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard
> >>> Smallfield <
> >>> r.smallfield@p...> wrote:
> >>>> Hi, I've recently installed QTR for XP and notice that there is no
> >>>> neutral
> >>> curve. I wondered what people had found the best mix of tones was to
> >>> get a
> >>> perfectly neutral curve for EEM/HPR?
> >>>>
> >>>> I've just experimented with 25% cool Selenium and 75% Warm and with
> >>> small prints, and it looks pretty good. However, I've found that
with
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >>> 10x15"
> >>> prints any slight tonal bias becomes much more noticeable.
> >>>>
> >>>> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
> >>>>
> >>>> thanks,
> >>>> Richard
> >>>> --
> >>>> http://smallfield.vze.com
> >>>> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
> >>>>
> >>>>    "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly,
> >>>>    is to fill the world with fools."
> >>>>    --Herbert Spencer

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Neutral Curve for QTR

2004-12-07 by Carl Schofield

That is essentially what you are doing by blending the warm (K+LK)  and 
cool (K+LK+LC+LM) profiles - adjusting the relative amounts of LK, LC, 
and LM to achieve neutrality.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Dec 6, 2004, at 10:00 PM, johnglodge wrote:

>
>
> Yes of course you can blend profiles but not the next step of
> adjusting the amount of light black, light cyan and light magenta as
> you said.
>
> ...John
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@m...> wrote:
>> So why can't you blend profiles on XP?  You don't need the complier to
>> make a neutral print using the stock cool and warm profiles.
>>
>> On Dec 6, 2004, at 4:46 PM, johnglodge wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All that is fine but the original query did say XP; and for XP the
>>> profiles are delivered canned: no access to the profile compiler!
>>>
>>> ...John
>>>
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
>>> <scho@m...> wrote:
>>>> Neutrality is achieved with the UC inks by adjusting the proportions
>>>> of
>>>> light black, light cyan, and light magenta inks used for the print.
>>>> This adjustment can be more precisely achieved for a user's
> particular
>>>> printer, inks, and paper by blending the warm/cool profiles than by
>>>> using a generic "neutral" profile made with a different printer,
> inks,
>>>> and paper.  Note also that current QTR profiles do not neutralize 
>>>> the
>>>> black ink (either matte K or Photo K, depending on which papers 
>>>> used)
>>>> so absolute neutrality is only obtained up through the midtones
> before
>>>> the black ink kicks in at around 75%.  In the deep shadows where K 
>>>> is
>>>> the predominant ink the tone will be slightly warmer because of the
>>>> inherent warmth of both the matte black and photo black inks.  This
>>>> tonal shift from neutral midtones (with the right blend of warm/cool
>>>> profiles) to warmer shadows will be most noticeable on RC papers
>>>> because of the extreme warm brown tone of the Epson Photo black ink.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 6, 2004, at 2:46 PM, chipcarterdc wrote:

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