Digital BW, The Print

can anyone comment on the status and use of this product for B&W on a 
2200
see review here
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/gray-balancer.shtml

Several months ago I experimented with Epson Gray Balancer on the 
4000 and an Epson Gray Balancer Reference chart. It was easy to work 
with. Unfortunately, the degree of metamararism was unacceptable.  

Andrew  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "frankg_photo" 
<fh.gross@s...> wrote:
> 
> can anyone comment on the status and use of this product for B&W 
on a 
> 2200
> see review here
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/gray-
balancer.shtml

This is useless junk. Basically the R=G=B trajectory in NCA that is
the base for profiles with the Epson driver is very convoluted. Bill
Atkinson calls the outcome "color warbles" and if you search the net
with that key you will find his commentary on his struggles.

To actually make the grey that is grey using the grey balancer you
would need quite a few more reference points than are provided and if
more had been provided it would have been too complex to use.

In comparison using QuadToneRIP will maintain your sanity.

For real simple B&W though, using the Epson driver:
Photoenhance/monochrome or Color Controls/standard are not too bad but
do not compare to QTR.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "frankg_photo"
<fh.gross@s...> wrote:

> 
> can anyone comment on the status and use of this product for B&W on a 
> 2200
> see review here
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/gray-balancer.shtml

A waste of time.  Don't bother touching it.  Dropped from subsequent
products.

> From: frankg_photo <fh.gross@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:13:33 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Epson Gray Balancer
> 
> 
> 
> can anyone comment on the status and use of this product for B&W on a
> 2200
> see review here
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/gray-balancer.shtml
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See ³Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines² in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ³OWNER² AND
> ³MODERATORS² OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ³OWNER² AND ³MODERATORS² OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>

Agreed
To me, the only ways to get metamerism-free B&W are printing with
only black ink or with a RIP (I use QTR, but there are others).
I experimented with Gray Balancer and got improvement with a certain
constant light but felt that I went backwards in an other lightning.
Not worth the troube.
Cheers Esa

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> A waste of time.  Don't bother touching it.  Dropped from 
subsequent
> products.
> 
> 
> > From: frankg_photo <fh.gross@s...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:13:33 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Epson Gray Balancer
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > can anyone comment on the status and use of this product for B&W 
on a
> > 2200
> > see review here
> > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/gray-
balancer.shtml
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
the membership
> > without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from the
> > membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and
> > Moderators. See ³Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines² in the Files 
section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ³OWNER² 
AND
> > ³MODERATORS² OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ³OWNER² AND 
³MODERATORS² OF
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW,
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION 
OF YOUR
> > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
PARTY ON THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER 
RELATING TO THE

> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> >

I agree with this.  You can go mad or blind or both trying to use 
the graybalancer with just the naked eye.  Perhaps some with more 
experience in judging subtle colour shifts would find it easier than 
I.

But because the Epson driver tries to print a neutral tone by mixing 
the colours, you will get different results depending on what light 
you use to compare the graybalancer output against the control 
strips.  And that calibration will only be correct for prints viewed 
in that light.  Because you are mixing colours to get gray, 
metamerism of the Epson UC inks will mean that this supposedly 
neutral print will have a colour cast in other light.

AFAIUI, QTR takes a different approach.  It achieves a neutral tone 
by trying to colour adjust the typically warm tone of Epson black 
and gray inks.  I'm a little less clear about how it does light 
tones neutrally.

F_P


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "esasinkkonen" 
<esa.sinkkonen@1...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed
> To me, the only ways to get metamerism-free B&W are printing with
> only black ink or with a RIP (I use QTR, but there are others).
> I experimented with Gray Balancer and got improvement with a 
certain
> constant light but felt that I went backwards in an other 
lightning.
> Not worth the troube.
> Cheers Esa
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> > A waste of time.  Don't bother touching it.  Dropped from 
> subsequent
> > products.
> > 
> > 
> > > From: frankg_photo <fh.gross@s...>
> > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:13:33 -0000
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Epson Gray Balancer
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > can anyone comment on the status and use of this product for 
B&W 

> on a
> > > 2200
> > > see review here
> > > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/gray-
> balancer.shtml

<<Agreed
To me, the only ways to get metamerism-free B&W are 
printing with only black ink or with a RIP >>

I think this needs to be qualified to when using color
inksets.... there is no medtamerism when using
dedicated B/W inksets... such as UT2 or similar.

Jerry in Houston

Thanks for inportant correction
I refer only to Epson Ultra Crome inks.
Esa

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry in 
Houston <glewis4457@y...> wrote:

> <<Agreed
> To me, the only ways to get metamerism-free B&W are 
> printing with only black ink or with a RIP >>
> 
> I think this needs to be qualified to when using color
> inksets.... there is no medtamerism when using
> dedicated B/W inksets... such as UT2 or similar.
> 
> Jerry in Houston