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Digital BW, The Print

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Thread

Dmax of RC papers...yes!

Dmax of RC papers...yes!

2005-01-09 by claudej1@aol.com

In a message dated 1/7/2005 9:54:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:

> My next experiment with PSM is going to be tape-hanging a large piece 
> behind
> glass like I would a matte paper.  If it looks good (and most glossy papers
> don't due to not being totally flat) PSM might even replace the matte papers
> I've traditionally used for the "fine art" displays.  Dmax matters.
> 
> Paul
> 

I'm glad to see you share my enthusiasm for that the superior Dmax of RC from 
PK...MIS, Epson, or otherwise. I mean, after all, 0.3 to 0.6 extra density is 
1 to 2 dtops more dynamic range over the matte paper, even thought we do not 
vusually/emotionally discern this as well as instruements. 

I did a BO print on my 4000 on ESM and gave 2 light coats of spray lacquer 
(the stinky kind).

All my die-hard B&W darkroom buddies agreed it was the closed thing they had 
ever seen to an air dried FB print. Full scale, great sharpness, and superior 
tonal range and detail in the shadow. They were impressed.

Claude



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paper for coffee table book

2005-01-10 by Robert McArthur

I'm going to print my own "coffee table" book and would
like some assistance wrt paper. I'm using an Epson 2100
+ epson UC. At the moment the research indicates that
A3 (or A3+) creased is the way to go, providing 4xA4
per sheet and allowing one full A3 for each sewn 
signature. 

Ignoring ink choices (for the moment!),
I'm having trouble with a choice of paper. Obviously
it has to be double sided. Semi-gloss is possible or
matte. Sources seem to indicate that since, mostly,
books are kept closed and only rarely (relatively)
opened, longevity is less of an issue than for
hung prints (is this true?). Tissue between each
page is possible but not preferred. Handling marks
are an issue since pages will be turned.

So it seems I need a A3 semi-gloss or matte, DS with
high dmax (coffee table++ quality). At least half of the
book will be B&W and the other half colour. It would
be nicest to use the same paper for both parts but I
could change papers at the different signatures so
as long as they're mostly the same (ie. not textured
matte B&W vs semigloss colour).

The other thing is that places like Red River won't
ship anything outside the US, so any company that
has that attitude can't be used :-( This includes
Inkjetart, inksupply and I'm asking mediastreet and 
awaiting feedback. I do know places here in Australia
that sell epson (doh), hahnemuhle, somerset 225g and
just found a bockingford DS (no other information on
weight etc).

Anyone who has done this sort of thing (ie. books)
who has thoughts on paper weight as well as a
particular brand/manufacturer, or anything else
relevant - please speak up :-)

Thanks
Robert
PS. for the doubters: yes, I know it will be expensive 
(and, except for the exact paper price, I *do* know 
almost how much). No, I'm not going to use mypublisher 
or ofoto or any other place.
PPS. I went back a while in the archives searching but
couldn't find anything relevant.

Re: Paper for coffee table book

2005-01-10 by afotogal

There is a large Epson Center in Singapore, and there should be a 
decent source for paper in that area, you could try contacting them 
for local distributers. There is a double sided matte and also a 
double sided semi-gloss. I don't know if this company ships out of US 
but try them www.atlex.com.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Robert 
McArthur" <mcarthur@d...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I'm going to print my own "coffee table" book and would
> like some assistance wrt paper. I'm using an Epson 2100
> + epson UC. At the moment the research indicates that
> A3 (or A3+) creased is the way to go, providing 4xA4
> per sheet and allowing one full A3 for each sewn 
> signature. 
> 
> Ignoring ink choices (for the moment!),
> I'm having trouble with a choice of paper. Obviously
> it has to be double sided. Semi-gloss is possible or
> matte. Sources seem to indicate that since, mostly,
> books are kept closed and only rarely (relatively)
> opened, longevity is less of an issue than for
> hung prints (is this true?). Tissue between each
> page is possible but not preferred. Handling marks
> are an issue since pages will be turned.
> 
> So it seems I need a A3 semi-gloss or matte, DS with
> high dmax (coffee table++ quality). At least half of the
> book will be B&W and the other half colour. It would
> be nicest to use the same paper for both parts but I
> could change papers at the different signatures so
> as long as they're mostly the same (ie. not textured
> matte B&W vs semigloss colour).
> 
> The other thing is that places like Red River won't
> ship anything outside the US, so any company that
> has that attitude can't be used :-( This includes
> Inkjetart, inksupply and I'm asking mediastreet and 
> awaiting feedback. I do know places here in Australia
> that sell epson (doh), hahnemuhle, somerset 225g and
> just found a bockingford DS (no other information on
> weight etc).
> 
> Anyone who has done this sort of thing (ie. books)
> who has thoughts on paper weight as well as a
> particular brand/manufacturer, or anything else
> relevant - please speak up :-)
> 
> Thanks
> Robert
> PS. for the doubters: yes, I know it will be expensive 
> (and, except for the exact paper price, I *do* know 
> almost how much). No, I'm not going to use mypublisher 
> or ofoto or any other place.
> PPS. I went back a while in the archives searching but
> couldn't find anything relevant.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Paper for coffee table book

2005-01-11 by Robert McArthur

> There is a large Epson Center in Singapore, and there should be a 
> decent source for paper in that area, you could try contacting them 
> for local distributers. There is a double sided matte and also a 
> double sided semi-gloss. I don't know if this company ships out of US 
> but try them www.atlex.com.

Thanks for that. atlex.com says "it's not cost effective to export
orders of less than $1000" - yikes!! 

mediastreet got back to me and say that they will ship internationally, 
so if I can find it there I'll be OK. Choices there seem to be
-  Aspen DS matte 44lb 8mil (lots of OBAs though) ($1.03/13x19)
-  Photo-Realistic Dual-Sided Semi-Gloss (6.5 mil.) ($0.86/13x19)
     says this needs spraying so must be pretty bad for fading
-  Renaissance Duo 195 gsm ($4.65/13x19)
-  Generations Photo Matte 230 gsm, 10.5 mil

The only Epson DS matte I've found on the web only comes 
in A4/8.5x11 size, not 13x19/A3.

Sigh - it shouldn't be this hard...

Thanks
Robert

Re: [Digital BW] Paper for coffee table book

2005-01-11 by Tony Kelly

Robert,

Regarding paper for your coffee table book.. Inksupply (MIS) do ship outside
the US. Bockingford double sided is 190 gsm and is available here in
Australia in A3+. My own experience of Bockingford is that it does not
deliver a good enough dmax for photographic images.

Somerset is not available in a double sided version as far as I know.

You could consider some of the Hahnemulle double sided papers or Hawk
Mountain products.

We have printed for a number of books and I'd suggest that you consider the
type of binding you will be using as traditional bookbinding requires that
the paper grain runs vertically in relation to the binding.


Tony Kelly
________________________
Digital Lucida


http://www.digital-lucida.com.au

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Paper for coffee table book

2005-01-11 by Jim Doyle

Hey Rob

I carry:
The Hahnemuhle Photo rag 196 & 316
The Lumijet 2x Matte 185gsm 9 mil

I�ll Ship it to ya as long as Your paying the bill..

Let me know If I can Help ya Email me Off List!!

Cheers Mate

Jim Doyle

J. Doyle Enterprises LLC.
114 Old Orchard Rd.
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
856-424-8660
http://www.shadesofpaper.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert McArthur [mailto:mcarthur@...]
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 7:31 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Paper for coffee table book

> There is a large Epson Center in Singapore, and there should be a
> decent source for paper in that area, you could try contacting them
> for local distributers. There is a double sided matte and also a
> double sided semi-gloss. I don't know if this company ships out of US
> but try them www.atlex.com.

Thanks for that. atlex.com says "it's not cost effective to export
orders of less than $1000" - yikes!!

mediastreet got back to me and say that they will ship internationally,
so if I can find it there I'll be OK. Choices there seem to be
-  Aspen DS matte 44lb 8mil (lots of OBAs though) ($1.03/13x19)
-  Photo-Realistic Dual-Sided Semi-Gloss (6.5 mil.) ($0.86/13x19)
     says this needs spraying so must be pretty bad for fading
-  Renaissance Duo 195 gsm ($4.65/13x19)
-  Generations Photo Matte 230 gsm, 10.5 mil

The only Epson DS matte I've found on the web only comes
in A4/8.5x11 size, not 13x19/A3.

Sigh - it shouldn't be this hard...

Thanks
Robert



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RE: [Digital BW] Paper for coffee table book

2005-01-11 by Robert McArthur

Tony,

> Regarding paper for your coffee table book.. Inksupply (MIS) 
> do ship outside the US. Bockingford double sided is 190 gsm 
> and is available here in Australia in A3+. My own experience 
> of Bockingford is that it does not deliver a good enough dmax 
> for photographic images.
> 
> Somerset is not available in a double sided version as far as I know.

Thanks for those comments. I've also been looking at the brand
new (at least here in Australia) Ilford Gallerie Smooth
Heavyweight (200gsm) DS matte. So far only A4 (it may come
in larger but I haven't tried to find it). I've enjoyed using
the other ilford smooth so thought to give this a go. Similar 
problems - low dmax (to my eyes although I haven't personally
profiled it) and not really heavy enough. 

> You could consider some of the Hahnemulle double sided papers 
> or Hawk Mountain products.

I'm finally going to give Hahnemuhle a try. I've been put off thus 
far by repeated reports of flaking and whether it could stand regular 
page turning in book form: Tony/Jim/anyone? Oh, and price ;-)

Hawk Mountain's Condor Britewhite (the only DS I could find)
looks interesting - is that the one you were thinking of?

> We have printed for a number of books and I'd suggest that 
> you consider the type of binding you will be using as 
> traditional bookbinding requires that the paper grain runs 
> vertically in relation to the binding.

Hmm, nothing about that from the binders I've talked to. 
Can you elaborate? 

I was going to have it section stitched (number of 
section/signatures dependent on the paper weight), signatures 
glued then hard covered. Any suggestions would be very
gratefully received (it's been hard to find anyone who has
done anything like this before - I'm assuming there's good
reasons why :-)

Thanks muchly,
Robert

RE: [Digital BW] Paper for coffee table book

2005-01-11 by Jim Doyle

Robert

If you�re Going to try Hahnemuhle There are some distributors In OZ..

Just make sure you wipe or blow the paper off.. That will help with the
flaking..

Good Luck and Let us know how you make out!

Jim Doyle

J. Doyle Enterprises LLC.
114 Old Orchard Rd.
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
856-424-8660
http://www.shadesofpaper.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert McArthur [mailto:mcarthur@...]
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:12 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Paper for coffee table book

Tony,

> Regarding paper for your coffee table book.. Inksupply (MIS)
> do ship outside the US. Bockingford double sided is 190 gsm
> and is available here in Australia in A3+. My own experience
> of Bockingford is that it does not deliver a good enough dmax
> for photographic images.
>
> Somerset is not available in a double sided version as far as I know.

Thanks for those comments. I've also been looking at the brand
new (at least here in Australia) Ilford Gallerie Smooth
Heavyweight (200gsm) DS matte. So far only A4 (it may come
in larger but I haven't tried to find it). I've enjoyed using
the other ilford smooth so thought to give this a go. Similar
problems - low dmax (to my eyes although I haven't personally
profiled it) and not really heavy enough.

> You could consider some of the Hahnemulle double sided papers
> or Hawk Mountain products.

I'm finally going to give Hahnemuhle a try. I've been put off thus
far by repeated reports of flaking and whether it could stand regular
page turning in book form: Tony/Jim/anyone? Oh, and price ;-)

Hawk Mountain's Condor Britewhite (the only DS I could find)
looks interesting - is that the one you were thinking of?

> We have printed for a number of books and I'd suggest that
> you consider the type of binding you will be using as
> traditional bookbinding requires that the paper grain runs
> vertically in relation to the binding.

Hmm, nothing about that from the binders I've talked to.
Can you elaborate?

I was going to have it section stitched (number of
section/signatures dependent on the paper weight), signatures
glued then hard covered. Any suggestions would be very
gratefully received (it's been hard to find anyone who has
done anything like this before - I'm assuming there's good
reasons why :-)

Thanks muchly,
Robert



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND
�MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND
�MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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Re: [Digital BW] Paper for coffee table book

2005-01-11 by BKPhoto@aol.com

Robert-

I can enthusiastically recommend:

Digital Book Design and Publishing, by Douglas Holleley.

Coming Into Focus, edited by John Barnier, (particularly “Chapter 21 Paper”, 
written by W. Russell Young III)



Bill Kennedy
Associate Professor of Photocommunications
St. Edward's University
512/448-8680


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Paper for coffee table book

2005-01-11 by Tony Kelly

Robert,

I ought to point out that my comments with regard to Bockingford were purely
based on our experience with the pigment inks we use, it may (and I am
advised does) produce much better results with dye based inks.

I assumed that you are looking at pigment-based prints for this book.

on 11/1/05 1:11 PM, Robert McArthur at wrote:

> I'm finally going to give Hahnemuhle a try. I've been put off thus
> far by repeated reports of flaking and whether it could stand regular
> page turning in book form: Tony/Jim/anyone? Oh, and price ;-)

I haven't used Hahnemulle a lot but I haven't seen the flaking issue others
report so often, perhaps those who have can answer this. I suspect that the
196 weight would however be a preferable weight for a book.
 
> Hawk Mountain's Condor Britewhite (the only DS I could find)
> looks interesting - is that the one you were thinking of?

yes Condor BW (300gsm) is the one I was thinking of.


> Hmm, nothing about that from the binders I've talked to.
> Can you elaborate?

We worked with some very professional book-binders and they always insist on
the paper grain running in the same direction as the binding. If it runs
contrary it can affect how the book lays when open (the book can resist
laying open properly) and can also cause cockling of the pages.

I'm talking traditional bookbinding here and the direction of paper grain is
of great importance to those we provide prints for. Perhaps the binding your
binder is looking at is different, I'd be surprised though if both paper
weight and grain were a non-issue.

Sometimes we have to cut page sizes down from oversize sheets to get the
grain going the way we need it. It can be a pain but I believe it does make
a real difference to the end result.

My preference would be a real matte paper, it's less likely to show
fingerprints and although handling may cause some issues I think these will
be the same on any paper handling is rough enough.


Tony Kelly
________________________
Digital Lucida


http://www.digital-lucida.com.au

RE: [Digital BW] Paper for coffee table book

2005-01-11 by José Miguel Ferreira

Robert,

I have experienced flaking with Hahnemühle William Turner but not with Photo
Rag.
I wipe William Turner paper before loading it into the printer with a white
t-shirt. It helps, but it's not perfect... It's important not to touch the
image on the paper (even when fully dry) otherwise it will leave unpleasant
tiny white spots. This paper is really beautiful both to the eyes and to the
fingers, but it's sooooo delicate.....
As much as I love this paper, I don't think it would be appropriate for a
book - too much handling. Photo Rag would be a better choice, IMHO.

José
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Doyle [mailto:jdoyle1713@...] 
Sent: mardi, 11. janvier 2005 03:19
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Paper for coffee table book


Robert

If you’re Going to try Hahnemuhle There are some distributors In OZ..

Just make sure you wipe or blow the paper off.. That will help with the
flaking..

Good Luck and Let us know how you make out!

Jim Doyle

J. Doyle Enterprises LLC.
114 Old Orchard Rd.
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
856-424-8660
http://www.shadesofpaper.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert McArthur [mailto:mcarthur@...]
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:12 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Paper for coffee table book

Tony,

> Regarding paper for your coffee table book.. Inksupply (MIS)
> do ship outside the US. Bockingford double sided is 190 gsm
> and is available here in Australia in A3+. My own experience
> of Bockingford is that it does not deliver a good enough dmax
> for photographic images.
>
> Somerset is not available in a double sided version as far as I know.

Thanks for those comments. I've also been looking at the brand
new (at least here in Australia) Ilford Gallerie Smooth
Heavyweight (200gsm) DS matte. So far only A4 (it may come
in larger but I haven't tried to find it). I've enjoyed using
the other ilford smooth so thought to give this a go. Similar
problems - low dmax (to my eyes although I haven't personally
profiled it) and not really heavy enough.

> You could consider some of the Hahnemulle double sided papers
> or Hawk Mountain products.

I'm finally going to give Hahnemuhle a try. I've been put off thus
far by repeated reports of flaking and whether it could stand regular
page turning in book form: Tony/Jim/anyone? Oh, and price ;-)

Hawk Mountain's Condor Britewhite (the only DS I could find)
looks interesting - is that the one you were thinking of?

> We have printed for a number of books and I'd suggest that
> you consider the type of binding you will be using as
> traditional bookbinding requires that the paper grain runs
> vertically in relation to the binding.

Hmm, nothing about that from the binders I've talked to.
Can you elaborate?

I was going to have it section stitched (number of
section/signatures dependent on the paper weight), signatures
glued then hard covered. Any suggestions would be very
gratefully received (it's been hard to find anyone who has
done anything like this before - I'm assuming there's good
reasons why :-)

Thanks muchly,
Robert



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
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RE: [Digital BW] Paper for coffee table book

2005-01-11 by Robert McArthur

> I can enthusiastically recommend:
> 
> Digital Book Design and Publishing, by Douglas Holleley.
> 
> Coming Into Focus, edited by John Barnier, (particularly 
> “Chapter 21 Paper”, written by W. Russell Young III)

Bill - thanks very much for the references. I'll be ordering the
first one immediately! I'll try and find the second one in
other ways since it's been out for 4 years.

Jim - thanks for your offer re:Hahnemuhle and Lumijet. I'll try
the 196gsm photorag duo which I can get locally and see how it
goes.

Tony - thanks also. Yes, I'll be using pigment inks. Epson UC
since I'll be doing both B&W and colour. I'll try the Hahnemuhle
and if that doesn't sing, maybe the Condor. I'll chat offline
re: paper grain, thanks.

José - thanks for the feedback re: William Turner. Photo Rag is
sounding more and more possible!

I'll let the list know how it all goes...

Regards
Robert McArthur

RE: [Digital BW] Paper for coffee table book

2005-01-11 by Andy Biggs

I would look into Moab Entrada 190. It is double sided, and costs *much*
less than Photo Rag of equivalent weights.
 
$.02
 
Andy

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