Digital BW, The Print

I just order C86 and it have arrived. Should I buy a CIS or Refill 
cart. with EZ-N inkset?

Can someone with experience on both systems give me advice?

TIA

Hi John,

First off, I don't have both systems.

I do re-fill the new clear carts and you will save a lot of money 
doing so. I buy pints. If these pints go fast enough, I'm going for 
the gallons next time.

MIS recommends  to  not use a CIS unless you print everyday. I don't 
know if you saw that on their website or not.

I print a lot, but not everyday, so I'm avoiding it.

I guess it will come down to how much priting you do.

I'm sure someone here that uses a CIS will tell you the pros and cons.


Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John" 
<firewoodtech@y...> wrote:

> 
> I just order C86 and it have arrived. Should I buy a CIS or Refill 
> cart. with EZ-N inkset?
> 
> Can someone with experience on both systems give me advice?
> 
> TIA

>I just order C86 ...
> Should I buy a CIS or Refill cart. with EZ-N inkset?

I'd go with the easy-refill carts.

For me the flexibility to try different combinations of carts for different
tones is important.  I might also want to switch between glossy and matte
blacks.  With a CFS, you're locked in.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Scott and Paul, thanks for the quick response.

The reason I asked is.... those china-made CIS (which most U.S. co. 
are getting their parts from) are almost the same price as the EZ 
Refill cart. I can easily order them over the net.

I agreed with Paul that EZ Fill is very flexible IF you are going to 
switch between blacks but I prefer mostly glossy. 

Scott, even if I am not printing everyday, with EZ Refill, the unused 
inks are sitting in their own plastic container if you know what I 
mean.... :-)

Thanks again
John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >I just order C86 ...
> > Should I buy a CIS or Refill cart. with EZ-N inkset?
> 
> I'd go with the easy-refill carts.
> 
> For me the flexibility to try different combinations of carts for 
different
> tones is important.  I might also want to switch between glossy and 
matte

> blacks.  With a CFS, you're locked in.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>Hi John,
>
>First off, I don't have both systems.
>
>I do re-fill the new clear carts and you will save a lot of money
>doing so. I buy pints. If these pints go fast enough, I'm going for
>the gallons next time.
>
>MIS recommends to not use a CIS unless you print everyday. I don't
>know if you saw that on their website or not.
>
>I print a lot, but not everyday, so I'm avoiding it.
>
>I guess it will come down to how much priting you do.
>
>I'm sure someone here that uses a CIS will tell you the pros and 
>cons.

>
> I'm sure someone here that uses a CIS will tell you the pros and cons.
>

I use the CIS.

Pros ... you can print to your hearts desire without blinking ... as long
as you have paper. I love that part.

Pro: You've got a lot of ink and don't have to worry about refilling,
resetting chips or what-not.

Cons ... the clips with adhesive that you use to hold the tubing in place
is not adhesive enough. Mine come loose once or twice a day. If you make a
habit of pressing that back into place every now and then (I'm up to a
couple of times a day) all is well. But you can't use the "autoprint"
program to print a page a day if you're gone for a few days. If the clips
come loose (and mine do all the time) then they will block the printing
mechanism and the printer goes into error recovery mode.

Another con: Make sure you choose the ink (warm or neutral) that you want
from the start. You won't be able to play around with degrees of warm by
having neutral inks in most positions and a warm ink in strategic ones.

Another con: You're stuck with your black (Eboni or Photo Black). So even
if the system is made to work with matte and glossy, you'll be limited to
the one you primed your CIS with. Not a great problem for me, I like
matte and Eboni works reasonably well with Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl
(but not smooth Gloss).

I'm considering cutting up a slit in the side of the C86 at just about the
position of the left-hand clip and then running the tubes on the outside
of the printer rather than along the inside of it. That would solve the
problem with clips that loosen all the time.

Daniel Ridings

Hi,
I have a question about the new carts from MIS.
I bought the new clear carts a month ago and this weekend had to re-fill them.
They worked fine but after a few photos I noticed some missing jets on two of the carts. When I pulled
them out they had bubbles around the bottom of the cart stopping the flow of ink. I had to use the bottom
fill adaptor to extract some ink to get rid of the air.
Is this normal, do you have to suck some ink after re-fill?

Thanks,
Jake

Fine Art Photography
www.jakehellbachphoto.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Scott, even if I am not printing everyday, with EZ Refill, the unused
inks are sitting in their own plastic container if you know what I
mean.... :-)"

John,

That's not a problem, if the carts sit for a reasonable amount of 
time.

However, for whatever reason, the CIS is prone to sucking in air into 
the system is it's not used daily, and the ink drys out around the 
head.

Link to InkSupplies'website that talks about this situation (scroll 
down the page):

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/utez.html

I'll post this from their website:

"If you are a frequent printer or doing some production work, then we 
recommend you purchase a MIS Continuous Flow System for your C82, C84 
or C86 printer. This will save you a tremendous amount of money. The 
cost to operate a CFS is at least 10 times less than using 
cartridges. If you only print occasionally, then do not get a CFS. If 
left idle for 3 or 4 days at a time, CFS units can start to develop 
problems. Our AUTOPRINT program (see CFS Page- halfway down) can be 
used to prevent problems from occuring, provided the printer and its 
computer remain powered. "

Their is a program that you can install on your computer to 
automatically run a purge print each day, to try to prevent problems 
from non-use.

But I think that would be im-practicle unless you printer, say, 5 
days a week. Or, maybe you left town for a day or two or whatever.

I just hate to see someone have a bad experiance from the start and 
get turned off to the whole b&w digital printing process.

And, I'll close with this: Not including the price of the carts, the 
re-filled carts cost $1.37/each to re-fill if you buy pints. Buying 
gallons, the cost drops to $0.98 each to fill.

With that kind of savings, I'm not going to mess with the CFS.

Let us know how it works out for you.



Scott



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John" 
<firewoodtech@y...> wrote:
> 
> Scott and Paul, thanks for the quick response.
> 
> The reason I asked is.... those china-made CIS (which most U.S. co. 
> are getting their parts from) are almost the same price as the EZ 
> Refill cart. I can easily order them over the net.
> 
> I agreed with Paul that EZ Fill is very flexible IF you are going 
to 
> switch between blacks but I prefer mostly glossy. 
> 
> Scott, even if I am not printing everyday, with EZ Refill, the 
unused 
> inks are sitting in their own plastic container if you know what I 
> mean.... :-)
> 
> Thanks again
> John
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > >I just order C86 ...
> > > Should I buy a CIS or Refill cart. with EZ-N inkset?
> > 
> > I'd go with the easy-refill carts.
> > 
> > For me the flexibility to try different combinations of carts for 
> different
> > tones is important.  I might also want to switch between glossy 
and 

> matte
> > blacks.  With a CFS, you're locked in.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> >
> >Hi John,
> >
> >First off, I don't have both systems.
> >
> >I do re-fill the new clear carts and you will save a lot of money
> >doing so. I buy pints. If these pints go fast enough, I'm going for
> >the gallons next time.
> >
> >MIS recommends to not use a CIS unless you print everyday. I don't
> >know if you saw that on their website or not.
> >
> >I print a lot, but not everyday, so I'm avoiding it.
> >
> >I guess it will come down to how much priting you do.
> >
> >I'm sure someone here that uses a CIS will tell you the pros and 
> >cons.

I would say that is nornal.

I re-filled 3 Saturday night.

I noticed my PK cart had bubbles near the bottom of the sponge side.

I removed about 2 or 3 ml of ink with the adapter. The bubbles were 
still there, but the carts printed fine.

I'm like Paul, if I use the syring and a bottom adapter and remove a 
ml or 2, I get a good nozzle check on the first try.

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jake Hellbach" 
<jake@j...> wrote:
> Hi,
> I have a question about the new carts from MIS.
> I bought the new clear carts a month ago and this weekend had to re-
fill them.
> They worked fine but after a few photos I noticed some missing jets 
on two of the carts. When I pulled
> them out they had bubbles around the bottom of the cart stopping 
the flow of ink. I had to use the bottom

> fill adaptor to extract some ink to get rid of the air.
> Is this normal, do you have to suck some ink after re-fill?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jake
> 
> Fine Art Photography
> www.jakehellbachphoto.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jake,

I routinely "prime" the carts by sucking some ink out the bottom with a
bottom fill adapter.  (I shortened a standard one's snout to 7 mm to get a
better seal.)  That seems to pull this air bubble out.  Air doesn't seem to
be a problem when re-filling.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jake Hellbach [mailto:jake@...] 
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 5:49 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Clear cart question


Hi,
I have a question about the new carts from MIS.
I bought the new clear carts a month ago and this weekend had to re-fill
them.
They worked fine but after a few photos I noticed some missing jets on two
of the carts. When I pulled
them out they had bubbles around the bottom of the cart stopping the flow of
ink. I had to use the bottom
fill adaptor to extract some ink to get rid of the air.
Is this normal, do you have to suck some ink after re-fill?

Thanks,
Jake

Fine Art Photography
www.jakehellbachphoto.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Folks,

I just found this forum. It looks like a great place.  I'm a traditional 
wet darkroom user, and I don't plan on giving that up anytime soon. In 
fact I'm just in the process of setting up an 8x10 De-Vere horizontal 
enlarger. In any case, over the years I've acquired a fair number of 
negatives with flaws, such as wayward hair or other distracting 
elements; and also a number of  them that would be very hard to dodge 
and burn properly using traditional methods. I hope to eventually be 
able to print these digitally. While I might eventually try Dan 
Burkholder's image setter negative technique, I'd prefer to be able to 
do as much of the work in house as possible.  As such, I'm considering 
getting an inexpensive inkjet printer, perhaps the Epson c86, which I'd 
use with Mis EZ inks. I'd like these prints to looks as much like my  
prints from medium and large format negatives onto Ilford's glossy 
silver gelatin VC fiber based paper, which I air dry. This gives a soft 
sheen. So I have a couple of questions. Would the Epson C86 and Mis EZ 
inks allow me to make prints that are at least close to my more 
traditional methods?  What paper would best match the qualities of 
Ilford's glossy silver gelatin fiber paper? I don't like glossy resin 
coated silver gelatin prints, as they are too shiny and plasticy 
looking, and I don't like matte paper for my work. Would someone who 
used the c86 with Mis EZ inks be willing to send me a small sample print?

Regards,
Peter De Smidt

PS I do have some Photoshop CS experience, although I'm not an expert by 
any means. At the moment I'm working through Karin Eismann's book on 
digital retouching.

Peter,

>...  I'm a traditional wet darkroom user, ...

Many of us still have our darkrooms.

>... considering getting an inexpensive inkjet printer, 
>perhaps the Epson c86, ... with Mis EZ inks.

Yep, that's what I recommend as a starting place.

> I'd like these prints to looks as much like my  
>prints from medium and large format negatives onto Ilford's glossy 
>silver gelatin VC fiber based paper, which I air dry. This gives a soft 
>sheen.

Under glass this is relatively easy, since the gloss of the glass is what
people see.  If there is no glass, the surfaces of the papers differ.  I
like the sprayed Epson Premium Semimatte (only in rolls) or Semigloss (in
sheets).  This line of papers (and perhaps the Costco glossy paper) are
about the only glossy papers that may be archival.  Most glossy papers have
acidic paper interiors.  The Epson Premium line and Costco have buffered
interiors.  Wilhelm gives the Epson Premium papers an estimated dark storage
life of >200 years, which is the best he gives any paper, I believe.

>... Would the Epson C86 and Mis EZ inks allow me to make prints 
>that are at least close to my more traditional methods?

Yes.

> What paper would best match the qualities of 
>Ilford's glossy silver gelatin fiber paper? 
>I don't like glossy resin coated silver gelatin prints, 
>as they are too shiny and plasticy looking, 

That is why I like the Semimatte and Semigloss.  These papers need a
post-printing spray to get rid of bronzing.  This spray also protects the
prints, however.

> I don't like matte paper for my work.

I think the matte paper look is a problem many have had with inkjet
printing.  However, if they are going to be under glass, they can look very
good.  There is probably noting that is more archival and easier to frame
either.  Tape hanging a matte print is much easier than dry mounting.

For more information on the C86 and other options, see my ink information
page at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm .

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I had the same trouble with the clips coming off.  Solved it with Scotch 
brand Exterior Mounting Tape, product 4011.  This is an extra strong 
double stick foam tape.  It took a bit of effort to get all the old tape 
off the clips, but I then cut appropriately sized squares of the 
exterior tape and haven't had a clip come loose since.

Cheers,
Kip

Daniel Ridings wrote, in part:

> <snip>
>
>Cons ... the clips with adhesive that you use to hold the tubing in place
>is not adhesive enough. Mine come loose once or twice a day. If you make a
>habit of pressing that back into place every now and then (I'm up to a
>couple of times a day) all is well. But you can't use the "autoprint"
>program to print a page a day if you're gone for a few days. If the clips
>come loose (and mine do all the time) then they will block the printing
>mechanism and the printer goes into error recovery mode.
>  
>

Paul,

Thanks for your help. You're willingness to spend the time sharing your 
expertise is truly laudable.  I'll give the C86 Mis EX inks a try on the 
semi-matte and semi-gloss papers. I do have a couple of  further questions.

First, you mention spraying the prints with a coating.  It's my 
understanding that these types of treatments have been problematic, in 
that they themselves have  caused print deterioration, despite what the 
manufacturer's have claimed. The anecdotal info that I saw concerned 
silver gelatin prints, and so this may not be a problem here. In his 
book _Post Exposure_, Ctein says that one brand caused problems while 
another did not, at least not yet. Unfortunately, he didn't specify the 
brands. While it's way too early to tell, as inkjet prints haven't been 
around that long, is the consensus that these print sprays aren't 
harmful? Have accelerated aging tests been done with these sprays? 

Second, can inkjet prints be dry mounted? I prefer to mount all of my 
display photographs with Seal's Colormount dry-mount tissue on museum 
board. The prints and backing boards are put in a press heated to 200F 
for 3 minutes. Would this be a problem for the Mis EZ inks?

Regards,
Peter De Smidt

Peter,

>... you mention spraying the prints with a coating.  It's my 
>understanding that these types of treatments have been problematic, in 
>that they themselves have  caused print deterioration, despite what the 
>manufacturer's have claimed.

Wilhelm has tested the PremierArt spray and found that it increased the
lightfastness of the prints it was applied to.  My fade tests show the same
thing.  

>... can inkjet prints be dry mounted? 

Yes.  I use a Seal archival tissue at 170 F.  One minute in the press does
the job.  I would hold the heat down as much as possible.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com