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mac vs PC

mac vs PC

2005-01-22 by jnhugo

Every mac is made by apple with in house quality control while a 
windows machine could be built by any number of hundreds of 
makers.
A properly configured windows machine should work fine but it is 
not that easy to find one.
We have two work stations at the lab - a Mac, I insisted, and a 
windows machine-a pretty expensive Dell tower- the Dell is a  
machine that has never worked right from the out set-windows 
always wants to do things that you haven't asked for while the 
Mac just hums right along. Same with my wife's Gateway- it is a 
really good looking well designed machine but doesn't work 
right-ie opens strange files unprompted-launches install 
commands for programs already present-turns on by itself-
connects to the internet unprompted..
If you are a power user and can absolutely get the confiquration 
you need windows works fine- if not a Mac is just "easier on the 
brain"
Windows are also very vulnerable to infections-Macs much less 
so..

mac vs PC

2005-01-22 by jnhugo

Every mac is made by apple with in house quality control while a 
windows machine could be built by any number of hundreds of 
makers.
A properly configured windows machine should work fine but it is 
not that easy to find one.
We have two work stations at the lab - a Mac, I insisted, and a 
windows machine-a pretty expensive Dell tower- the Dell is a  
machine that has never worked right from the out set-windows 
always wants to do things that you haven't asked for while the 
Mac just hums right along. Same with my wife's Gateway- it is a 
really good looking well designed machine but doesn't work 
right-ie opens strange files unprompted-launches install 
commands for programs already present-turns on by itself-
connects to the internet unprompted..
If you are a power user and can absolutely get the confiquration 
you need windows works fine- if not a Mac is just "easier on the 
brain"
Windows are also very vulnerable to infections-Macs much less 
so..

Re: mac vs PC

2005-01-22 by - andu -

I was hoping not to hear this debate anymore but since you asked,
here's my take.
As you notice most people use windows platform either because they
have to (work, issues with file sharing etc.), or they just followed
the crowd (nobody's perfect) and considered that rebooting your
computer every once in a while is just part of the regular computer
experience.
Contrary to common belief, Apple's "in house quality control" has more
to do with the looks then performance since probably all machines are
assembled in China or other industrial countries.
The reason why you want a Mac is the operating system which is based
in large proportion on FreeBSD, one of the most stable and secure
operating systems, ever, if an application has trouble it won't take
down with it the whole system as it happens more often then not with
windows. 
The idea that if you configure a windows box properly or use only
choice hardware components, is wrong. One should do those to get
maximum performance from such a system not to just prevent it from
crashing.
Buy a mac and you won't regret it, both for general work and digital
black and white.

Andu

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jnhugo"
<jacknadelle@h...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Every mac is made by apple with in house quality control while a 
> windows machine could be built by any number of hundreds of 
> makers.
> A properly configured windows machine should work fine but it is 
> not that easy to find one.
> We have two work stations at the lab - a Mac, I insisted, and a 
> windows machine-a pretty expensive Dell tower- the Dell is a  
> machine that has never worked right from the out set-windows 
> always wants to do things that you haven't asked for while the 
> Mac just hums right along. Same with my wife's Gateway- it is a 
> really good looking well designed machine but doesn't work 
> right-ie opens strange files unprompted-launches install 
> commands for programs already present-turns on by itself-
> connects to the internet unprompted..
> If you are a power user and can absolutely get the confiquration 
> you need windows works fine- if not a Mac is just "easier on the 
> brain"
> Windows are also very vulnerable to infections-Macs much less 
> so..

Re: [Digital BW] mac vs PC

2005-01-22 by Anthony G. Atkielski

jnhugo writes:

> Every mac is made by apple with in house quality control while a
> windows machine could be built by any number of hundreds of 
> makers.

Including oneself.  One of the nice things about PCs is that you can
build your own from scratch according to whatever specifications you
prefer.  As far as I know, there's no way to build your own Mac.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: mac vs PC

2005-01-22 by Anthony G. Atkielski

- andu - writes:

> As you notice most people use windows platform either because they
> have to (work, issues with file sharing etc.), or they just followed
> the crowd (nobody's perfect) and considered that rebooting your
> computer every once in a while is just part of the regular computer
> experience.

You're partially right.  Most people use Windows because most other
people use Windows ... it's simply the default choice for anyone who
doesn't really care which operating system he is using.

Those who pick Windows explicitly usually do so because PCs are less
expensive than Macs, or because the variety of applications available
for Windows is dramatically larger than that available for Macs.

Some people choose PC platforms because it prevents them from being 100%
dependent on any one company.  Microsoft produces Windows, but there are
several versions of Windows, and there are other, non-Microsoft
operating systems that will also run on a PC (Linux and UNIX are popular
choices, and there are several other options).  Hardware can be bought
from anyone, and even for the most important part of the PC--the
microprocessor--there are two leading suppliers (Intel and AMD).

With a Mac, all the hardware and OS software comes from Apple. You
either do it Apple's way, at Apple's price, or not at all. If you want
complete consistency, this is the way to get it, but if you want
flexibility or freedom or low cost, it's very constraining.

The Mac does have the advantage of being very easy to use and very
reliable in most cases (because all the key variables are controlled by
Apple).  In years past it was also the preferred platform for the
graphic arts--printing and publishing, image manipulation, music,
etc.--although that advantage is largely historical now in the more
popular domains.  Some people buy Macs because they look so pretty on a
desk (yes, really!).  And the Mac has a large following of religiously
devoted users who would buy Apple and Mac no matter what, as their only
criterion of choice is that the machine be a Mac (PCs and Windows do not
benefit from this type of religious following).

> The reason why you want a Mac is the operating system which is based
> in large proportion on FreeBSD, one of the most stable and secure
> operating systems, ever, if an application has trouble it won't take
> down with it the whole system as it happens more often then not with
> windows.

Actually, Windows XP and other NT-based operating systems are no less
stable than Mac OS X.  Instability in a desktop operating system today
is related more to other factors than to the OS design itself; both the
UNIX foundation of OS X and the NT foundation of newer versions of
Windows are intrinsically rock-stable and can run for years without a
boot.

Older desktop operating systems are very unstable by comparison and had
serious design flaws.  The non-NT versions of Windows (Windows 9x,
16-bit Windows, etc.) are in this category, as is the older Mac OS.

> The idea that if you configure a windows box properly or use only
> choice hardware components, is wrong. One should do those to get
> maximum performance from such a system not to just prevent it from
> crashing.

You don't need choice hardware components or special configuration to
make a Windows machine stable.  As long as you are using XP, 2000, or
NT, it will be stable on any decent hardware platform.

> Buy a mac and you won't regret it, both for general work and digital
> black and white.

An unjustifiable generalization.  You may or may not regret it.  In
cases where people do regret the purchase of a Mac, it is usually
because they become locked into an expensive platform, or because they
cannot use a large number of applications that exist only for Windows.
In cases where they are happy to have bought a Mac, it is usually
because Macs tend to be easier to use and more coherent than PCs.

In general, the least geeky users will choose Macs, and the most geeky
users will choose a PC running Linux.  The mainstream is somewhere in
between, running PCs under Windows.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: mac vs PC

2005-01-22 by Bob Frost

Andu,

Not with Windows XP; it is designed to prevent faulty programs taking it out 
when they crash, unlike much older versions such as Win98. Let's get the 
facts right.

Bob Frost.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "- andu -" <px3n120x@...>



The reason why you want a Mac is the operating system which is based
in large proportion on FreeBSD, one of the most stable and secure
operating systems, ever, if an application has trouble it won't take
down with it the whole system as it happens more often then not with
windows.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: mac vs PC

2005-01-22 by José Miguel Ferreira

Hi.

For 7 years I worked as a Macintosh specialist. I sold, installed,
configured and trouble-shooted Macs and Mac networks. Most of my customers
were architects, designers, photographers, the usual crowd...
I stopped my business just before Mac OS X came out, so I can't speak for
that...

I now use one Windows XP machine for everything. It never crashes,
maintenance is minimal. At equal computing performances, it costs *way* less
than a Mac.

José
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Frost [mailto:bob@...e]
> Sent: samedi, 22. janvier 2005 11:39
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: mac vs PC
> 
> 
> Andu,
> 
> Not with Windows XP; it is designed to prevent faulty programs taking it
> out
> when they crash, unlike much older versions such as Win98. Let's get the
> facts right.
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "- andu -" <px3n120x@...>
> 
> 
> 
> The reason why you want a Mac is the operating system which is based
> in large proportion on FreeBSD, one of the most stable and secure
> operating systems, ever, if an application has trouble it won't take
> down with it the whole system as it happens more often then not with
> windows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: mac vs PC

2005-01-22 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Jos\ufffd Miguel Ferreira writes:

> For 7 years I worked as a Macintosh specialist. I sold, installed,
> configured and trouble-shooted Macs and Mac networks. Most of my customers
> were architects, designers, photographers, the usual crowd...
> I stopped my business just before Mac OS X came out, so I can't speak for
> that...

Mac OS X is a completely different OS, though ... a dramatic change that
resembles the preceding OS only superficially.  It's very much like the
change between the older versions of Windows and Windows NT/XP/200x.

Both OS X and the NT-based Windows operating systems belong to a new
generation of operating systems that are inherently very stable.  Any of
them should be able to run continuously for years without a boot or
crash (some of mine have).

The old Mac OS was garbage ... it belonged to the same generation as
16-bit Windows 3.1, and had the same defects.  It's amazing how long Mac
users put up with it.  OS X is probably not ideal for a desktop (the
UNIX foundation of the OS is a timesharing server operating system, not
a desktop operating system), but it's a dramatic improvement over its
predecessor.

Similarly, XP/NT/200x are dramatic improvements over their predecessors,
but it's not clear exactly what they want to be.  NT was designed as a
server, like UNIX, but Microsoft has pushed the operating systems more
and more towards a desktop architecture, making them prettier and more
friendly but also less secure, stable, and flexible.  The move towards a
desktop GUI does this to any operating system; it has the same effect on
OS X, which is less stable than a pure UNIX system.  Even a UNIX system
running a GUI like X Server is less stable and secure than a straight
UNIX server configuration.

> I now use one Windows XP machine for everything. It never crashes,
> maintenance is minimal. At equal computing performances, it costs
> *way* less than a Mac.

I can't speak for costs, but all three of my machines (XP, NT, and
FreeBSD) will run indefinitely without a crash.  I don't believe I've
ever seen XP crash.  I've seen my NT system crash a few times when I
tried to install buggy drivers.  I've seen FreeBSD crash for the same
reason.  Hardware problems can crash any system, of course.

Re: Re: Re: mac vs PC

2005-01-22 by Christer Rosewelll

On Jan 22, 2005, at 1:56 AM, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>    From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: mac vs PC
>
> - andu - writes:
>
>> As you notice most people use windows platform either because they
>> have to (work, issues with file sharing etc.), or they just followed
>> the crowd (nobody's perfect) and considered that rebooting your
>> computer every once in a while is just part of the regular computer
>> experience.
>
> You're partially right.  Most people use Windows because most other
> people use Windows ... it's simply the default choice for anyone who
> doesn't really care which operating system he is using.


	Very true - or he/she went to a store and bought the particular 
machine the salesperson was pushing that week because he/she got the 
most "spiff" - kickback from that particular maker
>
> Those who pick Windows explicitly usually do so because PCs are less
> expensive than Macs, or because the variety of applications available
> for Windows is dramatically larger than that available for Macs.

	not true - there are now more than 17,000 programs available for OS X 
- there are dramatically fewer than this for each operating version for 
PC's - remember a program for Windows 98 won't run on XP and vice 
versa. There are however a few key program that do not exist on the Mac 
platform - such as MS's Access.
>
> Some people choose PC platforms because it prevents them from being 
> 100%
> dependent on any one company.  Microsoft produces Windows, but there 
> are
> several versions of Windows, and there are other, non-Microsoft
> operating systems that will also run on a PC (Linux and UNIX are 
> popular
> choices, and there are several other options).  Hardware can be bought
> from anyone, and even for the most important part of the PC--the
> microprocessor--there are two leading suppliers (Intel and AMD).

	Read below regarding processors - and if you want to run Linux - or 
Windows for that matter on a Mac - no problem - it will run them all- 
concurrently with OSX  - AND - OS 9 if you so want - I still use a 
program that died 5 years ago and only runs under system 9 - works 
flawlessly!
>
> With a Mac, all the hardware and OS software comes from Apple. You
> either do it Apple's way, at Apple's price, or not at all. If you want
> complete consistency, this is the way to get it, but if you want
> flexibility or freedom or low cost, it's very constraining.

	I've been using Macs since 1984 - my freedom consist of always being 
able to work - knowing that my machines always work - never crashes - 
do what I want them to do, never get viruses - don'[t get obsolete in a 
few years, I can add parts and 3rd part stuff to them and they still 
work - my major desktop is now a 4 year old G4 - upgraded (by myself) 
with a 3rd party processor, has 11 drives (usb and Firewire) hooked up 
to it as well as 2 SCSI scanners - 1 film, 1 flatbed - connected to 2 
3rd party SCSI cards and 1 Firewire burner and 2 printers. It works - 
always - and Photoshop CS never crashes as it seems to do on an umber 
of PC users in these forums - and I routinely work with 1 GB files.
>
> The Mac does have the advantage of being very easy to use and very
> reliable in most cases (because all the key variables are controlled by
> Apple).  In years past it was also the preferred platform for the
> graphic arts--printing and publishing, image manipulation, music,
> etc.--although that advantage is largely historical now in the more
> popular domains.  Some people buy Macs because they look so pretty on a
> desk (yes, really!).  And the Mac has a large following of religiously
> devoted users who would buy Apple and Mac no matter what, as their only
> criterion of choice is that the machine be a Mac (PCs and Windows do 
> not
> benefit from this type of religious following).

	It still is the platform of choice for those who insist on reliability 
and speed - even Microsoft uses MAcs for all their publishing 
needs..=*^)
>
>> The reason why you want a Mac is the operating system which is based
>> in large proportion on FreeBSD, one of the most stable and secure
>> operating systems, ever, if an application has trouble it won't take
>> down with it the whole system as it happens more often then not with
>> windows.
>
> Actually, Windows XP and other NT-based operating systems are no less
> stable than Mac OS X.  Instability in a desktop operating system today
> is related more to other factors than to the OS design itself; both the
> UNIX foundation of OS X and the NT foundation of newer versions of
> Windows are intrinsically rock-stable and can run for years without a
> boot.

	Not so if you read these lists..=*^)
>
> Older desktop operating systems are very unstable by comparison and had
> serious design flaws.  The non-NT versions of Windows (Windows 9x,
> 16-bit Windows, etc.) are in this category, as is the older Mac OS.

	Once I stopped using Microsoft programs about 6 years ago in OS 9 I 
never had any problems - system 9 was quite reliable if you understood 
it - and gave each program you used twice the minimum memory it 
wanted...
>
>> The idea that if you configure a windows box properly or use only
>> choice hardware components, is wrong. One should do those to get
>> maximum performance from such a system not to just prevent it from
>> crashing.
>
> You don't need choice hardware components or special configuration to
> make a Windows machine stable.  As long as you are using XP, 2000, or
> NT, it will be stable on any decent hardware platform.

	Again - not so from the posts on this very list.
>
>> Buy a mac and you won't regret it, both for general work and digital
>> black and white.
>
> An unjustifiable generalization.  You may or may not regret it.  In
> cases where people do regret the purchase of a Mac, it is usually
> because they become locked into an expensive platform, or because they
> cannot use a large number of applications that exist only for Windows.
> In cases where they are happy to have bought a Mac, it is usually
> because Macs tend to be easier to use and more coherent than PCs.

	Here we go again with the argument that Mac is an expensive platform - 
if you configure a well regarded PC makers machine the same as a Mac - 
the Mac is usually very similar in price - and even sometimes cheaper - 
to this you must also take into consideration that the Mac does not 
become obsolete as fast - is more productive - many, many studies has 
proven this.
>
> In general, the least geeky users will choose Macs, and the most geeky
> users will choose a PC running Linux.  The mainstream is somewhere in
> between, running PCs under Windows.

	I support the notion that the most geeky users will choose PC's - 
often because they want to build their own - but that the least geeky 
users buy Macs I think is not why they choose Macs - rather it is ease 
of use - aesthetic beauty of the machines - yes, really - and because 
they WORK!..=*^)

Best,

Christer


Christer, AKA Christer Rosewell
http://www.ChristerArt.com
3.5 million visitors to date..


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Re: Re: mac vs PC

2005-01-22 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Christer Rosewelll writes:

> Very true - or he/she went to a store and bought the particular
> machine the salesperson was pushing that week because he/she got the 
> most "spiff" - kickback from that particular maker

I don't know that it's a question of kickbacks.  Most stores sell
whatever people buy.  At my favorite warehouse computer store, Macs used
to have an entire section of the building to themselves.  Now everything
from Apple is crammed into one small booth.  The former Mac zone
contains big-screen video displays, TVs, and multimedia equipment
(including one or two Apple Cinema Displays).

> not true - there are now more than 17,000 programs available for OS X

There are easily ten times more available for Windows.

Additionally, programs like ntpd or nethack don't really count, since
they are only useful to UNIX gurus.

> there are dramatically fewer than this for each operating version for
> PC's - remember a program for Windows 98 won't run on XP and vice 
> versa.

Essentially all 32-bit Windows programs will run on both XP and Windows
98.  By now I'd guess that there are around a quarter-million such
programs in existence.

> Read below regarding processors - and if you want to run Linux - or
> Windows for that matter on a Mac - no problem - it will run them all- 
> concurrently with OSX  - AND - OS 9 if you so want - I still use a 
> program that died 5 years ago and only runs under system 9 - works 
> flawlessly!

Most versions of Windows will run only on Intel hardware, although NT
(and perhaps still Windows 2000?) have been built for one or two other
platforms, and 64-bit versions of Windows are now in beta (still on
Intel hardware, IIRC).

Does Mac OS X run on Intel x86 hardware now?

> I've been using Macs since 1984 - my freedom consist of always being
> able to work - knowing that my machines always work - never crashes - 
> do what I want them to do, never get viruses - don'[t get obsolete in a
> few years, I can add parts and 3rd part stuff to them and they still 
> work ...

All of this is equally true for both Macs and PCs, so it's not an
argument specifically in favor of Macs.

> ... my major desktop is now a 4 year old G4 - upgraded (by myself)
> with a 3rd party processor, has 11 drives (usb and Firewire) hooked up
> to it as well as 2 SCSI scanners - 1 film, 1 flatbed - connected to 2 
> 3rd party SCSI cards and 1 Firewire burner and 2 printers. It works - 
> always - and Photoshop CS never crashes as it seems to do on an umber 
> of PC users in these forums - and I routinely work with 1 GB files.

Here again, all of this is possible with PCs as well.

> It still is the platform of choice for those who insist on reliability
> and speed - even Microsoft uses MAcs for all their publishing 
> needs..

There's no difference in reliability or speed between Macs and PCs, so
again, this is not a criterion of choice that favors the Mac (or the
PC).

What leads you to believe that Microsoft is using Macs for their
electronic publishing?  All the major and necessary tools run on Windows
(indeed, some are now written primarily for Windows, such as Photoshop).

> Not so if you read these lists..=*^)

You shouldn't believe everything you read on lists.

> Once I stopped using Microsoft programs about 6 years ago in OS 9 I
> never had any problems - system 9 was quite reliable if you understood
> it - and gave each program you used twice the minimum memory it 
> wanted...

Current operating systems are reliable whether you "understand" them or
not.

It doesn't make sense to give a program twice the memory it wants,
although I suppose it doesn't hurt (as long as there is plenty of memory
in the system).

> Again - not so from the posts on this very list.

This list is one of the last places I'd look for expert opinions on
operating systems.  I have several decades of experience with them that
I consider vastly more reliable.

> Here we go again with the argument that Mac is an expensive platform
> ...

This has been the case every time I've compared prices, and other say
the same.  It's a major factor working against greater market
penetration for the Mac.

> ... if you configure a well regarded PC makers machine the same as
> a Mac ...

You can't.  They are two different hardware platforms.

> ... you must also take into consideration that the Mac does not
> become obsolete as fast ...

Neither platform becomes obsolete as long as your needs do not change.
And if your needs change, your system becomes obsolete no matter which
platform it is based on.

> ... is more productive - many, many studies has proven this.

No studies have proven anything of the kind.  It's impossible to measure
productivity objectively enough to produce such statistics.

> I support the notion that the most geeky users will choose PC's -
> often because they want to build their own - but that the least geeky 
> users buy Macs I think is not why they choose Macs - rather it is ease
> of use - aesthetic beauty of the machines - yes, really - and because 
> they WORK!..=*^)

Ease of use + aesthetic beauty = non-geek, and aesthetic beauty = not
average user as well (most people don't care what their computer looks
like, as long as it gets the job done).

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Re: Re: mac vs PC

2005-01-22 by Bob Frost

Christer,

> remember a program for Windows 98 won't run on XP and vice versa.

Absolute rubbish!

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Christer Rosewelll" <christerart@...>

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