Digital BW, The Print

I haven't had solidly good results using the HPR profile (for the 
2200) that is currently included with QTR. The prints are a bit dark 
and flat in the midtones. (In contrast,I am getting crisper prints 
with EEM using the EEM profile and have also had good results with 
Eclipse Satine (no OBA version) using the PFA profiles.) I've 
improved the HPR print quality a bit using the slider, but this is a 
trial and error approach that uses more paper than I'd like. Are any 
of you getting good prints on your 2200 with HPR using QTR and the 
Epson UC inks? If so, I'd love to hear what settings your using.

Chris Hargens

> I haven't had solidly good results using the HPR profile (for the 
> 2200) that is currently included with QTR. The prints are a bit dark 
> and flat in the midtones. 
> Chris Hargens

Which inkset are you using? Epson or MIS?

Are your settings correct in Photoshop and the driver? Same as Source selected in "print 
with preview"?

Are you softproofing? I found with the 2200 softproofing is needed. As mentioned here's 
the softproofing link:

http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html#softproof

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo" 
<jvlist@c...> wrote:

> 
> Which inkset are you using? Epson or MIS?
I'm using the Epson inkset.
> 
> Are your settings correct in Photoshop and the driver? Same as 
Source selected in "print 
> with preview"?

I'm not sure I understand your question here. Since I'm printing with 
QTR I don't see why my Photoshop print settings should matter.
> 
> Are you softproofing? I found with the 2200 softproofing is needed. 
As mentioned here's 
> the softproofing link:
 
> http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html#softproof

Thanks for the link. I'm not softproofing. I haven't had any problems 
with getting good matches between my screen and EEM and other papers, 
including William Turner (with PFA profile), so I haven't made an 
attempt to softproof with HPR

Chris Hargens

> I'm not sure I understand your question here. Since I'm printing with 
> QTR I don't see why my Photoshop print settings should matter.

In the Print with Preview window the Print Space should be "Same as Source". If not, an icc 
profile will be applied - that's one profile too many if printing with QTR. You will have 
double color managment which you don't want.

>  I haven't had any problems 
> with getting good matches between my screen and EEM and other papers, 
> including William Turner (with PFA profile), so I haven't made an 
> attempt to softproof with HPR

OK I got it. PhotoRag is the only problem paper. See if soft proofing helps.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens"
<chargens@s...> wrote:
> 
> > Are your settings correct in Photoshop and the driver? Same as 
> Source selected in "print 
> > with preview"?
> 
> I'm not sure I understand your question here. Since I'm printing
with 
> QTR I don't see why my Photoshop print settings should matter.
> > 

It seems to matter big time. I was choosing Printer Color Management,
figuring that PS would pass everything along to the QTR, because no
one told me better. My densest shadow tones were completely
posterized. All solved by choosing "Same as Source". And Roy's new
gray profiles improved screen to print matching another big step.

Carl Schofield's Soft Proofs worked well for me. If you install them, and
work on your image from the start in soft proof mode, (probably applying an
S curve somewhere in your workflow) I think you’ll be satisfied with the
results.

Some extra tweaking might be necessary with the slides until you find what
looks good to you. I sometimes use HPR (with QTR-UC) and am pleased with
what I get.

Hope this helps.

José

 

 


> I'm not sure I understand your question here. Since I'm printing with 
> QTR I don't see why my Photoshop print settings should matter.

In the Print with Preview window the Print Space should be "Same as Source".
If not, an icc 
profile will be applied - that's one profile too many if printing with QTR.
You will have 
double color managment which you don't want.

>  I haven't had any problems 
> with getting good matches between my screen and EEM and other papers, 
> including William Turner (with PFA profile), so I haven't made an 
> attempt to softproof with HPR

OK I got it. PhotoRag is the only problem paper. See if soft proofing helps.





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.





  _____  

Yahoo! Groups Links

*	To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
  
*	To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Uns
ubscribe> 
  
*	Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > > Are your settings correct in Photoshop and the driver? Same as
> > Source selected in "print
> > > with preview"?
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand your question here. Since I'm printing
> with
> > QTR I don't see why my Photoshop print settings should matter.
> > >
>
> It seems to matter big time. I was choosing Printer Color Management,
> figuring that PS would pass everything along to the QTR, because no
> one told me better. My densest shadow tones were completely
> posterized. All solved by choosing "Same as Source". And Roy's new
> gray profiles improved screen to print matching another big step.

I think Chris may be printing on a PC, so it has nothing to do with
Photoshop - correct Chris?

(because of problems with QTR and Win2000 on my main machine, I currently
print from a laptop with QTR that doesn't even have Photoshop on it).

Chris, I apply an S curve to the image along these lines (actually not so
strong a curve as suggested) for HPR and use the Premier Art or Entrada
curves with maybe 2 on the shadows and 3 on the gamma:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Kale
> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 6:50 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: roark vs qtr - newbie q.
>
>
>
> I think the major reason why QTR prints out of the box can look a little
> flat is because of the combination of two key factors: (1) the relatively
> weak dMax (the maximum density (or least reflectance) generated by 100%
> black) of matte papers, around 1.6-7, and so the available contrast is
> relatively low, and (2) the way QTR does its linearization - not
> that it is
> necessarily wrong - one must pick a methodology - but because people don't
> understand it.  The first is a fact of life, the second needs to be
> understood and so compensated for if deemed necessary.
>
> If you want to see on screen the effect this weak dMax and QTR's
> linearization do the following.  Open a Gray Gamma 2.2 step wedge.  Add a
> Curves Layer (Layer->New Adjustment Layer->Curves->Enter).  Grab
> the bottom
> left anchor point and slide it up to (0,41) and grab the top right anchor
> and pull it down to (255,243).  Now look at how the input/outputs for the
> points in the middle have changed eg 128. For the most part, the image is
> lighter because the better part of the straight line has been shifted up
> (128 has gone to 142).  (Note that there is still nice visual separation
> between the steps on the screen which is QTR's linearization goal.)  When
> people say an image is flat it is largely, I believe, because all the
> mid-tones have been brightened.
>
> There is no getting around the low dMax short of printing to a
> paper or with
> an ink that leads to better blacks.  So what can you do with what you are
> stuck with?  Ultimately it involves compromise.  If you look at
> point 128 in
> the curve above and trace across to its output you will see it, 142, is
> halfway between 243 and 41 - input values are spread evenly over the
> available output range.  If you pull 128 back down to (128,128) your
> mid-tones head back towards where they were before but there is greater
> compression "in the shadows" than "in the highlights".  (In essence, when
> Paul is doing his curves he targets this midpoint and pulls it back a bit
> leaving a little more compression in the shadows than the highlights.)  Ok
> now drag the 128 point off the curves chart so that it disappears - you
> should now have a straight line again.  Hit OK. Leave it visible.
>
> Add another curves layer. Lock (128,128).  Grab (63,63) and pull it down a
> little say to (63,43).  Grab (192,192) and shift it up a little say to
> (192,213).  This is what is meant by an s-curve - it is shaped like an s.
> You are adding a little punch to the highlights and darkening the
> shadows a
> little without shifting the mid.  You can view the effect of the second
> curve by itself by turning the visibility of the first off.  The effect on
> the image though will be the two curves combined.  The selection of points
> and how much to move them is really an artistic one but you have to judge
> the two together which is why I said keep the first curve visible.  Note
> that the first curve (a representation or simulation of what the RIP is
> doing) shifted the mid up point up and the second left it the same - ie
> still up.  So your mid grey will still be lighter than the original image
> without the curves.  You might choose to pull the mid darker in the second
> curve to counteract the effect of the RIP.  It's up to you.
>
> If you don't use a soft-proof, adding the first curve is a good
> approximation for QTR's built in transformation for printing to
> matte paper.
> Put this curve up first, add and adjust the second so that the image looks
> to your likening.  Before printing, though, delete the first curve.  You
> don't want the effect to occur twice - it is already done by QTR and your
> curve was there so you could see the effect on screen and so design your
> adjustment curve.

Are you still having problems with Win2000 with the QuadToneRIP 2.1f
release?
 
 
-Stephen
 www.sbillard.org/Stephen

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Atherton [mailto:timatherton@...] 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 11:32 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: QTR HPR profile



(because of problems with QTR and Win2000 on my main machine, I currently
print from a laptop with QTR that doesn't even have Photoshop on it).





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Are you still having problems with Win2000 with the QuadToneRIP 2.1f
> release?

Yep - something somewhere is conflicting

When I load any of the recent releases anywhere after 2.1.2 up to 2.1f it
won't hold the settings and each time I start QTR it reverts to it's
"virgin" mode with the help dialogue coming up. And when it closes down says
the ini file can't be written (and every now and then another odd bug
message will come up)

This is even so after i recently did a fairly major cleanout of my system
where I dumped a lot of unused software.

One thing that it may conflict with is Imageprint? I have no way of telling
this though and as IP itself is fairly touchy I'm not even going to begin
thinking about uninstalling it to see...

So right now I have a slow old laptop with Win2000 on it and not much else
(just the usual MS Office, Solitaire IE and a few others) QTR runs fine on
that and it's networked to the printer so I just run it from there for
now...


tim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tim Atherton 
<timatherton@t...> wrote:

> I think Chris may be printing on a PC, so it has nothing to do with
> Photoshop - correct Chris?

Exactly -- I work up the file in PS, save it as a tif, and then open 
it in the QTRgui. I found that my printing improved -- both easier 
and better quality -- some time ago by adopting Roy's first LAB 
grayscale as my working space, but I've been having problems with 
HPR -- the prints are almost there but not quite. Anyway, the 
suggestions offered here should definitely solve my problem. Thanks.

Chris Hargens

Hello, I have a C86 that right now I am using for color prints, but I 
was wondering if When using the EZ inks, is there a kind of powdery 
haze of ink residue that you can wipe off with your finger?
The color inks do that on all papers except matte. I always wipe it off 
with a micro-fiber cloth. Just wondering if that also happens with Mis 
pigments.
Thanks, Doug M

I use the MIS EZ inks and have never experienced what you are talking 
about.

Could it be the paper you are using (flaking)?

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Meeuwsen 
<lipshurt@m...> wrote:
> Hello, I have a C86 that right now I am using for color prints, but 
I 
> was wondering if When using the EZ inks, is there a kind of powdery 
> haze of ink residue that you can wipe off with your finger?
> The color inks do that on all papers except matte. I always wipe it 
off 
> with a micro-fiber cloth. Just wondering if that also happens with 
Mis 
> pigments.
> Thanks, Doug M