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QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage

QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage

2005-01-29 by Tom Husband

Anybody using the new QTR gray-matte or photo printer profiles when
printing to file with Qimage?  I don't think it's possible as Q
converts the image to rgb and then chokes on the gray-matte profile. 
I had to print to file as rgb without a profile and then take it in to
Photoshop to convert to grayscale and add the gray-matte profile. 
Then I could print with QTR.

We really need to convince Mike Chaney to add grayscale printing
capability to Qimage.

I like the results though awkward as it is.

Tom

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage

2005-01-29 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Husband" 
<thusband@s...> wrote:
> 
> Anybody using the new QTR gray-matte or photo printer profiles when
> printing to file with Qimage?  I don't think it's possible as Q
> converts the image to rgb and then chokes on the gray-matte profile. 
> I had to print to file as rgb without a profile and then take it in to
> Photoshop to convert to grayscale and add the gray-matte profile. 
> Then I could print with QTR.
> 
> We really need to convince Mike Chaney to add grayscale printing
> capability to Qimage.
> 
> I like the results though awkward as it is.
> 
> Tom


Seems like there ought to be an easier way.  I have to learn more about the
details of what Qimage is doing.  When you have a grayscale image in
Qimage and want to print it -- can you, do you have to pick an RGB 
profile for printing when you are sending it to a file?  
I'm trying to figure out how much color management is going on and if
you have control over it.

Roy

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage

2005-01-29 by Tom Husband

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington"
<roy@h...> wrote:
 
> Seems like there ought to be an easier way.  I have to learn more
about the
> details of what Qimage is doing.  When you have a grayscale image in
> Qimage and want to print it -- can you, do you have to pick an RGB 
> profile for printing when you are sending it to a file?  
> I'm trying to figure out how much color management is going on and if
> you have control over it.
> 
> Roy

I can't print a grayscale with Qimage.  It will take the grayscale and
print as RGB.  I tried to print a grayscale with your gray-matte
profile and Qimage flashed an I/O error and shut down.  You can print
a grayscale with or without an RGB profile but it's converted to RGB.

The fix would be for Qimage to recognize and print grayscales.

Tom

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage

2005-01-30 by ferdinand_paris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington"
<roy@h...> wrote:
> Seems like there ought to be an easier way.  I have to learn
> more about the details of what Qimage is doing.  When you have
> a grayscale image in Qimage and want to print it -- can you, do
> you have to pick an RGB profile for printing when you are
> sending it to a file?  I'm trying to figure out how much color
> management is going on and if you have control over it.
> 
> Roy

As others have said, Qimage will only output RGB.  I think that most
of us who are using Qimage to prepare input for QTR are turning off
the profile, so that it is an untagged RGB image. It seems that you
have to do this for genuinely grayscale images.  Given the way that
Qimage works, I actually keep my B&W images as monochrome RGB.  I
could attach a profile, but it would be a colour one and I assume that
QTR would ignore it?

Because I've always done it this way, I don't really understand what
QTR does with profiles (since I don't attach one).  If an image has a
profile attached, what does QTR do with the profile?  If Mike got
around to supporting grayscale, and we could tag the output file with
an appropriate profile, what difference would this make?  If I
attached a colour profile to my RGB images, would QTR do anything
with it?

(Sorry if this is a dumb question)

F_P

RE: [Digital BW] Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage

2005-01-30 by Paul A. Yesnosky

> Because I've always done it this way, I don't really understand what
> QTR does with profiles (since I don't attach one).  If an image has a
> profile attached, what does QTR do with the profile?  If Mike got
> around to supporting grayscale, and we could tag the output file with
> an appropriate profile, what difference would this make?  If I
> attached a colour profile to my RGB images, would QTR do anything
> with it?

Okay, here is the way I think about it.

When we "convert to profile" gray-matte, we are changing the color values of
the image to match what is required by QTR in order to get output that is
close to what we see on the screen.

But, we have no way of making sure these color values of the image stay
intact through Qimage.  I have no problem with Qimage converting to RGB if
that is what is necessary within its color space, but what does it convert
the image color values to when it does this?  And, after processing the
image, because the images is saved to a file as an untagged RGB, print
drivers and RIPs downstream don't know how to interpret the color values of
the image.  They must just take whatever values are there and operate on
them.

If Qimage allowed at a minimum the ability to convert from its RGB color
work space back to gray-matte at a printer icc profile, then it would take
the color values it converted to when the file was loaded and convert it
back to "gray-matte", tag the image and save it to a file.  This would be
the same a PS using gray-matte as its output profile.

Even if QTR does nothing with the attached profile itself, if the color
values of the image have been converted back to gray-matte by Qimage, the
color values would be appropriate for QTR (assuming the downstream system
was calibrated and linearized to this profile).

If this is not possible, then the real way to use the new gray-lab working
space in a PC environment is to load the image, work on it in gray-lab,
convert to gray-matte, process through Qimage to get the untagged RGB.  Then
you need to send your image or reference file to QTR, look at or measure the
output and then tweak gray-matte until you get an output profile that is
calibrated to whatever Qimage does when it converts to untagged RGB and how
QTR processes that untagged RGB.

If Roy created gray-matte (and gray-photo) assuming you would take output
directly from PS using gray-matte as your printer ICC and fed that directly
to QTR (a la how you do on a MAC), they the gray-matte and gray-photo are
not exactly what us PC users who use Qimage need.  It's fine for PC users
who do all processing in PS and save their TIF at exact print resolution in
PS because when they convert to gray-matte and save the file, they are doing
exactly what is done on the MAC.  But, PC users who use Qimage I think need
a modified version of gray-matte/gray-photo or a change in Qimage to allow
it to convert back to gray-matte on saving of the TIF file.

(At least this is how I think it works...)

Paul

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage

2005-01-30 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris" 
<ferdinand_paris@y...> wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington"
> <roy@h...> wrote:
> > Seems like there ought to be an easier way.  I have to learn
> > more about the details of what Qimage is doing.  When you have
> > a grayscale image in Qimage and want to print it -- can you, do
> > you have to pick an RGB profile for printing when you are
> > sending it to a file?  I'm trying to figure out how much color
> > management is going on and if you have control over it.
> > 
> > Roy
> 
> As others have said, Qimage will only output RGB.  I think that most
> of us who are using Qimage to prepare input for QTR are turning off
> the profile, so that it is an untagged RGB image. It seems that you
> have to do this for genuinely grayscale images.  Given the way that
> Qimage works, I actually keep my B&W images as monochrome RGB.  I
> could attach a profile, but it would be a colour one and I assume that
> QTR would ignore it?
> 
> Because I've always done it this way, I don't really understand what
> QTR does with profiles (since I don't attach one).  If an image has a
> profile attached, what does QTR do with the profile?  If Mike got
> around to supporting grayscale, and we could tag the output file with
> an appropriate profile, what difference would this make?  If I
> attached a colour profile to my RGB images, would QTR do anything
> with it?
> 
> (Sorry if this is a dumb question)
> 
> F_P


It looks like Qimage doesn't deal with gray spaces in a general way.
Aborting the program is a little drastic!

I'm thinking I may be able to make an rgb version of the gray spaces.

Roy

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage... Device Class

2005-01-31 by johnglodge

...Not related to Qimage but:

the device class of the gray-lab.icc profile is "output" rather than
"display" it should not be able to be used as a working space except
by applications that are bending the rules.

To be generally used as a working space the device class needs to be
changed to "display".


...John


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington"
<roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Husband" 
> <thusband@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > Anybody using the new QTR gray-matte or photo printer profiles when
> > printing to file with Qimage?  I don't think it's possible as Q
> > converts the image to rgb and then chokes on the gray-matte profile. 
> > I had to print to file as rgb without a profile and then take it in to
> > Photoshop to convert to grayscale and add the gray-matte profile. 
> > Then I could print with QTR.
> > 
> > We really need to convince Mike Chaney to add grayscale printing
> > capability to Qimage.
> > 
> > I like the results though awkward as it is.
> > 
> > Tom
> 
> 
> Seems like there ought to be an easier way.  I have to learn more
about the
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> details of what Qimage is doing.  When you have a grayscale image in
> Qimage and want to print it -- can you, do you have to pick an RGB 
> profile for printing when you are sending it to a file?  
> I'm trying to figure out how much color management is going on and if
> you have control over it.
> 
> Roy

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage... Device Class

2005-01-31 by johnglodge

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnglodge" 
Nope still does not work, changing the device class to mntr does not
fix it. But all the other working spaces I have have an XYZ PCS rather
than Lab PCS (with output profiles I have seen both).

...John



<john.lodge@s...> wrote:
> 
> ...Not related to Qimage but:
> 
> the device class of the gray-lab.icc profile is "output" rather than
> "display" it should not be able to be used as a working space except
> by applications that are bending the rules.
> 
> To be generally used as a working space the device class needs to be
> changed to "display".
> 
> 
> ...John
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington"
> <roy@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Husband" 
> > <thusband@s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Anybody using the new QTR gray-matte or photo printer profiles when
> > > printing to file with Qimage?  I don't think it's possible as Q
> > > converts the image to rgb and then chokes on the gray-matte
profile. 
> > > I had to print to file as rgb without a profile and then take it
in to
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > > Photoshop to convert to grayscale and add the gray-matte profile. 
> > > Then I could print with QTR.
> > > 
> > > We really need to convince Mike Chaney to add grayscale printing
> > > capability to Qimage.
> > > 
> > > I like the results though awkward as it is.
> > > 
> > > Tom
> > 
> > 
> > Seems like there ought to be an easier way.  I have to learn more
> about the
> > details of what Qimage is doing.  When you have a grayscale image in
> > Qimage and want to print it -- can you, do you have to pick an RGB 
> > profile for printing when you are sending it to a file?  
> > I'm trying to figure out how much color management is going on and if
> > you have control over it.
> > 
> > Roy

QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage -- Solved -- RGB Version

2005-01-31 by Roy Harrington

I've added a set of the same basic Lab and Printing profiles that have
been changed to RGB format.   These should be used for printing 
using Qimage.  Set the printer output icc profile to one of the rgb profiles.
I'm not positive how to change the file profile to RGB Lab in Qimage but it
works fine in Photoshop.   

Note that the RGB Lab space is a true RGB space but it has a transfer function
with linear Luminosity rather than a Gamma transfer function.   It is not a
space with an L, a, & b channel.  It might be interesting to use this for color work.

Roy

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage -- Solved -- RGB Version

2005-01-31 by Chris Hargens

I cannot convert/assign to the RGB Lab space. I'm getting an error 
message telling me that the icc profile is invalid. I'm running PS 6, 
but I don't think that should make a difference. I also experienced 
the same problem when I tried to change my working space to RGB Lab 
space.

Chris Hargens



  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy 
Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I've added a set of the same basic Lab and Printing profiles that 
have
> been changed to RGB format.   These should be used for printing 
> using Qimage.  Set the printer output icc profile to one of the rgb 
profiles.
> I'm not positive how to change the file profile to RGB Lab in 
Qimage but it
> works fine in Photoshop.   
> 
> Note that the RGB Lab space is a true RGB space but it has a 
transfer function
> with linear Luminosity rather than a Gamma transfer function.   It 
is not a
> space with an L, a, & b channel.  It might be interesting to use 
this for color work.
> 
> Roy

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage -- Solved -- RGB Version

2005-01-31 by Roy Harrington

Does seem to be PS 6.   It works in PS 7 and PS CS but I also tried PS 6
and it doesn't recognize any of the profiles.   Where did you get the
error message?  I could get any way to even select it.

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens" 
<chargens@s...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> I cannot convert/assign to the RGB Lab space. I'm getting an error 
> message telling me that the icc profile is invalid. I'm running PS 6, 
> but I don't think that should make a difference. I also experienced 
> the same problem when I tried to change my working space to RGB Lab 
> space.
> 
> Chris Hargens
> 
> 
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy 
> Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I've added a set of the same basic Lab and Printing profiles that 
> have
> > been changed to RGB format.   These should be used for printing 
> > using Qimage.  Set the printer output icc profile to one of the rgb 
> profiles.
> > I'm not positive how to change the file profile to RGB Lab in 
> Qimage but it
> > works fine in Photoshop.   
> > 
> > Note that the RGB Lab space is a true RGB space but it has a 
> transfer function
> > with linear Luminosity rather than a Gamma transfer function.   It 
> is not a
> > space with an L, a, & b channel.  It might be interesting to use 
> this for color work.
> > 
> > Roy

Re: [Digital BW] QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage -- Solved -- RGB Version

2005-01-31 by Ernst Dinkla

Roy Harrington wrote:
> 
> 
> I've added a set of the same basic Lab and Printing profiles that have
> been changed to RGB format.   These should be used for printing 
> using Qimage.  Set the printer output icc profile to one of the rgb profiles.
> I'm not positive how to change the file profile to RGB Lab in Qimage but it
> works fine in Photoshop.   
> 
> Note that the RGB Lab space is a true RGB space but it has a transfer function
> with linear Luminosity rather than a Gamma transfer function.   It is not a
> space with an L, a, & b channel.  It might be interesting to use this for color work.
> 
> Roy

Roy,

I have tried all kinds of programs with all the 6 QTR (RGB +
Gray) profiles on XP and 2000pro and one way or another I get
very different appearances in the menus. The profile
installation order may have an influence. I know, there's no
logic in that.

Done so far:
Photoshop CS + Picture Window Pro on W2000pro, Photoshop
Elements and Qimage on XP. Could try Photopaint 9 but that one
isn't installed right now.

Both Picture Window Pro and Qimage are based on LCMS  open
source but they do not behave similar.

One thing for sure is that Qimage doesn't show QTR
RGB Lab in the color spaces choices menu on XP. However it
appears in the monitor and printer profile choices like the
other 5 (RGB +GRAY) profiles do. Photoshop Elements does the
same but its black box approach defaults to Adobe RGB (in
advanced CM mode) as the space so I can't tell whether it
actually notices the QTR RGB Lab space profile. No chance to
select another space AFAIK.

Had several meltdowns of Qimage, some with the message that
lcms couldn't cope with the profile while Qimage was
processing a print file.

The only way it seems to work is by making in PS a greyscale
RGB file with QTR RGB Lab embedded and loading that file in
Qimage, printing it to file with the QTR RGB Matte or Gloss
printer profile. All dry trials as I can't run QTR right now
with the Ultratone inks in the "wrong" ink channels. A true
greyscale Tiff with QTR Gray Lab embedded and printed the same
way doesn't work with the QTR RGB printer profiles. It runs
but the processed tiff shows a lot of black..

Ernst

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage -- Solved -- RGB Version

2005-01-31 by Chris Hargens

BTW, I'm working with a PC running XP. I loaded the profiles in the 
Drivers folder -- same place the grayscale lab profiles are loaded, 
which do work. I can see the RGB profiles listed both when I choose 
to assign or convert, also when I choose a working space. Problem is 
after I select the profile I get the error message after I press OK 
to close the window. Also, I've tested the profiles with Qimage. Both 
RGB matte and photo profiles can be selected. Given that Qimage can 
embed printer profiles in saved/converted images, I just tried 
printing to file in Qimage (specifying QTR RGB Matte paper as the 
printer profile) a file saved in the Gray lab space in PS. When I 
opened the Qimage printed-to-file file in PS a message indicated that 
QTR RGB Matte paper was the embedded color profile but would not 
allow me to continue because the "embedded icc profile" is invalid. 
To continue I had to "ignore" the profile. I was left with an 
untagged document. The same file does open in QTRgui, presumably with 
the printer profile intact. I wonder if this means I can skip the 
step of working in RGB Lab space -- just stay in Gray lab -- and have 
Qimage do the job of converting to QTR RGB paper when it converts 
grayscale to RGB.

Chris Hargens




  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy 
Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Does seem to be PS 6.   It works in PS 7 and PS CS but I also tried 
PS 6
> and it doesn't recognize any of the profiles.   Where did you get 
the
> error message?  I could get any way to even select it.
> 
> Roy
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris 
Hargens" 
> <chargens@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > I cannot convert/assign to the RGB Lab space. I'm getting an 
error 
> > message telling me that the icc profile is invalid. I'm running 
PS 6, 
> > but I don't think that should make a difference. I also 
experienced 
> > the same problem when I tried to change my working space to RGB 
Lab 
> > space.
> > 
> > Chris Hargens
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy 
> > Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I've added a set of the same basic Lab and Printing profiles 
that 
> > have
> > > been changed to RGB format.   These should be used for printing 
> > > using Qimage.  Set the printer output icc profile to one of the 
rgb 
> > profiles.
> > > I'm not positive how to change the file profile to RGB Lab in 
> > Qimage but it
> > > works fine in Photoshop.   
> > > 
> > > Note that the RGB Lab space is a true RGB space but it has a 
> > transfer function
> > > with linear Luminosity rather than a Gamma transfer function.   
It 
> > is not a
> > > space with an L, a, & b channel.  It might be interesting to 
use 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > this for color work.
> > > 
> > > Roy

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage -- Solved -- RGB Version

2005-01-31 by Chris Hargens

Yes, just ran a QTR Gray Lab file through Qimage with the QTR RGB 
Matte printer profile selected. I then printed the resulting RGB file 
using QTR. The print looked good in the midtones and highlights but 
the the darker shadows had gone black.

Chris Hargens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
 A true
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> greyscale Tiff with QTR Gray Lab embedded and printed the same
> way doesn't work with the QTR RGB printer profiles. It runs
> but the processed tiff shows a lot of black..
> 
> Ernst

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage -- Solved -- RGB Version

2005-01-31 by Roy Harrington

This sounds like Black Point Compensation not being turned on.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens" <chargens@s...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> Yes, just ran a QTR Gray Lab file through Qimage with the QTR RGB 
> Matte printer profile selected. I then printed the resulting RGB file 
> using QTR. The print looked good in the midtones and highlights but 
> the the darker shadows had gone black.
> 
> Chris Hargens
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
> <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
>  A true
> > greyscale Tiff with QTR Gray Lab embedded and printed the same
> > way doesn't work with the QTR RGB printer profiles. It runs
> > but the processed tiff shows a lot of black..
> > 
> > Ernst

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage -- Solved -- RGB Version

2005-02-01 by Chris Hargens

Black Point Compensation was turned on. Even so, seems like there 
should be a simple fix to this problem. Perhaps upgrading to PS7. 

Chris 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" 
<roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> This sounds like Black Point Compensation not being turned on.
> 
> Roy
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris 
Hargens" <chargens@s...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, just ran a QTR Gray Lab file through Qimage with the QTR RGB 
> > Matte printer profile selected. I then printed the resulting RGB 
file 
> > using QTR. The print looked good in the midtones and highlights 
but 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > the the darker shadows had gone black.
> > 
> > Chris Hargens
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
> > <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> >  A true
> > > greyscale Tiff with QTR Gray Lab embedded and printed the same
> > > way doesn't work with the QTR RGB printer profiles. It runs
> > > but the processed tiff shows a lot of black..
> > > 
> > > Ernst

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage -- Solved -- RGB Version

2005-02-01 by Roy Harrington

It appears that with Qimage and little cms, black point compensation and/or
perceptual intent work differently than with the Adobe CMM unless I'm setting
it up wrong too.  Do you have both Qimage and PS?

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens" 
<chargens@s...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Black Point Compensation was turned on. Even so, seems like there 
> should be a simple fix to this problem. Perhaps upgrading to PS7. 
> 
> Chris 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" 
> <roy@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > This sounds like Black Point Compensation not being turned on.
> > 
> > Roy
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris 
> Hargens" <chargens@s...> 
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Yes, just ran a QTR Gray Lab file through Qimage with the QTR RGB 
> > > Matte printer profile selected. I then printed the resulting RGB 
> file 
> > > using QTR. The print looked good in the midtones and highlights 
> but 
> > > the the darker shadows had gone black.
> > > 
> > > Chris Hargens
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
> > > <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> > >  A true
> > > > greyscale Tiff with QTR Gray Lab embedded and printed the same
> > > > way doesn't work with the QTR RGB printer profiles. It runs
> > > > but the processed tiff shows a lot of black..
> > > > 
> > > > Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage -- Solved -- RGB Version

2005-02-01 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@c...> 
wrote:
> Roy Harrington wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I've added a set of the same basic Lab and Printing profiles that have
> > been changed to RGB format.   These should be used for printing 
> > using Qimage.  Set the printer output icc profile to one of the rgb profiles.
> > I'm not positive how to change the file profile to RGB Lab in Qimage but it
> > works fine in Photoshop.   
> > 
> > Note that the RGB Lab space is a true RGB space but it has a transfer function
> > with linear Luminosity rather than a Gamma transfer function.   It is not a
> > space with an L, a, & b channel.  It might be interesting to use this for color 
work.
> > 
> > Roy
> 
> Roy,
> 
> I have tried all kinds of programs with all the 6 QTR (RGB +
> Gray) profiles on XP and 2000pro and one way or another I get
> very different appearances in the menus. The profile
> installation order may have an influence. I know, there's no
> logic in that.
> 
> Done so far:
> Photoshop CS + Picture Window Pro on W2000pro, Photoshop
> Elements and Qimage on XP. Could try Photopaint 9 but that one
> isn't installed right now.
> 
> Both Picture Window Pro and Qimage are based on LCMS  open
> source but they do not behave similar.
> 
> One thing for sure is that Qimage doesn't show QTR
> RGB Lab in the color spaces choices menu on XP. However it
> appears in the monitor and printer profile choices like the
> other 5 (RGB +GRAY) profiles do. Photoshop Elements does the
> same but its black box approach defaults to Adobe RGB (in
> advanced CM mode) as the space so I can't tell whether it
> actually notices the QTR RGB Lab space profile. No chance to
> select another space AFAIK.
> 
> Had several meltdowns of Qimage, some with the message that
> lcms couldn't cope with the profile while Qimage was
> processing a print file.
> 
> The only way it seems to work is by making in PS a greyscale
> RGB file with QTR RGB Lab embedded and loading that file in
> Qimage, printing it to file with the QTR RGB Matte or Gloss
> printer profile. All dry trials as I can't run QTR right now
> with the Ultratone inks in the "wrong" ink channels. A true
> greyscale Tiff with QTR Gray Lab embedded and printed the same
> way doesn't work with the QTR RGB printer profiles. It runs
> but the processed tiff shows a lot of black..
> 
> Ernst

Hi Ernst,

I'm new to using Qimage so I don't know all the nuances of it.  
I can select any of the 6 QTR profiles in the ICC page -- i.e. input,
monitor and print as long as I select "All Windows Profiles".   If I select
any of the gray ones though whenever I use it little-cms complains
about colorspace and the program exits.  But the RGB ones seem to
be accepted except the conversion to the Matte Paper profile seems to
truncate the black end rather than do a nice smooth curve.  I don't know
if that's built into lcms or if its controlable.

Roy

Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage -- Solved -- RGB Version

2005-02-01 by Chris Hargens

Yes, I have both. I've found within Qimage that I am able to convert 
Gray Lab to QTR RGB and then convert to RGB Matte paper. However, the 
image still gets dark. I haven't experimented with the settings much 
yet. Also, even when I embed the QTR RGB into the file through a 
Qimage conversion, PS says that the profile is invalid.

Chris 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" 
<roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> It appears that with Qimage and little cms, black point 
compensation and/or
> perceptual intent work differently than with the Adobe CMM unless 
I'm setting
> it up wrong too.  Do you have both Qimage and PS?
> 
> Roy
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris 
Hargens" 
> <chargens@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > Black Point Compensation was turned on. Even so, seems like there 
> > should be a simple fix to this problem. Perhaps upgrading to PS7. 
> > 
> > Chris 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy 
Harrington" 
> > <roy@h...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > This sounds like Black Point Compensation not being turned on.
> > > 
> > > Roy
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris 
> > Hargens" <chargens@s...> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, just ran a QTR Gray Lab file through Qimage with the QTR 
RGB 
> > > > Matte printer profile selected. I then printed the resulting 
RGB 
> > file 
> > > > using QTR. The print looked good in the midtones and 
highlights 
> > but 
> > > > the the darker shadows had gone black.
> > > > 
> > > > Chris Hargens
> > > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst 
Dinkla 
> > > > <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> > > >  A true
> > > > > greyscale Tiff with QTR Gray Lab embedded and printed the 
same
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > > > > way doesn't work with the QTR RGB printer profiles. It runs
> > > > > but the processed tiff shows a lot of black..
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage -- Solved -- RGB Version

2005-02-01 by Ernst Dinkla

Roy, you wrote:


> I'm new to using Qimage so I don't know all the nuances of it.  
> I can select any of the 6 QTR profiles in the ICC page -- i.e. input,
> monitor and print as long as I select "All Windows Profiles". 

Strange, will check that but I have little time today.

   If I select
> any of the gray ones though whenever I use it little-cms complains
> about colorspace and the program exits.

Correct.

   But the RGB ones seem to
> be accepted except the conversion to the Matte Paper profile seems to
> truncate the black end rather than do a nice smooth curve.  I don't know
> if that's built into lcms or if its controlable.

I've only tried the matte one so gloss is the other one to do.

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] Re: QTR Gray Profiles and Qimage -- Solved -- RGB Version

2005-02-01 by Ernst Dinkla

Chris, you wrote:
> 
> Yes, I have both. I've found within Qimage that I am able to convert 
> Gray Lab to QTR RGB and then convert to RGB Matte paper. However, the 
> image still gets dark. I haven't experimented with the settings much 
> yet. Also, even when I embed the QTR RGB into the file through a 
> Qimage conversion, PS says that the profile is invalid.

I got the same PS message with Tiff files produced by Qimage's 
"print to file".  But in the Qimage>QTR flow the embedded 
profile shouldn't matter, the image data should have been 
processed by the CM profiles and after that  the RGB file 
accepted as a plain RGB file ready to be converted to 
greyscale in QTR.

Ernst

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