Digital BW, The Print

What a wonderful forum you all have. I am just getting started with 
monochrome inks and could use some advice as I move in that direction. 
If I wish to dedicate one printer for color and one for B&W., should I 
begin printing B$W on my 5 color Epson photo stylus 750 and get a new 
color printer with the latest options, or should I keep the 750 for 
color and acquire a new printer for B&W? 
 
My goal is to produce the best B&W prints possible.  I have heard many 
good comments about the Epson 1160 for monochrome which I can get 
through e-bay factory reconditioned.  I have not heard much talk of a 
new generation printer that is better for B&W.  Now that Lyson has a 
chip programmer it seems that ink compatability is not as much as a 
problem.  Can anyone reccommend a printer under $500 that is better 
than the 1160?  Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,  Stephen Gross  Boston

Hey Folks,

I'm ready to take the plunge into a dedicated B&W printing system. I 
currently have an Epson Stylus Photo 750. I need some advice 
regarding which way to go:

Should I, a)make my 750 a B&W printer? or b) should I pick up another 
Epson to use for B&W?

If I go with a, then I'd get a CIS system and use the MIS inks for my 
B&W prints and add another printer for color (possibly the C-80).

If b, then I'd appreciate some recommendations. The ones I'm mainly 
looking at are the Epson 860 and 980. I believe they're both 4-color 
printers and that they're supported by the piezo system should I 
decided to go that route. Is there any appreciable differences in the 
output of the 860 and 980? I only print 6"X9" so I can appreciate 
that the differences would be minimal. With option b, I could still 
get a CIS for my 750 and explore other color inksets such as the 
Enhanced Generations inks.

Well, I think that's about it. I'd appreciate any words of wisdom the 
group is willing to share.

Sincerely,

Mark

I need to get going with some printing for a portfolio, so although I might want to get 
a 4000, I need something right away. 

I have a few options. One is  an Epson 1160 printer with CIS setup from a service 
bureau I work with for $200. Another is to buy a refurbished or new  Epson 1280 
(around $350-$400)and the last is to buy an Epson 2200 at around $650.

Certainly I'd rather spend less than more, but are there any compelling reasons for 
going with one printer over another in terms of quality, realiability or consistency.  I 
don't want to scrimp if I pay for it in wasted time or lost materials.  I just need to 
make a decision and get going with printing in the next couple of days to meet some 
deadlines. I'm considering going with the Sundance or Piezo Tone systems.  

Any thoughts on the printer and inksets would be appreciated.

IMO you have to add the price of IP to the 2200 cost if you are doing 
b&w.  I can only comment on it and the 1160, but the 2200+IP, the 
2200 is much more "plug and play."  I find that my 1160 w/MIS VM inks 
cannot produce as smooth a tonal gradient as the 2200+IP... and when 
a difficult transition occurs on a smooth object or someone's cheek 
you get an annoying posterization which is hard to fix.  With texture 
rich subjects it is often not a problem and the 1160 is dirt cheap to 
run.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Birnbach" 
<allenbirnbach@s...> wrote:
> I need to get going with some printing for a portfolio, so although 
I might want to get 
> a 4000, I need something right away. 
> 
> I have a few options. One is  an Epson 1160 printer with CIS setup 
from a service 
> bureau I work with for $200. Another is to buy a refurbished or 
new  Epson 1280 
> (around $350-$400)and the last is to buy an Epson 2200 at around 
$650.
> 
> Certainly I'd rather spend less than more, but are there any 
compelling reasons for 
> going with one printer over another in terms of quality, 
realiability or consistency.  I 
> don't want to scrimp if I pay for it in wasted time or lost 
materials.  I just need to 
> make a decision and get going with printing in the next couple of 
days to meet some 
> deadlines. I'm considering going with the Sundance or Piezo Tone 
systems.  
> 
> Any thoughts on the printer and inksets would be appreciated.

Sorry, but what is "IP."

Thanks for the comments on the tonal transitions. Good information.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn" 
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> IMO you have to add the price of IP to the 2200 cost

Allen...It's hard to beat the 1280 with the Piezotones and the Piezo 
ICC profiles.  It's economical, dependable and produces great 
prints.  I understand the 1280/Piezotone combination won the B&W 
competition at the big photo show in Las Vegas last week; an 
indication of the quality you can get from that combination...Val

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Allen 
Birnbach" <allenbirnbach@s...> wrote:
.  
> 
> Any thoughts on the printer and inksets would be appreciated.

Image Print RIP (a fancy third party driver really) makes the 2200 do 
what you expect it do right out of the box, but it costs a lot.  With 
it the 2200 is a great setup.  Accurate colors and great b&w from the 
same inkset, but drives the total cost up to about $1000.  My only 
hesitation in buying one now would be that IMHO the new hp printers 
are so revolutionary that I think it is going to force Epson or Canon 
to do some real quick damage control and come up with something real 
new real fast before hp comes out with an updated killer $300 
(ballpark) wide carriage version with larger ink cartridges to 
directly compete with the 2200.  Had the hp 7660 not come along I 
would have a 2200+IP by now.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Birnbach" 
<allenbirnbach@s...> wrote:

> Sorry, but what is "IP."
> 
> Thanks for the comments on the tonal transitions. Good information.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn" 
> <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > IMO you have to add the price of IP to the 2200 cost

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Val Brunell" <vbrunell@d...> 
wrote:
> Allen...It's hard to beat the 1280 with the Piezotones and the Piezo 
> ICC profiles.

Are you using this combination?  Mark Hahn said in his post  about the 1160 "when
 a difficult transition occurs on a smooth object or someone's cheek
 you get an annoying posterization which is hard to fix."

Is that not a problem with the 1280 combination you mention?

Allen...Yes, I use this combination and the tonal transitions with 
the new ICC profiles are very nice.  My experience has been that 
posterization is a problem if I have to heavily manipulate an 
image.  But if I have a well-exposed and scanned image (4000 dpi) 
posterization has not been a problem, even with skin tones.  The 
fact that I am shooting med. format also helps as the image is 
enlarged...Val

with--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Allen 
Birnbach" <allenbirnbach@s...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Val Brunell" 
<vbrunell@d...> 
> wrote:
> > Allen...It's hard to beat the 1280 with the Piezotones and the 
Piezo 
> > ICC profiles.
> 
> Are you using this combination?  Mark Hahn said in his post  about 
the 1160 "when
>  a difficult transition occurs on a smooth object or someone's 
cheek

>  you get an annoying posterization which is hard to fix."
> 
> Is that not a problem with the 1280 combination you mention?

At 10:50 PM 2/16/04 +0000, you wrote:
>I need to get going with some printing for a portfolio, so although I 
>might want to get
>a 4000, I need something right away.
>
>I have a few options. One is  an Epson 1160 printer with CIS setup from a 
>service
>bureau I work with for $200. Another is to buy a refurbished or new  Epson 
>1280
>(around $350-$400)and the last is to buy an Epson 2200 at around $650.
>
>Certainly I'd rather spend less than more, but are there any compelling 
>reasons for
>going with one printer over another in terms of quality, realiability or 
>consistency.  I
>don't want to scrimp if I pay for it in wasted time or lost materials.  I 
>just need to
>make a decision and get going with printing in the next couple of days to 
>meet some
>deadlines. I'm considering going with the Sundance or Piezo Tone systems.
>
>Any thoughts on the printer and inksets would be appreciated.

Allen,

You didn't mention if you were doing color also.  For B/W you won't be 
disappointed with the MIS UT2 inks and a refurb 1280.  The 1160 is old tech 
and who knows the condition?.  For color the 1280 is very good but you need 
the 2200 for the archival inks.

Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us

Alan, if I'm not mistaken the 1280 uses the same b&w pigment inks as
the 2200. At least in the MIS line. And with just using the Epson
driver. No extra software needed for the 1280. 
Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alan Zinn
<AZinn@n...> wrote:
 For color the 1280 is very good but you need the 2200 for the
archival inks.

At 12:48 AM 2/18/04 +0000, you wrote:
>Alan, if I'm not mistaken the 1280 uses the same b&w pigment inks as
>the 2200. At least in the MIS line. And with just using the Epson
>driver. No extra software needed for the 1280.
>Bob Michaels
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alan Zinn
><AZinn@n...> wrote:
>  For color the 1280 is very good but you need the 2200 for the
>archival inks.
>

Bob,

I wasn't very clear on that - I meant the Epson color inks for the 2200 
have longer life than 1280 color inks.  That's correct isn't it??

AZ


Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us

Dear All,

I am going digital.. and I am buying a Nikon D200, keeping the 3
manual Nikon Lenses I have from the FM3A.

I've joined this group and already read endless articles on printing
and search through past posts and polls reagrding the printing side.
My main aim is to work with digital balck and white.

I am willing to invest a few £100s if that will give me a good
quality. Would anyone be so kind to recommend a good printer that,
among other things, will allow me experiment various printing
techniques/combinations including the BO printing

I am sure there is a good article/review somewhere to discuss this
very topic. Could you point me to any reading I can do to make an
informed decision please

Thank you fro your time
Al

ps
I know the D300 is just about to come out but it will about double the
price and it looks great but I'll settle for the D200 unless someone
has some experience/advice to share

Hello Al,

>I've joined this group and already read endless articles on printing
>and search through past posts and polls reagrding the printing side.
>My main aim is to work with digital balck and white.
> 
>I am willing to invest a few £100s if that will give me a good
>quality. Would anyone be so kind to recommend a good printer that,
>among other things, will allow me experiment various printing
>techniques/combinations including the BO printing

The first thing to decide is what size prints you want to make.  If a
letter size printer will do (8x10 prints), then the best way to get
started is with an R220.  They're out of production now but can still
be found on Ebay and some online vendors for around $100 or so.  The
220 has the Black Only option and also has refillable carts and chips
available, which means it can be used with many different ink sets,
some of which don't require a RIP (see article #10 at the link below).
 So it's a great printer for learning and experimenting and is capable
of top notch results.

It is replaced by the R260 which unfortunately doesn't have the BO
option, and carts/chips aren't available for it yet (I think-someone
correct me if that's wrong).  So it's not an option right now.

The R800 ($300+) does have carts/chips, but is quite more expensive
and requires a RIP for BW no matter what ink set you use.

Moving up to a 13" printer (11x14 prints) there is the 1800 (big
brother to the 800, $500+) and the 2400 (uses K3 inks and has ABW
mode, doesn't need a RIP, $700+).  

It all depends on how much you want to spend and how you want to work.
This is just a brief overview, hope it helps.  

 
>I am sure there is a good article/review somewhere to discuss this
>very topic. Could you point me to any reading I can do to make an
>informed decision please

There are several articles on BW digital printing at the link below.



>I know the D300 is just about to come out...

This forum is dedicated to printing issues and tends to stay on focus,
so is not the right place to start a camera discussion.  I recommend
the Nikon forum at dpreview.com


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton,

thank you very much for the advice and related reading list. I think I
will go for the 2400 as soon as I can have the cash. Meanwhile I've
bought a book on digital b&w printing with photoshop which looks quite
good.

I am now in Helsinki for work and have enjoyed the weekend taking some
 photos of this beautiful city! I cannot wait to get back home to
start playing with photoshop

Ciao
Al
 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Al,
> 
> >I've joined this group and already read endless articles on printing
> >and search through past posts and polls reagrding the printing side.
> >My main aim is to work with digital balck and white.
> > 
> >I am willing to invest a few £100s if that will give me a good
> >quality. Would anyone be so kind to recommend a good printer that,
> >among other things, will allow me experiment various printing
> >techniques/combinations including the BO printing
> 
> The first thing to decide is what size prints you want to make.  If a
> letter size printer will do (8x10 prints), then the best way to get
> started is with an R220.  They're out of production now but can still
> be found on Ebay and some online vendors for around $100 or so.  The
> 220 has the Black Only option and also has refillable carts and chips
> available, which means it can be used with many different ink sets,
> some of which don't require a RIP (see article #10 at the link below).
>  So it's a great printer for learning and experimenting and is capable
> of top notch results.
> 
> It is replaced by the R260 which unfortunately doesn't have the BO
> option, and carts/chips aren't available for it yet (I think-someone
> correct me if that's wrong).  So it's not an option right now.
> 
> The R800 ($300+) does have carts/chips, but is quite more expensive
> and requires a RIP for BW no matter what ink set you use.
> 
> Moving up to a 13" printer (11x14 prints) there is the 1800 (big
> brother to the 800, $500+) and the 2400 (uses K3 inks and has ABW
> mode, doesn't need a RIP, $700+).  
> 
> It all depends on how much you want to spend and how you want to work.
> This is just a brief overview, hope it helps.  
> 
>  
> >I am sure there is a good article/review somewhere to discuss this
> >very topic. Could you point me to any reading I can do to make an
> >informed decision please
> 
> There are several articles on BW digital printing at the link below.
> 
> 
> 
> >I know the D300 is just about to come out...
> 
> This forum is dedicated to printing issues and tends to stay on focus,
> so is not the right place to start a camera discussion.  I recommend
> the Nikon forum at dpreview.com
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>