Digital BW, The Print

For anyone who has avoided Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art paper because 
it has only been available in large sheets or rolls, I saw an 
announcement (by InkjetGoodies.com) that it will be available in 
13x19" sheets starting Feb. 28. This makes it practical for those of 
us with Epson 2200 printers. I plan to try it. Anyone have experience 
printing on this paper?

Arlen wrote:
> 
> For anyone who has avoided Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art paper because 
> it has only been available in large sheets or rolls, I saw an 
> announcement (by InkjetGoodies.com) that it will be available in 
> 13x19" sheets starting Feb. 28. This makes it practical for those of 
> us with Epson 2200 printers. I plan to try it. Anyone have experience 
> printing on this paper?

I've played around with the roll version using my 2200 (cut by hand, and 
flattened).  If the info that Epson provides on their web site is 
accurate, the sheet versions are significantly heavier and thicker than 
the roll version.

They list the roll as 250 gsm but show two versions of sheet, at 325 and 
500 gsm, with thicknesses of 21 and 30 mil.

	Walt

I have used UltraSmooth from a roll for a couple of years.  While the dmax
is less than the best acid free papers, I generally like it, and it does
very well in fade tests.  My conclusions are that it is basically the same
as PremierArt Fine Art Hot Press.  See the specs at
http://www.premierimagingproducts.com/pdf/media/Premier_Art_Hot_Press.pdf
and compare them to the new Epson sheets.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
____________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Walt Farrell [mailto:wftemp1@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:12 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson Ultrasmooth paper: soon to be in 13x19"
sheets


Arlen wrote:
> 
> For anyone who has avoided Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art paper because 
> it has only been available in large sheets or rolls, I saw an 
> announcement (by InkjetGoodies.com) that it will be available in 
> 13x19" sheets starting Feb. 28. This makes it practical for those of 
> us with Epson 2200 printers. I plan to try it. Anyone have experience 
> printing on this paper?

I've played around with the roll version using my 2200 (cut by hand, and 
flattened).  If the info that Epson provides on their web site is 
accurate, the sheet versions are significantly heavier and thicker than 
the roll version.

They list the roll as 250 gsm but show two versions of sheet, at 325 and 
500 gsm, with thicknesses of 21 and 30 mil.

	Walt




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Have you tried Inkjetart's Illuminata Ultra Smooth? The specs & price 
look pretty impressive. I'm wondering how it would compare to Epson's 
Ultrasmooth. Also, considering its price, I've had good experience 
with the Alphasmooth paper. Although the paper is somewhat flimsy and 
the dmax is not great, I like its smooth rendition of tones -- great 
for proofing for a more expensive (better) non-OBA paper. 

Chris Hargens


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> I have used UltraSmooth from a roll for a couple of years.  While 
the dmax
> is less than the best acid free papers, I generally like it, and it 
does
> very well in fade tests.  My conclusions are that it is basically 
the same
> as PremierArt Fine Art Hot Press.  See the specs at
> 
http://www.premierimagingproducts.com/pdf/media/Premier_Art_Hot_Press.
pdf
> and compare them to the new Epson sheets.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> ____________________________
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walt Farrell [mailto:wftemp1@h...] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:12 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson Ultrasmooth paper: soon to be in 
13x19"
> sheets
> 
> 
> Arlen wrote:
> > 
> > For anyone who has avoided Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art paper 
because 
> > it has only been available in large sheets or rolls, I saw an 
> > announcement (by InkjetGoodies.com) that it will be available in 
> > 13x19" sheets starting Feb. 28. This makes it practical for those 
of 
> > us with Epson 2200 printers. I plan to try it. Anyone have 
experience 
> > printing on this paper?
> 
> I've played around with the roll version using my 2200 (cut by 
hand, and 
> flattened).  If the info that Epson provides on their web site is 
> accurate, the sheet versions are significantly heavier and thicker 
than 
> the roll version.
> 
> They list the roll as 250 gsm but show two versions of sheet, at 
325 and 
> 500 gsm, with thicknesses of 21 and 30 mil.
> 
> 	Walt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
OTHER

> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links

I've done a number of tests with my favourite rag and dual rag media, including all the 
Hahnemuhle I use and the Ultrasmooth has no ink transfer in a bound book situation when 
sprayed with either Premier Art, Lyson Printguard, or Lascaux. Actually there is no transfer 
that I have seen with this paper even when not sprayed.

All the other rag media I tested did have some black ink transfer over time with 
compressed under weight against a pure white sheet sprayed and unsprayed.

The great thing about Ultrasmooth ( Premier Art hotpress) to me is is durability. I belive 
they worked hard on this. I like that coating for tonal characteristics also. It  has the most 
scuff and scratch resistant surface that I know of, similar to Somerset but with a better 
tonal rendition, black, and smooth texture. It's only possible downside to me is its slightly 
less brilliant appearance in the hightlights becaue it is a natural color paper without 
optical brighteners.

 But like Paul said, that might make it more permanent in the long run. This is an issue 
that I would LOVE to know with more clarity. I stumble whenever I try to explain it to 
clients- the actual fade differences between 100% high-end rag papers with and without 
OB's?  Are there any actual tests to refer to? I think a lot of us are confused about the real 
differences and what we should be doing regarding this . I use them all these days. I spray 
all my papers that contain obs. I also know that all the old fiber darkroom prints had obs, 
but because of the surface of coated inkjet media, that may be mixing apples and oranges 
to discuss them in the same context.

John


wrote:

> I have used UltraSmooth from a roll for a couple of years.  While the dmax
> is less than the best acid free papers, I generally like it, and it does
> very well in fade tests.  My conclusions are that it is basically the same
> as PremierArt Fine Art Hot Press.  See the specs at
> http://www.premierimagingproducts.com/pdf/media/Premier_Art_Hot_Press.pdf
> and compare them to the new Epson sheets.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> ____________________________
> 
> -

John,


>... Ultrasmooth has no ink transfer in a bound book situation when 
>sprayed with either Premier Art, Lyson Printguard, or Lascaux. 
>Actually there is no transfer that I have seen with this paper 
>even when not sprayed.

>All the other rag media I tested did have some black ink transfer 
>over time with compressed under weight against a pure white sheet 
>sprayed and unsprayed.

>The great thing about Ultrasmooth ( Premier Art hotpress) to me 
>is durability. 

I agree.  Epson PremierArt Scrapbook paper is a related coating.  I think
durability and longevity were primary design goals.  The paper also seems to
smooth out all the dots, similar to what Photo Rag also does.  But the Photo
Rag surface is really sensitive.

>It's ... slightly less brilliant appearance in the hightlights becaue it 
>is a natural color paper without optical brighteners.
>... that might make it more permanent in the long run. 
>This is an issue that I would LOVE to know with more clarity. 
>I stumble whenever I try to explain it to clients- ...

Whether the OBAs make any difference in fade and age testing seems like an
open question and may depend on the type of brighteners used, and there are
apparently a number of different ones.  Note, however, that Epson Watercolor
Paper -- Radiant White has OBAs and does about the best in Wilhelm fade
tests.  On the other hand, while most acid free papers in dark storage tests
have a "more than" symbol (">") before the rating, Watercolor Paper has a
flat "250."  This is, of course, so long maybe it doesn't matter. But, the
other papers that lack the ">" symbol are EEM and Mate Heavyweight, clearly
not archival papers.  This observation may not, of course, have any
significance.

One reason I worry about papers with OBAs in them is that even if the paper
is archival, we know they will yellow as the OBAs burn out.  I think this
will be seen as purchasers as a sign that the paper is cheap.  If, for
example, the image was matted with a white border showing and is removed
from the matte & frame for storage after a few years of display, the
purchasers might see an outline of the matte board.  It might look like a
yellowing and deterioration of the paper that was exposed to light.  I don't
know how long it takes in typical display for this to show up, but it
clearly shows in my faded tests of, for example EEM.  

On the other hand, while UltraSmooth will not show any fading, per se, in
this same time frame, the carbon will have yellowed a bit, while it might
have actually gained density.  If the image was over-matted, this would also
be visible.  But, if there was a white border of UltraSmooth showing, there
would be no obvious "shadows" on either the image or paper of the
UltraSmooth print.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul,

Right, it is wrong to group all rag papers with Ob's as being the same. That is a mistake a 
lot of us make. There are various degrees of OB content and chemical composition. Say if 
you compare Legion Matte or Hawk Mt. bright white Condor, or Red River Premium Matte, 
they all have a lot more brightening going on than say H. Photo Rag or Somerset or even 
Enhanced Matte.

I guess what still is unclear to me is the results of Wilhelm's tests with Somerset rag and
the Epson Watercolor media which both contain Ob's yet have excellent ratings that often 
exceed 100% rag media without any ob's present at all. These tests are supposed to reflect 
discoloration of the whites ( yellowing) as well as image fade. How much of this is the 
result of uv and how much is the result of air pollution is also not clearly established.  The 
Premier sprayed Somerset prints have super major improvements in his data. That is why 
when in doubt I spray. I really wish he would test Hahnemuhle media. I've written so many 
times to them and gotten no response. They know half of us out here are using Photorag 
and William Turner for fine art applications.

Go look at the  new test results on Henry's site for the Ultrachrome black and white 
process. He's uped the permanence estimates and in many cases far beyond what I'd ever 
imagined. And, I image Pauls inks beat these results because they are carbon with no color 
content at all.

John


-One reason I worry about papers with OBAs in them is that even if the paper
is archival, we know they will yellow as the OBAs burn out. I think this
will be seen as purchasers as a sign that the paper is cheap. If, for
example, the image was matted with a white border showing and is removed
from the matte & frame for storage after a few years of display, the
purchasers might see an outline of the matte board. It might look like a
yellowing and deterioration of the paper that was exposed to light. I don't
know how long it takes in typical display for this to show up, but it
clearly shows in my faded tests of, for example EEM.

Paul

Hello John,

According to Diana York of Hawk Mtn papers, there are different kinds
of OBAs and the OBA technology is constantly improving.  I've also
gathered from some research that OBAs "burn off" (not a trade term,
BTW) in different ways, or with different effects.  Some may lose some
reflectivity (not be as bright) but not change color significantly. 
Some papers have OBAs in the paper and the coating, some only in the
coating (but who knows what that means...).  According to Diana, the
paper can't get any yellower than it was to begin with.  She said in
their papers they use white colored fibers to begin with, so that
there shouldn't be a dramatic color change (please see the OBA section
in the "Great Paper Chase" article at the link below).

My own experience with two of their papers bears this out.  I have
noticed that prints on Condor BW (pure white) lose some brightness
after a few months exposure (comparing an old print with a fresh one),
but haven't (so far) shown any color change - the print doesn't look
degraded or yellow, just a tad softer on the eyes.   With Merlin
Smooth, a warmer color to begin with, I haven't noticed any change at
all.  Of course, none of this is scientific and only spans about a
year.  We don't know what will happen over many years. 

All of the above, however enlightening, tells us nothing, really.  In
the various papers we use, we don't know what kinds of OBAs are used,
or how much, whether it's in the paper, coating or both, or what will
happen over time.  That detailed information doesn't seem to be
available.  

I'm not terribly worried about it myself.  One reason is that I've got
some silver prints on OBA containing paper (Oriental Seagull, etc)
that have been laying around for 20 years and they still look
extremely bright.   Also, my windowsill ink fade tests on PR prints,
some of which have been receiving bright daylight and partial sunlight
every day for over a year, have shown ink fading but not paper color
change under the cover strips.  My feeling is that these papers are
using the latest in OBA technology, and I just don't expect to see
significant changes.  I know I'm taking a chance, but I really don't
like the look of the warmer papers as much.

Everyone is going to have to make up their own mind based
on...whatever.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm