Digital BW, The Print

Todd, 

Am I understanding this right.....You are getting "inconsistencies" with MIS VM inks? 

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Todd Flashner 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 3:07 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Printer inconsistencies, was VM curves


  on 11/17/01 5:32 AM, Adrian Joyner wrote:

  > Paul
  > 
  > I think that you may be right about printer variation. You may recall that I
  > have discussed with you in the past how VM handles low value detail compared
  > to Piezo and how the latter resolves, IMHO, this much better. The image that
  > Tim asked me to print had easily discernable detail that VM, unlike Piezo,
  > just did not satisfactorily print. The VM 1160 is the same as I have always
  > used and passes the usual nozzle and alignment checks perfectly.

  I've noticed that my separation of lower values had diminished recently. I
  used all 4 of Paul's VMM11 curves (for Mac and 1160) to print out Tyler's
  Zees not long ago (in the files section. No better test I know of for tonal
  separation) with very good success. Today, with no changes to ink, paper, or
  workflow, I have less separation of my lower tones.

  So, I know it's not the quality of the curves that is at fault, or a
  difference between printers, or materials. The only changes that are coming
  to mind is climate, and printer usage, neither of which has altered that
  dramatically in the month or two since my excellent results with the same
  test.

  I find so much of this so terribly frustrating. The mysterious
  inconsistencies. Sometimes in smooth tones areas my prints will have a
  corduroy patterned banding (running perpendicular to the travel of the head)
  and sometimes microbanding or sub-microbanding (not real sure about what
  either of these terms really means, but what I get is fine white "etch"
  lines which run parallel to the print head movement. Very tiny, like little
  grain lines, which gives a mechanical feel to the print. Need to look pretty
  close to see it (but how close to subconsciously perceive it?)). Then other
  days these things are NOT present.

  Do other people get minor variance with their systems day to day or week to
  week, or do I just make my printer moody with my demands? (I think that
  would be my wife's guess)

  Todd


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Todd, 
> 
> Am I understanding this right.....You are getting "inconsistencies" with MIS
> VM inks? 


Yes my experience with this printer includes both Piezo inks and MIS VM. But
incase your question is "is MIS VM prone to greenies or DSS" I don't know,
but I don't think what I am referring to is as drastic as either of those.
My point was I think printers go through periods of subtle variance, which
makes predictability difficult.

I think what I am speaking to is printer inconsistencies that occur without
regard to what ink is in them. I sometimes get this microbanding (would
someone please define microbanding and submicrobanding for me, and what is
the corduroy banding called?) even on my 1270 with Epson inks.

Sorry if I misunderstood where you were coming from.

Todd

> I've noticed that my separation of lower values had diminished recently. I
> used all 4 of Paul's VMM11 curves (for Mac and 1160) to print out Tyler's
> Zees not long ago (in the files section. No better test I know of for tonal
> separation) with very good success. Today, with no changes to ink, paper, or
> workflow, I have less separation of my lower tones.
> 
> So, I know it's not the quality of the curves that is at fault, or a
> difference between printers, or materials. The only changes that are coming
> to mind is climate, and printer usage, neither of which has altered that
> dramatically in the month or two since my excellent results with the same
> test.
> 
> I find so much of this so terribly frustrating. The mysterious
> inconsistencies. Sometimes in smooth tones areas my prints will have a
> corduroy patterned banding (running perpendicular to the travel of the head)
> and sometimes microbanding or sub-microbanding (not real sure about what
> either of these terms really means, but what I get is fine white "etch"
> lines which run parallel to the print head movement. Very tiny, like little
> grain lines, which gives a mechanical feel to the print. Need to look pretty
> close to see it (but how close to subconsciously perceive it?)). Then other
> days these things are NOT present.
> 
> Do other people get minor variance with their systems day to day or week to
> week, or do I just make my printer moody with my demands? (I think that
> would be my wife's guess)
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
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No, You got it.  

I agree with the inconsistency of printers possibility.  Makes sense to me.  

As for the inconsistency of MIS VM inks....I mean...my gosh...what next?  

(wINK)

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Todd Flashner 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 5:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Printer inconsistencies, was VM curves



  > Todd, 
  > 
  > Am I understanding this right.....You are getting "inconsistencies" with MIS
  > VM inks? 


  Yes my experience with this printer includes both Piezo inks and MIS VM. But
  incase your question is "is MIS VM prone to greenies or DSS" I don't know,
  but I don't think what I am referring to is as drastic as either of those.
  My point was I think printers go through periods of subtle variance, which
  makes predictability difficult.

  I think what I am speaking to is printer inconsistencies that occur without
  regard to what ink is in them. I sometimes get this microbanding (would
  someone please define microbanding and submicrobanding for me, and what is
  the corduroy banding called?) even on my 1270 with Epson inks.

  Sorry if I misunderstood where you were coming from.

  Todd

  > I've noticed that my separation of lower values had diminished recently. I
  > used all 4 of Paul's VMM11 curves (for Mac and 1160) to print out Tyler's
  > Zees not long ago (in the files section. No better test I know of for tonal
  > separation) with very good success. Today, with no changes to ink, paper, or
  > workflow, I have less separation of my lower tones.
  > 
  > So, I know it's not the quality of the curves that is at fault, or a
  > difference between printers, or materials. The only changes that are coming
  > to mind is climate, and printer usage, neither of which has altered that
  > dramatically in the month or two since my excellent results with the same
  > test.
  > 
  > I find so much of this so terribly frustrating. The mysterious
  > inconsistencies. Sometimes in smooth tones areas my prints will have a
  > corduroy patterned banding (running perpendicular to the travel of the head)
  > and sometimes microbanding or sub-microbanding (not real sure about what
  > either of these terms really means, but what I get is fine white "etch"
  > lines which run parallel to the print head movement. Very tiny, like little
  > grain lines, which gives a mechanical feel to the print. Need to look pretty
  > close to see it (but how close to subconsciously perceive it?)). Then other
  > days these things are NOT present.
  > 
  > Do other people get minor variance with their systems day to day or week to
  > week, or do I just make my printer moody with my demands? (I think that
  > would be my wife's guess)
  > 
  > Todd
  > 
  > 
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  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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  > 
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  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
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  > 


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

on 11/17/01 6:37 PM, Todd Flashner wrote:

> I think what I am speaking to is printer inconsistencies that occur without
> regard to what ink is in them.


BTW, One test of this is if Piezo users can print Tyler's Zee's with perfect
separation, time and again, without banding of any kind. Tyler's Zee's is a
target that represents all 100 grayscale tones, and any workflow/printer
that can reproduce it cleanly and distinctly (and without color crossover)
is a good system in my book.

I am of the mind that if the Piezo profiles work sufficiently well enough to
do that on everybody's printer every time, A) there can't be too great a
variance between printers, B) there can't be too great a variance within a
single printers performance over time.

I believe that since Piezo(TM) has a larger installed base than MIS VM,
across a wider spectrum of printers, and with a wider spectrum of paper
specific profiles, it is the best mechanism by which to test printer
variance at large.

DSS, and Greenies is another story, but even while monitoring for onset of
either of those conditions, I recommend printing Tyler's Zee's over nozzle
checks or any other target that I know.

Todd

>> .....You are getting "inconsistencies" ...

Todd wrote:

>Yes my experience with this printer includes both Piezo inks
>and MIS VM. But in case your question is "is MIS VM prone to
>greenies or DSS" I don't know, but I don't think what I am
>referring to is as drastic as either of those.
>My point was I think printers go through periods of subtle variance, which
>makes predictability difficult.

>I think what I am speaking to is printer inconsistencies that occur without
>regard to what ink is in them. ...

Todd,

I agree.  My 1160 is + or - about 1-2%.  Sometime it will be quite
consistent for a long while, then things are slightly different.  It's
happened with Piezo and MIS.  Also, I used to have banding that would show
up every once in a while with Piezo.  I have not noticed it (yet) with MIS.

I appear to have suffered from the "greenies" without knowing it with Piezo.
I thought that was just its normal behavior.  But when I put some Piezo in
carts, it was less green than my old CIS and much darker.

I don't think the MIS VM could cause a green shift, however, because there
is no dye in it.  I'm convinced the green is coming from dye in Piezo.

I'm going to try to find some Piezo ink that has never been near to CIS,
since I think they may be a part of the problem.

I've also heard that the Piezo co-solvent base may be too viscous for the
Epson heads.  That alone or in combination with the co-solvent's greater
"aggregating" (read clumping?) character and lower solubility could be at
the heart of the problem.

The MIS VM black is also a co-solvent ink.  So far, it seems to be OK,  but
I hedged my bet by making the VM curves/system compatible with the old MIS
quad black also.

My observations are that the Piezo problems seem to be with the midtones,
not the black.  Does this coincide with others' experiences?

The MIS VM and FS midtones use mostly the traditional MIS clear base, which
is not a co-solvent base.  So, I think we are fairly safe with the midtones.
I do worry a bit about the black ink.

It would be a shame if we were in a position where the best black (Piezo and
Vm/FS probably being the same ink) was an inherent problem.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

>DSS, and Greenies is another story, but even while monitoring for onset of
>either of those conditions, I recommend printing Tyler's Zee's over nozzle
>checks or any other target that I know.

Please excuse this as a newbie question, I have been reading for a couple
of weeks now and still have not figured it out and thought it was time to ask.

What exactly does DSS and DDS stand for? I understand the problems/
symptoms to be a green shift and clogs in the print heads and that they
are usually related to CIS but have been unable to figure out what the
letters mean.

thanks,

cort anderson

on 11/17/01 11:23 PM, Cort Anderson wrote:

>> DSS, and Greenies is another story, but even while monitoring for onset of
>> either of those conditions, I recommend printing Tyler's Zee's over nozzle
>> checks or any other target that I know.
> 
> Please excuse this as a newbie question, I have been reading for a couple
> of weeks now and still have not figured it out and thought it was time to ask.
> 
> What exactly does DSS and DDS stand for? I understand the problems/
> symptoms to be a green shift and clogs in the print heads and that they
> are usually related to CIS but have been unable to figure out what the
> letters mean.

 Fellow named Jim Hayes coined it. I think it's Density Shift Syndrome, or
something like that. DDS has something to do with dentistry if I'm not
mistaken. ;-)

Todd

Barron's Dictionary of Computer and Internet Terms defines DSS as "(Digital 
Signature Alogorithm) a U.S. federal standard for digital signatures using 
the Digital Signature Algorithm (DSA),"  How does this relate to Density 
Shift Syndrome?     SCB

From: Todd Flashner <tflash@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Re(2): [Digital BW] Printer inconsistencies, was VM curves
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 23:56:24 -0500

on 11/17/01 11:23 PM, Cort Anderson wrote:

 >> DSS, and Greenies is another story, but even while monitoring for onset 
of
 >> either of those conditions, I recommend printing Tyler's Zee's over 
nozzle
 >> checks or any other target that I know.
 >
 > Please excuse this as a newbie question, I have been reading for a couple
 > of weeks now and still have not figured it out and thought it was time to 
ask.
 >
 > What exactly does DSS and DDS stand for? I understand the problems/
 > symptoms to be a green shift and clogs in the print heads and that they
 > are usually related to CIS but have been unable to figure out what the
 > letters mean.

  Fellow named Jim Hayes coined it. I think it's Density Shift Syndrome, or
something like that. DDS has something to do with dentistry if I'm not
mistaken. ;-)

Todd



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> 

(snip)
> 
> I think what I am speaking to is printer inconsistencies that occur 
without
> regard to what ink is in them. I sometimes get this micro banding 
(would
> someone please define micro banding and submicrobanding for me, and 
what is
> the corduroy banding called?) even on my 1270 with Epson inks.
> 

Todd,

My understanding of these terms:

Micro banding is fine white or light colored lines that are visible 
at normal viewing distances.

Sub-micro banding is the same but requires magnification to detect 
and is not visible at normal viewing distances.

Corduroy banding is a banding pattern with no detectable light 
between the bands. This may just be something similar to brush marks. 

My experience with Piezo on a 1200 was that I was always getting sub-
micro banding in the 25 - 50% tones in very smooth sections of the 
prints. These sometimes got bad enough to be micro banding.

With MIS VM on a 1280 I have fine corduroy banding in the 50%-80% 
tones that can only be seen with magnification.

Some sort of linear pattern in the direction of head movement appears 
to be very common in inkjet prints. If the image has a fine pattern 
such as foliage or simply enough grain, the linear bands are 
completely broken up and cannot be seen even under magnification. 
Using a textured paper also can disrupt the appearance of banding to 
some extent. Some prints and printers seen to not suffer this problem 
at all. Maybe this is where the 7000 and up printers have an edge.

Bottom line, if you have to get out a loupe to see it, I wouldn't 
worry about it. If you are seeing it at normal viewing distances, 
then it is the old routine of align the heads, clean the heads and if 
that doesn't work try for an exchange from Epson.

Martin



(snip)

Thanks Martin,

Now are all these "artifacts" for lack of a better word common to both the
Epson driver and Piezo? Can the Piezo driver also give the corduroy effect?

I've got something between micro and sub-micro banding. I don't see it at
24" but I see it at 6". It just gives a coarseness that looks sorta like
grain, but it does have a more mechanical feel to it. I guess there just
isn't enough overlap of the dots as the paper feeds through the printer. The
advance must not be finely tuned. Is there some way to lube that?

I also get the corduroy effect (sometimes!) which runs perpendicular to the
head travel. What the heck could cause that?

I wonder if it's worth swapping with Epson. Sounds like I could do worse.

Todd

> Todd,
> 
> My understanding of these terms:
> 
> Micro banding is fine white or light colored lines that are visible
> at normal viewing distances.
> 
> Sub-micro banding is the same but requires magnification to detect
> and is not visible at normal viewing distances.
> 
> Corduroy banding is a banding pattern with no detectable light
> between the bands. This may just be something similar to brush marks.
> 
> My experience with Piezo on a 1200 was that I was always getting sub-
> micro banding in the 25 - 50% tones in very smooth sections of the
> prints. These sometimes got bad enough to be micro banding.
> 
> With MIS VM on a 1280 I have fine corduroy banding in the 50%-80%
> tones that can only be seen with magnification.
> 
> Some sort of linear pattern in the direction of head movement appears
> to be very common in inkjet prints. If the image has a fine pattern
> such as foliage or simply enough grain, the linear bands are
> completely broken up and cannot be seen even under magnification.
> Using a textured paper also can disrupt the appearance of banding to
> some extent. Some prints and printers seen to not suffer this problem
> at all. Maybe this is where the 7000 and up printers have an edge.
> 
> Bottom line, if you have to get out a loupe to see it, I wouldn't
> worry about it. If you are seeing it at normal viewing distances,
> then it is the old routine of align the heads, clean the heads and if
> that doesn't work try for an exchange from Epson.
> 
> Martin

Martin Wesley wrote:
<<
My experience with Piezo on a 1200 was that I was always getting sub-
micro banding in the 25 - 50% tones in very smooth sections of the
prints. These sometimes got bad enough to be micro banding.

With MIS VM on a 1280 I have fine corduroy banding in the 50%-80%
tones that can only be seen with magnification.
>>
Are you using a Cone Piezography driver on both printers?

I have used Piezography inks with both the Cone Piezography driver and
Epson's driver. With the Cone driver driver it is virtually impossible to
avoid some form of artifact somewhere in the grayscale, usually only visible
in smooth toned areas. It takes several forms including banding and
patterning. The problem is that the Cone driver requires perfecty printhead
alignment in all axes. Most of us cannot achieve that. I find the Epson
driver more forgiving and therefore prefer it.

Tim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
<snip>

> DSS, and Greenies is another story, but even while monitoring for 
onset of
> either of those conditions, I recommend printing Tyler's Zee's over 
nozzle
> checks or any other target that I know.
> 
> Todd

Nozzle checks do not help at all in diagnosing DSS, you well likely 
get a perfect nozzle check and still could have bad DSS.

I have been lax in printing out Tyler's Z for a "reference print" to 
check for DSS, but agree that it is probably a marvelous image to 
print out every 3 weeks to check for DSS. It would really show up the 
flattened midtones symptom of DSS. The only additional thing that 
might be nice is to have an additional step wedge and a familiar test 
print like the "staircse image" except that it be extremely grainy- 
bad, like ISO 800 or more. I find some graininess seems to help detect 
the other DSS symptoms. FWIW,
Jim H.

Comments below added by Jim Hayes... :-)



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., 
> on 11/17/01 11:23 PM, Cort Anderson wrote:
> 


> > What exactly does DSS and DDS stand for?

DDS stands for typos on the part of respondants. The only thing I know 
of it standing for is Doctor of Denistry. Unless you have a 
toothache and are feeling grouchy enough to complain of it on list, 
please avoid this typo as it apparently causes confusion.<G>

DSS is the proper acronym, it stands for "Density Shift Syndrome". It 
was formerly called "Hayes Syndrome", and theories as to why it 
occured were referred to as "Dunn-Kravit Hypothesis" Knowing these 
three terms, you can do a exhaustive search in the Piezo 3000 forum to 
root out just about all posts. Please do not equate it with "green 
tone". This is a common mistake.  It has nothing to do with the one 
time proposed "green print" problem, except that that DSS does have a 
symptom where the print can appear green in certain circumstances. But 
I tell people to discount this symptom to avoid confusion, and because 
color perception varies from person to person. There are plenty of 
other symptoms to nail down the ailment.


 I understand the 
problems/
> > symptoms to be a green shift and clogs in the print heads

Wrong!!! See my comment about green tone above. CLogs are NOT a 
symptom of DSS except that when you have reached "terminal stage" 
difficult clogs can occur. Green tone and clogs are SOMETIMES 
symptomatic of DSS when it has reached terminal stage, assuming you 
have the other symptoms. In fact, you will most likely get PERFECT 
nozzle checks up to terminal stage and possibly beyond. Terminal stage 
is when DSS reaches a dramatic, sudden explosive increase of volume of 
symptoms within a day or two, or a couple of prints.

Again, the symptoms: 1:flattening of midtones. 2: Overall lighting of 
print. 3:Compression of highlights and shadows. Although the print is 
lighter, you may find there is not much difference between 85%k and 
95%k...85%k looks as if it got as dark as 95%k I mean. This is also 
expressed as loss of detail in highlights and shadows. 4: 
Posterization. 5: Increase in contrast, sometimes expressed as a 
"roughening" of tonal transistions like cement walls and grainy 
images. 5: A greenish cast may begin to appear in advanced stages, I 
see it most in midtones. You are approaching terminal stage at this 
point. 6: AT terminal stage, the print looks absolutely horrible, but 
some people, including me get horrible clogs as well, to the point 
that drastic measures need be taken. I also got ink blotting over my 
print. A mess. Other people don't have it as bad.

Notice that the green cast symptom and the clogging problem are 
qualified as "may" and "some". And that these symptoms are listed 
last, and as only occuring near terminal stage.

Look for symptoms 1 and 2, they are the most noticable. Some people 
saw number 4 first.

 and that 
they
> > are usually related to CIS

This is not confirmed, and should not be taken as fact. I know of one 
person who had what appears to be DSS with Piezo inks in carts. It 
went away when he switched to CIS AND a competitor's inkset. He has 
printed a LOT since then without problems.

There are a few statisical fallicies (I think) which would need to be 
ironed out to be able to query people as to whether they have more DSS 
with carts or CIS, and get a meaningful answer.

 but have been unable to figure out what 
the
> > letters mean.

<Todd's comments and Jims...>

> 
>  Fellow named Jim Hayes coined it. I think it's Density Shift 
Syndrome,

Yes.

 or
> something like that. DDS has something to do with dentistry if I'm 
not
> mistaken. ;-)


<GG>
Jim H.

> 
> Todd

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Sanford Barnes" 
<sanfordcbarnes@h...> wrote:
> Barron's Dictionary of Computer and Internet Terms defines DSS as 
"(Digital 
> Signature Alogorithm) a U.S. federal standard for digital signatures 
using 
> the Digital Signature Algorithm (DSA),"  How does this relate to 
Density 
> Shift Syndrome?     SCB


No relation.
Would anyone get confused if we kept using DSS? I wanted a name 
descriptive of the problem and able to be shortened to a few letters. 
And not use my name anymore. I can't think up another name, and if it 
kept changing more than it has it would be difficult to track in list 
searches...
Jim H.

What, exactly, are you supposed to see in Tyer's Zz's print? (if it is
printed correctly)?
 On the monitor It looks like a single tone.

Jerry




Todd Flashner wrote:

> 
> on 11/17/01 6:37 PM, Todd Flashner wrote:
> 
> > I think what I am speaking to is printer inconsistencies that occur without
> > regard to what ink is in them.
> 
> BTW, One test of this is if Piezo users can print Tyler's Zee's with perfect
> separation, time and again, without banding of any kind. Tyler's Zee's is a
> target that represents all 100 grayscale tones, and any workflow/printer
> that can reproduce it cleanly and distinctly (and without color crossover)
> is a good system in my book.
> 
> I am of the mind that if the Piezo profiles work sufficiently well enough to
> do that on everybody's printer every time, A) there can't be too great a
> variance between printers, B) there can't be too great a variance within a
> single printers performance over time.
> 
> I believe that since Piezo(TM) has a larger installed base than MIS VM,
> across a wider spectrum of printers, and with a wider spectrum of paper
> specific profiles, it is the best mechanism by which to test printer
> variance at large.
> 
> DSS, and Greenies is another story, but even while monitoring for onset of
> either of those conditions, I recommend printing Tyler's Zee's over nozzle
> checks or any other target that I know.
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
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> 
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
<tflash@e...> 
> wrote:

> With MIS VM on a 1280 I have fine corduroy banding in the 50%-80% 
> tones that can only be seen with magnification.
> 

> Martin

Same thing here on an 1160. I can see it with naked eye 6 inches away 
but only under an Ott-lite held at 3 inches or so and in even toned 
areas in the densities you describe. I think that's good enough for 
me.<g>

Interestingly, when I use MIS FS inks with Woolf's workflow, it IS 
visible farther away and with other light sources. If I use FS with 
Roark's VM curves it appears as desribed above (like the VM inks, 
except light tones are off of course). When I use FS inks with Piezo 
driver, I can't even see the slightest under the Ott-lite, but I have 
problems with the darker transistions that would have to be fixed 
(could just be my personal preference really) by a transform curve or 
something...
Jim H.

> What, exactly, are you supposed to see in Tyer's Zz's print? (if it is
> printed correctly)?
> On the monitor It looks like a single tone.
> 
> Jerry


Jerry, Below you have it in Tyler's words. Let me know if you don't still
don't understand. BTW, if all you see is one tone, either the file is
corrupted, or your monitor is all screwed up. It represents all 100 shades
of a grayscale file. To print it use Paul's curves on it just as you would
any image. It'll show you how well it separates tones that are 1% apart. I'm
told Piezo does it perfectly throughout, and Paul's Mac based vmm11-2 curves
for the 1160 do an admirable job for me, when my printer is in the mood.

In short there are 20 individual boxes, which should show separation between
each other, and inside each of those 20 boxes are Zees, which should show
separation from the box it's within.

Todd

Tyler explains:

Within each square is a gradation of 5% right to left. In other words,
the bottom right square gradates from 1% to 5%, the next square from 6%
to 10%, with enough total squares to get to 100%. The last (upper left)
square is 96% to 100%.
Within each square is a Z made up of solid value of the middle
percentage of that square. So the Z in the bottom right square is 3%,
the one in the next square 8%, etc.. It was created in the 2.2 gamma
gray space.
I made this file to evaluate my sep curves on paper. The workflow is
applied to the file, and printed.
On the print, first look for a delineation from one square to the next
for overall gradation problems. Secondly, each Z should appear against a
background square that is faintly lighter behind it on the right, and
faintly darker behind it on the left. I've found areas that need work
are fairly well revealed with this.
Dan decided it was useful for actual curve development by eye on the
monitor if you are working with RGB quad profiles, that's why he put it
with his procedure.
But I use it mostly for verification, it seems to show me specifically
where things need attention that are creating problems in images. The
other interesting thing is that often curves seem fine, then suddenly a
different sort of image looks bad, but this will show almost any problem.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> Thanks Martin,
> 
> Now are all these "artifacts" for lack of a better word common to 
both the
> Epson driver and Piezo? Can the Piezo driver also give the corduroy 
effect?

Sit down with the last print exchange, a loupe and see what you find. 
I have read reports of dark banding with piezo. Not as common as 
light banding. Since the Epson driver uses "Microweave" and Piezo 
apparently does not I would expect some differences.

> 
> I've got something between micro and sub-micro banding. I don't see 
it at
> 24" but I see it at 6". It just gives a coarseness that looks sorta 
like
> grain, but it does have a more mechanical feel to it. I guess there 
just
> isn't enough overlap of the dots as the paper feeds through the 
printer. The
> advance must not be finely tuned. Is there some way to lube that?

Well 6" isn't a normal viewing distance. I don't see any lubrication 
on the feed mechanism gears so applying lube might not be a good idea.
> 
> I also get the corduroy effect (sometimes!) which runs 
perpendicular to the
> head travel. What the heck could cause that?

Theoretically that should be what the head alignment fixes. How old 
is your printer and how many sheets have you put through it? There 
has got to be some point where they reach end of life.

> 
> I wonder if it's worth swapping with Epson. Sounds like I could do 
worse.

Well just exchange it again if it is worse. Other people have posted 
that this worked out well for them eventually. A real pain though.

Martin
> 
(snip)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tim Mimpriss" 
<tim.mimpriss@t...> wrote:
> Martin Wesley wrote:
> <<
> My experience with Piezo on a 1200 was that I was always getting 
sub-
> micro banding in the 25 - 50% tones in very smooth sections of the
> prints. These sometimes got bad enough to be micro banding.
> 
> With MIS VM on a 1280 I have fine corduroy banding in the 50%-80%
> tones that can only be seen with magnification.
> >>
> Are you using a Cone Piezography driver on both printers?

Tim,

I am using the Piezo inks and driver with the 1200 and the MIS VM 
with the Epson driver in the 1280.

> 
> I have used Piezography inks with both the Cone Piezography driver 
and
> Epson's driver. With the Cone driver driver it is virtually 
impossible to
> avoid some form of artifact somewhere in the grayscale, usually 
only visible
> in smooth toned areas. It takes several forms including banding and
> patterning. The problem is that the Cone driver requires perfecty 
printhead
> alignment in all axes. Most of us cannot achieve that. I find the 
Epson
> driver more forgiving and therefore prefer it.

That has been my experience also but I have seen other people's Piezo 
prints that were flawless so it is possible. Maybe you just have to 
have one of the better printers or we got some of the bad ones.

Martin