Digital BW, The Print

This question is going to show how little I actually understand 
ColorSync, even after all this time. Maybe Carolyn can set me 
straight.

I just had a new custom profile done with Gen4 and ESFA. This 
is the procedure that I followed before printing all the color chips:

1. Printed Dan Culbertson's BlackRamp to determine best 
MediaType. (I chose "Photo Paper").
2. Set up Photoshop ColorSettings according to ProfileCity's 
instructional PDF.
3. Then, output the chips for profiling, as normal.

But in #2, the ProfileCity part, the PDF instructs you to set your 
RGB Working Space to your monitor profile. In my case, after 
running Optical and calibrating my Pressview, the file is called 
"Monitor RGB - Radius 21SR Profile". You're also to set all of 
your Color Management Policies to "Off".

What is the real-world difference between setting your RGB 
Working Space to your Monitor Profile, rather than, say, 
Adobe98? After I think about it for a while, I'd think that I'd 
ALWAYS want my RGB working space as my monitor profile, 
because I work "from my eyes", as in I judge color mostly from 
the monitor representation, rather than by the Info Pallette.

Maybe I'm making this all too hard, but I'll be darn if I can really 
"get" ColorSync. If someone explains it to me, I'll shake my head, 
and say Yes, but I couldnt' really explain it to a third person. 
(Don't tell anybody).

Any simple-English answers very much appreciated.

-Mark Tucker, Dunce

PS. The ProfileCity PDF is here for download:
http://marktucker.com/epson/profilecity.pdf
.

Here is my two cents on color management.

Color management works well IF it is fully implemented in your workflow.
This means calibrated monitors in tightly controlled environments with
custom profiles for each ink paper combination and device. However, once
you miss a step or cannot fully implement a color mangaement system they
cause more problems than they solve and you are better off turning
everything off and going by the numbers.

I have seen too many people chase their tails trying to set up a color
management system only to throw the whole thing out because they would/
could not fully implement it. All it did was cause more problems.

cort anderson

on 11/17/01 11:13 PM, Mark Tucker wrote:

> What is the real-world difference between setting your RGB
> Working Space to your Monitor Profile, rather than, say,
> Adobe98? After I think about it for a while, I'd think that I'd
> ALWAYS want my RGB working space as my monitor profile,
> because I work "from my eyes", as in I judge color mostly from
> the monitor representation, rather than by the Info Pallette.

Mark

Look I don't understand this well enough that anybody should even listen to
me, but that never stopped me from talking...

Without knowing what the Profile City's instructions really are I can't
speak to them. I have a feeling they're telling you to select that as a way
to make sure you don't somehow convert the target's values - not really
sure.

There are a couple of reasons not to use your monitor profile as your
working space. 1) It's not a "well behaved" working space. This reduces
predictability, for instance in the workspace profiles that come with PS,
R=G=B makes a neutral color. Device specific profiles don't guarantee that
to be the case. 2) If you share your files, like with a print shop, they
won't see your file the way you do. Earlier in color management days you
would use your monitor profile, but this worked mostly for closed loop
systems, where for instance a photographer gave a chrome to a printer and
they scanned it, made the match prints, and ran the presses. The monitor and
presses used the match print as their standard for both the monitor and the
press and they never had to worry how the file looked on someone else's
system. Of course if they handed the file to someone, like you, they only
way it's look right was if you also calibrated your monitor to their match
print. Thus only the people who use Chubby Boy Press, like you, would like
your image. ;-)

They idea behind modern color management is that if you calibrate your
monitor to one non device-specific standard, and your printer to a different
non device-specific standard, when both are done properly they will look
like each other, and so long as every body else is calibrated and profiled
to those same standards, and the images are properly tagged, they will see
it as you see it.

Regarding the school of correcting by the numbers, that's all good, but
there's no reason that with properly implemented color management that the
numbers shouldn't make a color onscreen that looks like it does in your
mind's eye. When the two don't relate it's like putting a colored gel over
one eye. Sure you can still make sense out of the world, but it's a
struggle.

Todd

PS, I hope someone more knowledgeable than I answer this for you too!

What little I know about colorsync lies in the area I use it... I've never
built profiles. But from what I gather in the pdf you posted they are trying
to get you to print their untagged rgb target file thru photoshop and the
espon driver without interference.

What I don't understand is why they would want you to set your RGB color
settings to your monitor space. If you are printing their untagged file (I'm
assuming it's untagged as they want this to be totally *un* color managed)
then when you open their target file and send it to the printer it will be
sent without a tag, with no profile. So are they asking you to convert their
target file to your monitor work space when you open it..?  Sorry, I do not
get that.

You would not want your monitor profile to be your work space for the simple
reason that it is too small. If your monitor is calibrated (as your's is)
then any space you choose as your work space (Adobe RGB or Colormatch RGB
which you prefer) will be as close as possible to WYSIWYG thru photoshop's
color management views.  There is no need to use your monitor space as your
work space to achieve this.

The work space is where your file lies, you would not want to squish your
file into a tiny gamut like your monitor space, you want to keep it as large
as possible until print time, then decide what printer is to receive the
file and adjust accordingly. That is why some people prefer to stay in the
lab space as long as possible.

Check out a color reference chart to see the differences in the work
spaces... Read thru Apples excellent colorsync articles, they are very well
written, unlike the crap I'm trying to write above!   ;-)

Todd hit it on the head with the reasoning behind adopting colorsync in the
first place. It makes sense if it is applied correctly... Chubby Boy Press
or Miss Colorado Curves or whatever are fine in a closed environment but
that is not the way we work now.

Carolyn

> 
> This question is going to show how little I actually understand
> ColorSync, even after all this time. Maybe Carolyn can set me
> straight.
> 
> I just had a new custom profile done with Gen4 and ESFA. This
> is the procedure that I followed before printing all the color chips:
> 
> 1. Printed Dan Culbertson's BlackRamp to determine best
> MediaType. (I chose "Photo Paper").
> 2. Set up Photoshop ColorSettings according to ProfileCity's
> instructional PDF.
> 3. Then, output the chips for profiling, as normal.
> 
> But in #2, the ProfileCity part, the PDF instructs you to set your
> RGB Working Space to your monitor profile. In my case, after
> running Optical and calibrating my Pressview, the file is called
> "Monitor RGB - Radius 21SR Profile". You're also to set all of
> your Color Management Policies to "Off".
> 
> What is the real-world difference between setting your RGB
> Working Space to your Monitor Profile, rather than, say,
> Adobe98? After I think about it for a while, I'd think that I'd
> ALWAYS want my RGB working space as my monitor profile,
> because I work "from my eyes", as in I judge color mostly from
> the monitor representation, rather than by the Info Pallette.
> 
> Maybe I'm making this all too hard, but I'll be darn if I can really
> "get" ColorSync. If someone explains it to me, I'll shake my head,
> and say Yes, but I couldnt' really explain it to a third person.
> (Don't tell anybody).
> 
> Any simple-English answers very much appreciated.
> 
> -Mark Tucker, Dunce
> 
> PS. The ProfileCity PDF is here for download:
> http://marktucker.com/epson/profilecity.pdf

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
Read thru Apples excellent colorsync articles, they are very well
> written,


Here is an interesting page, full of Quicktime videos, attempting 
to explain the color management workflow with digital 
photography, (all the way to using an Epson 1270 for output). 
This might be useful for some people  who are curious about 
ColorSync.

http://www.apple.com/creative/resources/color/

.

Mark,  I should have added this link last night...

If you have not already read this it is the place to start...

http://www.apple.com/colorsync/benefits/

This is very good  for those who have not calibrated their monitors...

http://www.apple.com/colorsync/stories/hutcheson/

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn
> <carolyn@u...> wrote:
> Read thru Apples excellent colorsync articles, they are very well
>> written,
> 
> 
> Here is an interesting page, full of Quicktime videos, attempting
> to explain the color management workflow with digital
> photography, (all the way to using an Epson 1270 for output).
> This might be useful for some people  who are curious about
> ColorSync.
> 
> http://www.apple.com/creative/resources/color/
>

Mark Tucker wrote:

> <big Snip>
>
> Maybe I'm making this all too hard, but I'll be darn if I can really
> "get" ColorSync. If someone explains it to me, I'll shake my head,
> and say Yes, but I couldnt' really explain it to a third person.
> (Don't tell anybody).
>
> Any simple-English answers very much appreciated.
>
> -Mark Tucker, Dunce

Sorry if this is a bit late...been too busy to do list stuff for the past few daze, but...

You are not a dunce and not alone!  There was a month long thread on the colorsync list over the summer on
'why doesn't someone write a simple book about color management that everyone can understand'.  The consensus
was that it was a complicated subject.  So complicated that the last few posts were about how (literally) a
rocket scientist, who has sent rockets to mars (who is in the list), cannot get a handle on color
management...It is complicated, and apparently takes years to comprehend.

Flummoxed as almost everyone else...

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I won't say I get it, but Martin Evening's book "Adobe Photoshop for
Photographers" helps a lot!

trish

> From: SKID Photography <skid@...>
> Organization: SKID Photography
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 00:26:04 -0500
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ColorSettings/ColorSync/Embedding?
> 
> Mark Tucker wrote:
> 
>> <big Snip>
>> 
>> Maybe I'm making this all too hard, but I'll be darn if I can really
>> "get" ColorSync. If someone explains it to me, I'll shake my head,
>> and say Yes, but I couldnt' really explain it to a third person.
>> (Don't tell anybody).
>> 
>> Any simple-English answers very much appreciated.
>> 
>> -Mark Tucker, Dunce
> 
> Sorry if this is a bit late...been too busy to do list stuff for the past few
> daze, but...
> 
> You are not a dunce and not alone!  There was a month long thread on the
> colorsync list over the summer on
> 'why doesn't someone write a simple book about color management that everyone
> can understand'.  The consensus
> was that it was a complicated subject.  So complicated that the last few posts
> were about how (literally) a
> rocket scientist, who has sent rockets to mars (who is in the list), cannot
> get a handle on color
> management...It is complicated, and apparently takes years to comprehend.
> 
> Flummoxed as almost everyone else...
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
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