Digital BW, The Print

Why does a system need to apply glop in registration over specific
tones/colors/whites? 

...why not apply it over the entire rectangle, like spot gloss in
lithography?  

If that would work it'd be much more elegant (scientific elegance =
simple, reliable, effective).

Why can't glop be put in a spray can...wouldn't it be better than the
various clear urethanes (which don't adequately deal with bronzing)?  

Glop, applied like a pigment or ink, sounds like a very temporary
solution, even assuming it proves to be workable (like "open loop
systems" and "profiles" and dye transfer and daguerrotype).

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" <westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> 
> Why does a system need to apply glop in registration over specific
> tones/colors/whites? 

Because it only needs to be in places with no ink or little ink to even out the gloss differential.
 
> ...why not apply it over the entire rectangle, like spot gloss in
> lithography?  

Because it woudl increase the glop utilization enormously, running printing costs way up.

And because it would increase the ink load (or at least the "wet load") on the paper, increasing rippling and warping, and increasing drying times.
 
> If that would work it'd be much more elegant (scientific elegance =
> simple, reliable, effective).

It is more elegant, in every sense you have mentioned, to apply it only where it is needed.

> Why can't glop be put in a spray can...wouldn't it be better than the
> various clear urethanes (which don't adequately deal with bronzing)?  

They do, if you use enough. And that is because they have to completly overcome the gloss differential. Glop, applied only where needed, doesn't overcome anything, it just equalizes.

The spray varnishes protect the pritn from UV, gas, and abrasion.
 
> Glop, applied like a pigment or ink, sounds like a very temporary
> solution, even assuming it proves to be workable (like "open loop
> systems" and "profiles" and dye transfer and daguerrotype).

Are you trolling? Properly designed open loop systems are still used, because of speed and simplicity. Profiles are the only way to print accurate colors.

Ciao!

Joe

A few comments on "glop".

First of all I have had significantly better results using glop as a full
overcoat rather than "in the mix".  I do not share Carl's success with a 10%
flat application "in the mix".  I also tried a whole range of toner curves
with higher amounts of glop in the highlights etc (I believe Paul is using
this approach).  I also found that glop in the mix reduced dMax while an
overcoat of a fully dried print boosted dMax.

I am very suspect of the notion that glop works when it simply goes where no
other ink is.  In a quad system, even highlights have quite healthy levels
of ink application because of the use of light inks.  Yet severe bronzing
persists.  

In my experience an overcoat of glop at 50% (50% jet strength in QTR) is
required to remove bronzing.  45% doesn't cut it under halogen lighting for
example.  

QTR will apply a flat glop curve to the entire page unless the .quad file is
edited to place a 0 value in the first, paper white, value in the lookup
table. This is easily done but it is almost impossible for the printer (even
using the same driver) to perfectly align the same page twice.  Hence I coat
the page. There are no issues with overloading the paper as I let the print
dry overnight before coating it.

We battle two issues.  Bronzing which affects the highlights and reflectance
differentials which, in my view, affects predominantly the shadows -
especially pure black.  An overcoat addresses the latter much better.

I think we are all guessing as to what bronzing actually is - we know the
symptoms but what is it that we are actually seeing?  Why does it occur?
There is no bronzing on a blank sheet of paper and so the gaps of white
where there isn't any ink are not the issue.

The way I think of glop, at this stage, is that it is a protective coating
that somehow helps the bronzing and reflectance problem.  There are in my
opinion massive advantages to it being applied by a printer rather than as a
spray: precise application rate, very fine spray (1440dpi), no mess, no
fumes etc etc.  The current formulation of glop is not perfect.  In the
bottle it is urine in colour and does affect paper white to a certain
degree.  I would like to think though that in the advent of glop we have the
chance to find a good "coating substance" to enhance and protect prints via
printer application.

I suspect MIS created the current version of glop by, in essence, trying to
mimic the Epson product.  They are not happy with the current product (nor
their R800 inks) and should have a new version out very shortly.
Personally, I would like their chemist to think about the issues involved
(bronzing and reflectance) and the "advent" of printer application, and
think up a substance that does the job and can be applied by a printer -
regardless of whether it is glop or not.

Epson's design team are constrained by many factors.  The average guy who
buys a photo printer like the R800 (and it would seem they feel the same
about the R1800 as they are positioning it below the 2200) needs an
out-of-the-box one-pass solution.  They aren't going to do a two pass
process.  Bronzing is a lot less noticeable in colour images - I found a 15%
coating would hide the issue unless the colour image had substantial areas
of B&W.  Arguably we should not be so constrained.  We invest time in
exploring other inks, papers, calibration, coatings etc.

Steve

> From: koloshor <wiz@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 03:18:36 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: glop concept goofy, temporary?
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon"
> <westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
>> 
>> Why does a system need to apply glop in registration over specific
>> tones/colors/whites?
> 
> Because it only needs to be in places with no ink or little ink to even out
> the gloss differential.
>  
>> ...why not apply it over the entire rectangle, like spot gloss in
>> lithography?  
> 
> Because it woudl increase the glop utilization enormously, running printing
> costs way up.
> 
> And because it would increase the ink load (or at least the "wet load") on the
> paper, increasing rippling and warping, and increasing drying times.
>  
>> If that would work it'd be much more elegant (scientific elegance =
>> simple, reliable, effective).
> 
> It is more elegant, in every sense you have mentioned, to apply it only where
> it is needed.
> 
>> Why can't glop be put in a spray can...wouldn't it be better than the
>> various clear urethanes (which don't adequately deal with bronzing)?
> 
> They do, if you use enough. And that is because they have to completly
> overcome the gloss differential. Glop, applied only where needed, doesn't
> overcome anything, it just equalizes.
> 
> The spray varnishes protect the pritn from UV, gas, and abrasion.
>  
>> Glop, applied like a pigment or ink, sounds like a very temporary
>> solution, even assuming it proves to be workable (like "open loop
>> systems" and "profiles" and dye transfer and daguerrotype).
> 
> Are you trolling? Properly designed open loop systems are still used, because
> of speed and simplicity. Profiles are the only way to print accurate colors.
> 
> Ciao!
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
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>

Steve Kale wrote:

>A few comments on "glop".
>  
>
With your comments and the messages I have collected on coatings, 
varnishes and glop since May 2003 on two lists I also think that this 
isn't a final answer either.
A general coating after printing that protects, takes bronzing and 
differential gloss away and can be applied with a printer on B&W + color 
prints, matte and gloss. An older printer can take care of that, amount 
of coating can be controlled by QTR and the number of heads used, lower 
DPI selected for speed. Waterclear base like Hydrocote but printer 
friendly.
So I will not add glop to the quad 9000 inkset.

Ernst

Well I would say that it is quite a good interim solution!  I have
previously given up on RC papers because of these issues.  Now I haven't
even bothered to re-profile my printer for matte paper.  Glop works for now
- if a better coating comes along then it is probably just a mater of
swapping out the cart, flushing and relinearizing.  I find the application
of a coating via a printer gets rid of most of the headaches I saw in other
solutions (sprays, mayer rods etc).  While I suspect glop is not as good a
coating in some respects as a varnish, net net I find the current setup
workable with little fuss.  RC is back in play...

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:39:47 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: glop concept goofy, temporary?
> 
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
> 
>> A few comments on "glop".
>>  
>> 
> With your comments and the messages I have collected on coatings,
> varnishes and glop since May 2003 on two lists I also think that this
> isn't a final answer either.
> A general coating after printing that protects, takes bronzing and
> differential gloss away and can be applied with a printer on B&W + color
> prints, matte and gloss. An older printer can take care of that, amount
> of coating can be controlled by QTR and the number of heads used, lower
> DPI selected for speed. Waterclear base like Hydrocote but printer
> friendly.
> So I will not add glop to the quad 9000 inkset.
> 
> Ernst
>

Bronzing is "dichroic" ...part of the pigment sits on the surface and
its nature is to reflect light differently from different angles. You
can see this in some photographic filters, or in the filters of
"dichroic" enlarging heads.

Urethane spraying is too much grief... the printer is obviously the
best tool for application. 

Some printers, maybe 1280s, may not register a second pass
precisely... but my 2200 and another that was mentioned earlier on a
"two pass" thread do register well within 1mm in a second pass with no
special registration efforts. 

WITH a pair of simple registration devices (3" plastic blocks) I've
read that tone-separation-precision (ie like a fine printing press) is
easy with 9600. Therefore a second pass applying Glop (or
whatever)should likely work, especially if the Glop rectangle exceeds
the size of the photo rectangle by a couple of percent. 

Yes, this is too hard for snapshooters (different printer ideally),
but I'm only interested in "custom printing" quality. 

> 
> I think we are all guessing as to what bronzing actually is -  what
is it that we are actually seeing?   

We're seeing the "dichroic" nature of the pigment...I think your
comment about "urine color" of Glop explains the killing of narrow
wavelengths.

What is it that you guys don't like about glop applied during the first 
pass like Paul's new experimental UT2/glop carts? Looks pretty darn 
good to me. The only thing I am going to change is to max the the 
highlights out at some point lower that 255. Right  now spots that have 
totally blown highlights get no ink or glop, and you can see that a 
tiny bit. Other than that, it is very close to as good as it could get. 
Plus it's super easy...DM

If it is 1mm out you notice it and it soon gets under your skin.  The 102%
rectangle also leaves a slight edge.  In the end I decided to take all the
guess work out and coat the page.  You'll waste more paper and ink having
something that doesn't align than you will placing the glop until it is
under the mat.

> From: Djon <westsidemaurice@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:20:10 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: glop concept goofy, temporary?
> 
> 
> 
> Bronzing is "dichroic" ...part of the pigment sits on the surface and
> its nature is to reflect light differently from different angles. You
> can see this in some photographic filters, or in the filters of
> "dichroic" enlarging heads.
> 
> Urethane spraying is too much grief... the printer is obviously the
> best tool for application.
> 
> Some printers, maybe 1280s, may not register a second pass
> precisely... but my 2200 and another that was mentioned earlier on a
> "two pass" thread do register well within 1mm in a second pass with no
> special registration efforts.
> 
> WITH a pair of simple registration devices (3" plastic blocks) I've
> read that tone-separation-precision (ie like a fine printing press) is
> easy with 9600. Therefore a second pass applying Glop (or
> whatever)should likely work, especially if the Glop rectangle exceeds
> the size of the photo rectangle by a couple of percent.
> 
> Yes, this is too hard for snapshooters (different printer ideally),
> but I'm only interested in "custom printing" quality.
> 
>> 
>> I think we are all guessing as to what bronzing actually is -  what
> is it that we are actually seeing?
> 
> We're seeing the "dichroic" nature of the pigment...I think your
> comment about "urine color" of Glop explains the killing of narrow
> wavelengths.
> 
>

Too much ink hitting the page at printing, dMax reduction, and I still had
reflectance differential.  I believe Paul's curves lay down over 60% glop in
the L=65 to 85ish range and little if any at 0.  The bottom line is after a
lot of messing around I found the coating approach to be most effective.  It
also clears the way for replacing glop with some, as yet unavailable, more
effective product.


> From: Douglas Meeuwsen <lipshurt@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:30:36 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: glop concept goofy, temporary?
> 
> 
> What is it that you guys don't like about glop applied during the first
> pass like Paul's new experimental UT2/glop carts? Looks pretty darn
> good to me. The only thing I am going to change is to max the the
> highlights out at some point lower that 255. Right  now spots that have
> totally blown highlights get no ink or glop, and you can see that a
> tiny bit. 

You could simply adjust his curve so that it starts at (0,10) instead of
(0,0), no?

> Other than that, it is very close to as good as it could get.
> Plus it's super easy...DM
>

Doug,

On most of the curves I now have some glop on the paper white, for example
(255, 242).  The glop has some density, so I would not go much below about
230.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

_______________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Meeuwsen [mailto:lipshurt@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 8:31 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: glop concept goofy, temporary?


What is it that you guys don't like about glop applied during the first 
pass like Paul's new experimental UT2/glop carts? Looks pretty darn 
good to me. The only thing I am going to change is to max the the 
highlights out at some point lower that 255. Right  now spots that have 
totally blown highlights get no ink or glop, and you can see that a 
tiny bit. Other than that, it is very close to as good as it could get. 
Plus it's super easy...DM




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Yahoo! Groups Links

thanks Paul...I have the day off today, so will try to get it all 
dialed in....
One more question:
I definitley like the result with kirkland better than premium 
semigloss, even though the semi is very good. Is there a paper that 
comes in 13x19 that is as good as the kirkland, and you have curves for 
it? I know you like semi-matte, but so far I think it is only a roll 
paper. Semi-gloss would work fine, just wondering if lets say, premium 
luster or premium gloss, or another paper is better than premium semi. 
The costco has more pop when you first glance at it. Then when you look 
closely the semi-gloss seems to be exactly the same in all the areas 
from dark to light. Then when you turn your eyes away and back again, 
the kirkland hits you better. Very strange actually. Might just be the 
surface I guess. Thanks again for the great help...DM
On Feb 23, 2005, at 9:20 AM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Doug,
>
>  On most of the curves I now have some glop on the paper white, for 
> example
>  (255, 242).� The glop has some density, so I would not go much below 
> about
>  230.
>
>  Paul
>  www.PaulRoark.com
>
>  _______________________________
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Douglas Meeuwsen [mailto:lipshurt@...]
>  Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 8:31 AM
>  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: glop concept goofy, temporary?
>
>
>  What is it that you guys don't like about glop applied during the 
> first
>  pass like Paul's new experimental UT2/glop carts? Looks pretty darn
>  good to me. The only thing I am going to change is to max the the
>  highlights out at some point lower that 255. Right� now spots that 
> have
>  totally blown highlights get no ink or glop, and you can see that a
>  tiny bit. Other than that, it is very close to as good as it could 
> get.
>  Plus it's super easy...DM
>
>
>
>
>  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as
>  they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to
>  unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this 
> same
>  page.
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Doug,

>I definitely like the result with kirkland better than premium 
>semigloss, even though the semi is very good. Is there a paper that 
>comes in 13x19 that is as good as the kirkland, and you have curves for 
>it?

Unfortunately, none is as good as Kirkland, at least that I've found.

>I know you like semi-matte, but so far I think it is only a roll 
>paper. 

Epson will soon be selling PSM in 17 x 22 sizes, rumor has it.  I have some
(beta) and cut it down to letter size.

http://www.eximvaios.com/catalog/default.php cuts some papers down to 13"
rolls.  I'm not sure if they'll do that for PSM.  It might be worth
contacting them.

>Semi-gloss would work fine, just wondering if lets say, premium 
>luster or premium gloss, or another paper is better than premium semi. 

No, luster and gloss have high bronzing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

___________________________



On Feb 23, 2005, at 9:20 AM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Doug,
>
>  On most of the curves I now have some glop on the paper white, for 
> example
>  (255, 242).  The glop has some density, so I would not go much below 
> about
>  230.
>
>  Paul
>  www.PaulRoark.com
>
>  _______________________________
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Douglas Meeuwsen [mailto:lipshurt@...]
>  Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 8:31 AM
>  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: glop concept goofy, temporary?
>
>
>  What is it that you guys don't like about glop applied during the 
> first
>  pass like Paul's new experimental UT2/glop carts? Looks pretty darn
>  good to me. The only thing I am going to change is to max the the
>  highlights out at some point lower that 255. Right  now spots that 
> have
>  totally blown highlights get no ink or glop, and you can see that a
>  tiny bit. Other than that, it is very close to as good as it could 
> get.
>  Plus it's super easy...DM
>
>
>
>
>  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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>Too much ink hitting the page at printing,

2880 takes care of the problem.  A RIP will also help -- after I've set up
the Epson driver curves for the 2200.

> dMax reduction,

There's no change to the dmax because no glop is put there.

I think most users do not want to mess with a second pass.  So, as a
practical matte, this gets the benefits of glop to more people.

Then again, I will still be spraying my best ones with toxic, solvent-based
PremierArt Print Shield.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

__________________________




> From: Douglas Meeuwsen <lipshurt@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:30:36 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: glop concept goofy, temporary?
> 
> 
> What is it that you guys don't like about glop applied during the first
> pass like Paul's new experimental UT2/glop carts? Looks pretty darn
> good to me. The only thing I am going to change is to max the the
> highlights out at some point lower that 255. Right  now spots that have
> totally blown highlights get no ink or glop, and you can see that a
> tiny bit. 

You could simply adjust his curve so that it starts at (0,10) instead of
(0,0), no?


> Other than that, it is very close to as good as it could get.
> Plus it's super easy...DM
> 





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Can you try a basic test one day?  Print a black square and spray it in
normal fashion.  I can not get Lyson Print Guard to settle invisibly on
black.

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>

> Then again, I will still be spraying my best ones with toxic, solvent-based
> PremierArt Print Shield.
>

Steve,

> I am very suspect of the notion that glop works when it simply goes where 
> no
> other ink is.

That is how Epson use their Gloss Optimizer, as stated by Epson, and 
demonstrable by anyone with an R800.

It may not work with third-party inks and glops, such as you are using.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>

Hmmm I would like to know how an R800 owner would test it indisputably.  The
point is we are all hypothesizing - I don't think anyone here has the
knowledge.  We are reading marketing material, looking at symptoms and
hypothesizing.

One thing has been established, though, and that is that using the printer
to deposit a material on the print is a hell of a lot easier than spraying.
The question for the chemists out there is what substances that cure the
problems can be laid down by a printer.  Glop is the first attempt.

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
 
> demonstrable by anyone with an R800.
> 
>

>I would like to know how an R800 owner would test it indisputably.  ...

Put a color/gray ink in the glop position and clear flushing fluid in the
others.  Then print a 21-step test strip.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Steve,

I can get smooth 100% blacks with PremierArt Print Shield.  Maybe what Lyson
sells over there isn't what they sell here.  Many aerosol sprays I've tried
have nozzles that give me the same problems you're describing.  The quality
of the nozzle is definitely one of the variables.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

_____________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 10:02 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: glop concept goofy, temporary?


Can you try a basic test one day?  Print a black square and spray it in
normal fashion.  I can not get Lyson Print Guard to settle invisibly on
black.


> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>

> Then again, I will still be spraying my best ones with toxic,
solvent-based
> PremierArt Print Shield.
> 





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I suspect that is it....else I can't operate an aerosol can properly... ;-)

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:31:20 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: glop concept goofy, temporary?
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> I can get smooth 100% blacks with PremierArt Print Shield.  Maybe what Lyson
> sells over there isn't what they sell here.  Many aerosol sprays I've tried
> have nozzles that give me the same problems you're describing.  The quality
> of the nozzle is definitely one of the variables.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Yes that would work but not so obvious to any R800 owner though.  Bob, how
about running us a little test?

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:27:44 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: glop concept goofy, temporary?
> 
> 
> 
>> I would like to know how an R800 owner would test it indisputably.  ...
> 
> Put a color/gray ink in the glop position and clear flushing fluid in the
> others.  Then print a 21-step test strip.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Steve,

> Hmmm I would like to know how an R800 owner would test it indisputably. 
> The
> point is we are all hypothesizing - I don't think anyone here has the
> knowledge.  We are reading marketing material, looking at symptoms and
> hypothesizing.

And then testing!

1    The Epson GLOP is only used on premium glossy & premium lustre papers 
on the R800; the option is grayed out on matte papers.

2    When you use premium glossy or lustre, the GLOP option ungrays itself 
and presents two options, Auto - in which the GLOP is used only in the image 
area, and Full - the GLOP is used in the whole printable paper area.

3    You can also untick GLOP, when using Premium glossy or lustre paper, 
and then the printer prints just as with matte papers - no GLOP. The 
downside is that you now see the white areas of the print as less glossy 
than the inked areas.

4    The bably Epson Picturemate has the same inks as the R800, minus the 
GLOP cart and the matte black cart. The images from it on premium glossy are 
the same as those from the R800 with the GLOP turned off - the white areas 
are less glossy.

5    If the GLOP cart were used on all the image, then we would be swapping 
out used GLOP carts all the time. I've changed several ink carts, but am 
still on the first GLOP cart.

That seems pretty conclusive to me, but I'm open to other interpretations.

Epson seem to have done something to the inks of the R800 and Picturemate; 
they are 'HiGloss' inks on their own, with only a trace of the 'dichroism', 
'bronzing', 'differential gloss' that we get with the 2100/2200 and the 
ordinary Ultrachromes on premium glossy.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
 
> And then testing!
> 
> 1    The Epson GLOP is only used on premium glossy & premium lustre papers
> on the R800; the option is grayed out on matte papers.
> 
> 2    When you use premium glossy or lustre, the GLOP option ungrays itself
> and presents two options, Auto - in which the GLOP is used only in the image
> area, and Full - the GLOP is used in the whole printable paper area.
> 
> 3    You can also untick GLOP, when using Premium glossy or lustre paper,
> and then the printer prints just as with matte papers - no GLOP. The
> downside is that you now see the white areas of the print as less glossy
> than the inked areas.
> 
> 4    The bably Epson Picturemate has the same inks as the R800, minus the
> GLOP cart and the matte black cart. The images from it on premium glossy are
> the same as those from the R800 with the GLOP turned off - the white areas
> are less glossy.
> 
> 5    If the GLOP cart were used on all the image, then we would be swapping
> out used GLOP carts all the time. I've changed several ink carts, but am
> still on the first GLOP cart.
> 
> That seems pretty conclusive to me, but I'm open to other interpretations.

My point is that we don't know how much glop is laid down for various ink
densities.  Nothing in the above answers this question.


> 
> Epson seem to have done something to the inks of the R800 and Picturemate;
> they are 'HiGloss' inks on their own, with only a trace of the 'dichroism',
> 'bronzing', 'differential gloss' that we get with the 2100/2200 and the
> ordinary Ultrachromes on premium glossy.
> 


Interesting that they don't release a HiGloss set for the 21/2200 if it is
considered a significant advancement - ex glop.  Even the R1800 is not
pitched as a successor to the 2100.

What do people use to sign RC prints? My HB pencil doesn't work so well
;-)

While not specific to RC prints, all prints of mine get signed with
black or silver fine point sharpee indicating the number in edition as
well as my sig.

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:12:44 +0000, Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:
> 
> What do people use to sign RC prints? My HB pencil doesn't work so well
> ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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I just print a scan of my signature below the lower right margin of the 
image, allowing a 1/2 inch margin around the print.  The signature scan 
can be applied as a layer.

Carl

On Feb 23, 2005, at 2:12 PM, Steve Kale wrote:

>
>
> What do people use to sign RC prints? My HB pencil doesn't work so well
> ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
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> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
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> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
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>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

In the U.S. there is a "Ultra Fine Point" "Sharpie" "Permanent Marker" that
will write on glossy paper. It's a felt-tip type pen.  While it works, I
doubt its fade resistance.

I've been signing them on the back.  I'm tempted to put a signature in the
file also as opposed to anything else on the front of the print.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

___________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 11:13 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Signing RC prints



What do people use to sign RC prints? My HB pencil doesn't work so well
;-)






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MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

In the file also?  You give a buyer a softcopy?

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:40:50 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Signing RC prints
> 
> 
> In the U.S. there is a "Ultra Fine Point" "Sharpie" "Permanent Marker" that
> will write on glossy paper. It's a felt-tip type pen.  While it works, I
> doubt its fade resistance.
> 
> I've been signing them on the back.  I'm tempted to put a signature in the
> file also as opposed to anything else on the front of the print.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Steve; 

The best thing I've found so far is a graphic arts Rapidograph ink 
pen, filled with a slightly diluted LC ink, either warm or neutral. 
In the US they are still available in art supply stores. The glop 
coating makes it a bit tougher to get a smooth stroke, so its better 
in between, if you can remember to do so.

Steve Karafyllakis


> 
> What do people use to sign RC prints? My HB pencil doesn't work so 
well
> ;-)

--- 
> The question for the chemists out there is what substances that 
cure the
> problems can be laid down by a printer.  Glop is the first attempt.
> 
Well, to be accurate, glop is the first attempt we've been able to 
get our hands on. MIS tried this approach a couple years back, and 
gave up on it, never released whatever they were using. I think they 
are a bit surprised at this point that we're making it work.

Steve Karafyllakis

At 08:26 AM Thursday 2/24/2005, you wrote:
>I just print a scan of my signature below the lower right margin of the 
>image, allowing a 1/2 inch margin around the print.  The signature scan 
>can be applied as a layer.

I use a silver pen which is very good, because it sticks to the paper (is absorbed by swellable coatings) and is not too obtrusive to the eye.

Richard

--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com

   "Reason can answer questions, but imagination has to ask them."
   --Ralph W Gerard

Hello Steve:  You could use a traditional approach: mount the image, 
hinge the window to that mounted and matted image with archival tape,
and sign that front mat.  Peter G.

On Feb 23, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Steve Kale wrote:

>
>
> What do people use to sign RC prints? My HB pencil doesn't work so well
> ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ 
> AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Actually Carl's scan method works well.  And if you are like me and worry
you will spoil a final print with a screwy signature, it is riskless!

> From: Steven Karafyllakis <steve@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:02:55 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Signing RC prints
> 
> 
> 
> Steve; 
> 
> The best thing I've found so far is a graphic arts Rapidograph ink
> pen, filled with a slightly diluted LC ink, either warm or neutral.
> In the US they are still available in art supply stores. The glop
> coating makes it a bit tougher to get a smooth stroke, so its better
> in between, if you can remember to do so.
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis

Weir!...I set the max highlight level at 250 instead of 255, and the 
print came out a wet sloppy mess that is is stil soupy wet 3 hours 
later!
What could that be?...DM

Printed on the wrong side of costco paper! Never did that 
before.......DM
On Feb 23, 2005, at 12:52 PM, Douglas Meeuwsen wrote:

>
>  Weir!...I set the max highlight level at 250 instead of 255, and the
>  print came out a wet sloppy mess that is is stil soupy wet 3 hours
>  later!
>  What could that be?...DM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yup, sounds like a good one-if you don't bother with titles. If you 
do, will you build a library of title scans too?

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Actually Carl's scan method works well.  And if you are like me 
and worry
> you will spoil a final print with a screwy signature, it is 
riskless!
> 
> 
> 
> > From: Steven Karafyllakis <steve@s...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:02:55 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Signing RC prints
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Steve; 
> > 
> > The best thing I've found so far is a graphic arts Rapidograph 
ink
> > pen, filled with a slightly diluted LC ink, either warm or 
neutral.
> > In the US they are still available in art supply stores. The glop
> > coating makes it a bit tougher to get a smooth stroke, so its 
better

> > in between, if you can remember to do so.
> > 
> > Steve Karafyllakis

I gave up on titles because my hand writing is so appalling they always
looked stupid.  

> From: Steven Karafyllakis <steve@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:05:13 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Signing RC prints
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, sounds like a good one-if you don't bother with titles. If you
> do, will you build a library of title scans too?
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis

Steve & Paul,

>> Put a color/gray ink in the glop position and clear flushing fluid in the
>> others.  Then print a 21-step test strip.

> Yes that would work but not so obvious to any R800 owner though.  Bob, how
> about running us a little test?


I'll leave that to Paul. I want to sell my R800 as soon as the R1800 comes 
out, so no non-Epson stuff in it! I only do that with my old 1270 and 90.

But I am doing a lot more tests. I've been printing loads of grayscales, 
comparing the 2100 (with and without IP) and the R800, and I'm just 
repeating some of these with and without GLOP turned on. From preliminary 
tests, I might just have to eat some of my words!

The obvious difference between GLOP on and off is that with it on there is a 
255/255/255 patch at the end of the grayscale, whereas with it off there 
isn't. It is this that stands out in prints.

But there are differences in the grayscale down to about 175/175/175, and 
I'm not sure whether this is due to lack of glop in these areas, or whether 
perhaps turning glop off has upset the driver and changed the color balance 
slightly. So, I'll do some color scales and see what happens there.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>

But, a Sharpie will "bleed" after a few years, leaving a brownish stain as
it goes.

Seth 

==-----Original Message-----
==From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] 
==Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 2:41 PM
==To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
==Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Signing RC prints
==
==
==In the U.S. there is a "Ultra Fine Point" "Sharpie" 
=="Permanent Marker" that will write on glossy paper. It's a 
==felt-tip type pen.  While it works, I doubt its fade resistance.
==
==I've been signing them on the back.  I'm tempted to put a 
==signature in the file also as opposed to anything else on the 
==front of the print.
==
==Paul
==www.PaulRoark.com 
==
==___________________________
==
==-----Original Message-----
==From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
==Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 11:13 AM
==To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
==Subject: [Digital BW] Signing RC prints
==
==
==
==What do people use to sign RC prints? My HB pencil doesn't 
==work so well
==;-)
==
==
==
==
==
==
==Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
==resources as
==they are often being updated.
==
==http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
==
==If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
==you wish to
==unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
==visiting this same
==page.
==
==Please follow these basic guidelines:
==- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
==messages to keep
==them short.
==- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
==or flames.
==Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
==membership without notice.
==- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
==digital B&W
==printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
==removed from
==the membership.
==- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
==guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
==group Owner and
==Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the 
==Files section:
==http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
==
==BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL 
==BW, THE PRINT
==YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
==MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT 
==BE LIABLE TO YOU
==FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL 
==OR EXEMPLARY
==DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
==GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  
==OWNER AND
==MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN 
==ADVISED OF THE
==POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR 
==THE INABILITY
==TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) 
==UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
==ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
==CONDUCT OF ANY
==THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
==ANY OTHER
==MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
== 
==Yahoo! Groups Links
==
==
==
== 
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
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==resources as they are often being updated.
==
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==
==If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
==you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership 
==preferences by visiting this same page.
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==Please follow these basic guidelines:
==- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
==messages to keep them short.
==- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
==or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be 
==removed from the membership without notice.
==- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
==digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic 
==posts may be removed from the membership.
==- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
==rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and 
==decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See Group 
==Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
==http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
==
==BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL 
==BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE 
==THAT THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
==YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, 
==INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
==DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
==PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN 
==IF THE  OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
==YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
==DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
==THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
==ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) 
==STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
==THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO 
==THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
== 
==Yahoo! Groups Links
==
==
==
== 
==
==
==
==

Is there a good URL for buying these Rapidograph ink pens, or
recommendations on the type or specs of what is working well?  It sounds
like a good way to go.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
_________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Karafyllakis [mailto:steve@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:03 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Signing RC prints



Steve; 

The best thing I've found so far is a graphic arts Rapidograph ink 
pen, filled with a slightly diluted LC ink, either warm or neutral. 
In the US they are still available in art supply stores. The glop 
coating makes it a bit tougher to get a smooth stroke, so its better 
in between, if you can remember to do so.

Steve Karafyllakis


> 
> What do people use to sign RC prints? My HB pencil doesn't work so 
well
> ;-)






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

I use a combination of methods: I hand sign and date in pencil on the
matte and I print a copyright notice, title, an "archival digital
print" notice and a scanned signature below the printed image area, so
it is covered by my matte, but is part of the print paper. The printed
notice is a separate file copied into each print on a new layer. It
has space for the title of each piece to be inserted (in a slightly
larger font) and, of course, I can always stretch the space if needed
for a lengthy title.

Frank

Frank that sounds interesting.

I would love to get some samples of the copyright and archival digital print
notices people use.  If anyone is prepared to let me take a look please
contact me off list.

> From: njfranknj <kolwicz@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:18:36 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Signing RC prints
> 
> 
> 
> I use a combination of methods: I hand sign and date in pencil on the
> matte and I print a copyright notice, title, an "archival digital
> print" notice and a scanned signature below the printed image area, so
> it is covered by my matte, but is part of the print paper. The printed
> notice is a separate file copied into each print on a new layer. It
> has space for the title of each piece to be inserted (in a slightly
> larger font) and, of course, I can always stretch the space if needed
> for a lengthy title.
> 
> Frank
> 
>

I'd love to see that too, if someone could post it to the files 
section I'd appreciate it very much.

Thanks

Jules

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Frank that sounds interesting.
> 
> I would love to get some samples of the copyright and archival 
digital print
> notices people use.  If anyone is prepared to let me take a look 
please
> contact me off list.
> 
> 
> > From: njfranknj <kolwicz@e...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:18:36 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Signing RC prints
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I use a combination of methods: I hand sign and date in pencil on 
the
> > matte and I print a copyright notice, title, an "archival digital
> > print" notice and a scanned signature below the printed image 
area, so
> > it is covered by my matte, but is part of the print paper. The 
printed
> > notice is a separate file copied into each print on a new layer. 
It
> > has space for the title of each piece to be inserted (in a 
slightly
> > larger font) and, of course, I can always stretch the space if 
needed

> > for a lengthy title.
> > 
> > Frank
> > 
> >

After seeing a friend sign his gorgeous print (that he paid dearly for) with a gold paint 
marker, I could never really take him or his work seriously any longer.

The printed archival statements and copyright info just sound silly, but I can understand 
the rational.  However it seems that this would somehow cheapen or mechanize the fine 
art aspects of the work.  I wonder if we strip down the Mona Lisa we will find an archival 
ranting and copyright.  

The work should always be about the image, not your pretty handwriting.  I only sign 
prints on the reverse, maybe its a marketing mistake - but there have been no complaints 
from galleries or potential buyers.

Don


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> 
wrote:

> 
> What do people use to sign RC prints? My HB pencil doesn't work so well
> ;-)

Hi Steve,

I'm really impressed with some pens I get at Michaels. They're called
ZIG Memory System and they come in a Millennium series of assorted
fine line widths and an Opaque Writer series of soft broad tipped
markers that are acid free, permanent,light fast and archaival. I use
a black one for light prints or mats and a silver one for dark prints
or mats. Try 'em, you'll like 'em.

Ron Reimer

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:

> 
> What do people use to sign RC prints? My HB pencil doesn't work so well
> ;-)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> 
> 
[Bob Frost's five good glop observations snipped]

> My point is that we don't know how much glop is laid down for various ink
> densities.  Nothing in the above answers this question.

Load the r800 drivers and print to file with an image of a step wedge. Then take the ESC2P codes apart. There's even a decoder for them floating around the net.

Then you cna see the exact glop quantities used at different densities.
 
> > Epson seem to have done something to the inks of the R800 and Picturemate;
> > they are 'HiGloss' inks on their own, with only a trace of the 'dichroism',
> > 'bronzing', 'differential gloss' that we get with the 2100/2200 and the
> > ordinary Ultrachromes on premium glossy.
> > 
> 
> 
> Interesting that they don't release a HiGloss set for the 21/2200 if it is
> considered a significant advancement - ex glop.  Even the R1800 is not
> pitched as a successor to the 2100.

That would mean two drivers (one for each inkset) supporting different base ink quantites and color matricies. And two sets of profiles. Remember, Epson didn't even release the Gray Balancer in the US because they thought that would be a tech support nightmare. Try managing two sets of ink on one printer.

Not to mention the shelf space for 16 different Epson 2200 carts...

Opps . . . I hope that you didn't offend anyone who signs images with 
gold paint ;-).  Peter G.

On Feb 23, 2005, at 6:02 PM, hill14701 wrote:

>
> . . . After seeing a friend sign his gorgeous print (that he paid 
> dearly for) with a gold paint
> marker, I could never really take him or his work seriously any longer.
>

Paul Roark wrote:

>Is there a good URL for buying these Rapidograph ink pens, or
>recommendations on the type or specs of what is working well?  It sounds
>like a good way to go.
>
>Paul
>www.PaulRoark.com 
>  
>
The other option is the Marsmatic700 made by Staedtler (Mars), It is 
also refillable. There's a cheaper package of 4 pens each with a 
different line width on the market. I use the 0.25 ISO for retouch with 
inkjet inks.

Ernst

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>

> The obvious difference between GLOP on and off is that with it on there is a
> 255/255/255 patch at the end of the grayscale, whereas with it off there
> isn't. 

Sorry, I am not sure I understand what you mean.

>It is this that stands out in prints.
> 
> But there are differences in the grayscale down to about 175/175/175, and
> I'm not sure whether this is due to lack of glop in these areas, or whether
> perhaps turning glop off has upset the driver and changed the color balance
> slightly. So, I'll do some color scales and see what happens there.
>

Paul-

Usually Michael's carries them.  On line, I'd try www.dickblick.com.  They
generally have all the stuff.

GOOD prices on mat cutters, board and frames sometimes.  Then catch the free
shipping days and you're golden.

Seth 

==-----Original Message-----
==From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] 
==
==Is there a good URL for buying these Rapidograph ink pens, or 
==recommendations on the type or specs of what is working well? 
== It sounds like a good way to go.
==
==Paul
==www.PaulRoark.com
==_________________________________________

I have a couple of ways of doing things.

First, since I don't consider glossy an exhibition medium, what to use is
not an issue.  I use gel pens or a soft pencil, depending on the surface.
However, I like the idea of using the Rapidograph filled with ink.  Long
time ago I used india ink but it became a hassle.

I guess this is a holdover from silver days, but I leave room.
Five-by-seven goes in the middle of an 8x10 sheet; eight-by-ten goes either
in the middle of 11x14 or 8-1/2x11.  If it's a full 8x10 that will be custom
matted, it goes in 11x14, signature and title below it.  If it's something
that is thrown out there that may be stuck in an off-the-shelf mat, the
image is 7-1/2x9-1/2 --the size of the opening in those mats.

I don't sign everything.  I figure it's worth more.  HOWEVER, I have had
people buy something then ask if I'd sign it.  I think they like that little
thrill.

If I frame it or mat it, it says "Copyright, do not reproduce" on the back.
Anything I mat also has a piece of mat board hinged to the front mat.  If I
frame it, the next layer back is waxed paper then foam core.  The foam core
is marked.

Authenticating??  Naw. I am not Ansel Adams; nor am I dead yet.  So, I don't
have a foundation to tell people my prints are really from the original
negs, etc.  I DO put a small sheet on the back explaining whether:

1.  The that the mat board and backing board are acid free or that they are
pH neutral (usually the later).  And, the linen hinge with removeable
adhesive.
2.  There is a layer of wax paper and why (in case they start
disassembling).
3.  Whether or not the foam core is "archival quality."
4.  The reason for metal frames and what they face going to wood or
composite.
5.  The reason I do NOT put brown dust covers OR why there is white paper
(butcher paper w/o a "sweet" side.

It's all short and simple and small.

If you sign the front that's all the copyright notice you need.

I am also toying with the idea on some of the LE Seri/Lithographs I have.
They seem to always have their signature in the image.  Truth is it's from
them signing the original painting, so I am not sure of the validity in a
photograph.  Then the Seri/Litho is pencil signed, numbered in the white
border, which authenticates the print edition by the artist.

I have put out info sheets that explain what "Archival" really is and
exhibiting problems.  People read those and take them home.

Seth

I is very important to use an ink that will not fade. Most of these pens that you can pick up 
in office supply stored will fade and shift color. I friend of mine used a lot of text on all his 
type c prints, in a narritive form. After a few years the text on his first set of prints faded 
to the point of not being able to see them at all. How he uses some kind of sharpie that is 
uv protected.

So, just because the ink may adhere and look good initially doesn't mean it will not fade in 
sunlight.

Actually a lot of people use glossy surfaces for exhibition prints and with the new Epson 
inksets such as in the 1800 that trend will become very popular.

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Seth" <seth@m...> wrote:

> I have a couple of ways of doing things.
> 
> First, since I don't consider glossy an exhibition medium, what to use is
> not an issue.  I use gel pens or a soft pencil, depending on the surface.
> However, I like the idea of using the Rapidograph filled with ink.  Long
> time ago I used india ink but it became a hassle.
> 
> I guess this is a holdover from silver days, but I leave room.
> Five-by-seven goes in the middle of an 8x10 sheet; eight-by-ten goes either
> in the middle of 11x14 or 8-1/2x11.  If it's a full 8x10 that will be custom
> matted, it goes in 11x14, signature and title below it.  If it's something
> that is thrown out there that may be stuck in an off-the-shelf mat, the
> image is 7-1/2x9-1/2 --the size of the opening in those mats.
> 
> I don't sign everything.  I figure it's worth more.  HOWEVER, I have had
> people buy something then ask if I'd sign it.  I think they like that little
> thrill.
> 
> If I frame it or mat it, it says "Copyright, do not reproduce" on the back.
> Anything I mat also has a piece of mat board hinged to the front mat.  If I
> frame it, the next layer back is waxed paper then foam core.  The foam core
> is marked.
> 
> Authenticating??  Naw. I am not Ansel Adams; nor am I dead yet.  So, I don't
> have a foundation to tell people my prints are really from the original
> negs, etc.  I DO put a small sheet on the back explaining whether:
> 
> 1.  The that the mat board and backing board are acid free or that they are
> pH neutral (usually the later).  And, the linen hinge with removeable
> adhesive.
> 2.  There is a layer of wax paper and why (in case they start
> disassembling).
> 3.  Whether or not the foam core is "archival quality."
> 4.  The reason for metal frames and what they face going to wood or
> composite.
> 5.  The reason I do NOT put brown dust covers OR why there is white paper
> (butcher paper w/o a "sweet" side.
> 
> It's all short and simple and small.
> 
> If you sign the front that's all the copyright notice you need.
> 
> I am also toying with the idea on some of the LE Seri/Lithographs I have.
> They seem to always have their signature in the image.  Truth is it's from
> them signing the original painting, so I am not sure of the validity in a
> photograph.  Then the Seri/Litho is pencil signed, numbered in the white
> border, which authenticates the print edition by the artist.
> 
> I have put out info sheets that explain what "Archival" really is and
> exhibiting problems.  People read those and take them home.
> 
> Seth

>I is very important to use an ink that will not fade. Most of these 
>pens that you can pick up in office supply stored will fade ...

In my fade tests the pen markings usually disappear quickly.  They must be
dyes.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul Roark wrote:

>  
>
>>I is very important to use an ink that will not fade. Most of these 
>>pens that you can pick up in office supply stored will fade ...
>>    
>>
>
>In my fade tests the pen markings usually disappear quickly.  They must be
>dyes.
>
>Paul
>www.PaulRoark.com 
>
>  
>
With the exception of the Lumocolor fibre tip pens made by Staedtler.  
Not only are they more fade resistant but their chemical resistance 
seems to be high enough to use them as an etch resist in PCB etching. 
The choice of colors is limited though. The "permanent" Lumocolor is the 
type you need.

http://www.opusframing.com/sales/pdf/drawing_pen_ink.pdf

Ernst

Steve,

What I mean is that if you print a n-point grayscale from 255-0 with most 
printers or the R800 with GLOP-off, the 255 patch is simply paper white - no 
ink on it. When you turn GLOP on in the R800, you get a shiny patch of pure 
gloss there. This matches the lack of gloss in non-inked areas to the high 
gloss of the inked areas.

What I'm doing at this very moment is looking at at grayscale patches from 
255-198 in 1-point increments (www.ZuberPhotographics.com) and trying to 
decide which of them has GLOP on by comparing them with the same patches 
printed with GLOP turned off. I need a 'glossometer'. Decoding the file as 
Koloshor suggests, might be easier!

Hasn't Paul persuaded MIS to give him an R800 yet?

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>

Sorry, I am not sure I understand what you mean.

Got it.

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:36:00 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: glop concept goofy, temporary?
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> What I mean is that if you print a n-point grayscale from 255-0 with most
> printers or the R800 with GLOP-off, the 255 patch is simply paper white - no
> ink on it. When you turn GLOP on in the R800, you get a shiny patch of pure
> gloss there. This matches the lack of gloss in non-inked areas to the high
> gloss of the inked areas.
> 
> What I'm doing at this very moment is looking at at grayscale patches from
> 255-198 in 1-point increments (www.ZuberPhotographics.com) and trying to
> decide which of them has GLOP on by comparing them with the same patches
> printed with GLOP turned off. I need a 'glossometer'. Decoding the file as
> Koloshor suggests, might be easier!
> 
> Hasn't Paul persuaded MIS to give him an R800 yet?
> 
> Bob Frost.

Hi Paul and Others,

Sorry I didn't read much of this thread, but this is an issue that I research 
quite a bit a year or so ago.  I settled on Faber Castell PITT artist pens which 
use a pigmented India ink that is advertised as quite permanent.  I sign my 
RC prints (Epson Premium Luster) with these pens, which come in a set of 4 
sizes for $8.95 at my local art supply store.  Since my mat covers the white of 
the paper border and the signature, I also sign the mat in pencil.  However, 
now that I print mostly on cotton rag papers, I leave ~1/2" paper border 
showing inside the 8-ply mat and sign in this border with pencil.  Cheers,

Tom Andrews
http://www.wildlandart.com

> 
> >I is very important to use an ink that will not fade. Most of these 
> >pens that you can pick up in office supply stored will fade ...
> 
> In my fade tests the pen markings usually disappear quickly.  They must be
> dyes.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com