Digital BW, The Print

I just wanted to find out if anyone out there is experiencing 
banding while using QTR.  I first tried QTR using a 2100 and always 
had banding.  This would be most evident in highlights or on skin 
tones.  I upgraded to a 4000 and downloaded the latest QTR version 
but still have the same problem.  QTR always has banding for me no 
matter what profiles I try.  With ImagePrint I am normally banding 
free but there are the occassional images that band.  With the Epson 
driver, I never have banding.  

I am wondering if the cause of this has got to do with the way the 
curves/profiles are written and how these RIPS lay ink down on 
paper.  I was also thinking that these RIPS probably use plenty of 
Black ink and that if there was a slight problem with a black nozzle 
banding would show up.  However, my nozzle checks are perfect and I 
have no banding when printing BO on matte and glossy papers.  

I like the flexibility of QTR but it always bands for me.  Hope some 
experts out there can comment.  Thank you in advance.

JM

What resolution and speed?  I use 1440super and Better on my 2100.  No
banding.  I do get banding at straight 1440.  I also use Ordered dither.

> From: joemulligan_68 <joemulligan_68@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 03:46:58 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] QTR and Banding - ALWAYS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just wanted to find out if anyone out there is experiencing
> banding while using QTR.  I first tried QTR using a 2100 and always
> had banding.  This would be most evident in highlights or on skin
> tones.  I upgraded to a 4000 and downloaded the latest QTR version
> but still have the same problem.  QTR always has banding for me no
> matter what profiles I try.  With ImagePrint I am normally banding
> free but there are the occassional images that band.  With the Epson
> driver, I never have banding.
> 
> I am wondering if the cause of this has got to do with the way the
> curves/profiles are written and how these RIPS lay ink down on
> paper.  I was also thinking that these RIPS probably use plenty of
> Black ink and that if there was a slight problem with a black nozzle
> banding would show up.  However, my nozzle checks are perfect and I
> have no banding when printing BO on matte and glossy papers.
> 
> I like the flexibility of QTR but it always bands for me.  Hope some
> experts out there can comment.  Thank you in advance.
> 
> JM

Hi Steve,

Thank you for your response.

I also use 1440 super and better as well as Ordered Dither.  No 
matter what settings I use QTR always bands. I am wondering if what 
I am mistaking for banding is actually visible dithering but I tried 
adding 2% noise and 5% and this problem is still evident.  I am 
certain this is not a nozzle problem like I mentioned in my previous 
post.  

Am I the only one experiencing this problem?  Do you have any other 
suggestions?  The flexibility of QTR is excellent, now only if I can 
just get rid of these darned lines!

Many thanks,

JM
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> What resolution and speed?  I use 1440super and Better on my 
2100.  No
> banding.  I do get banding at straight 1440.  I also use Ordered 
dither.
> 
> 
> > From: joemulligan_68 <joemulligan_68@y...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 03:46:58 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] QTR and Banding - ALWAYS
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I just wanted to find out if anyone out there is experiencing
> > banding while using QTR.  I first tried QTR using a 2100 and 
always
> > had banding.  This would be most evident in highlights or on skin
> > tones.  I upgraded to a 4000 and downloaded the latest QTR 
version
> > but still have the same problem.  QTR always has banding for me 
no
> > matter what profiles I try.  With ImagePrint I am normally 
banding
> > free but there are the occassional images that band.  With the 
Epson
> > driver, I never have banding.
> > 
> > I am wondering if the cause of this has got to do with the way 
the
> > curves/profiles are written and how these RIPS lay ink down on
> > paper.  I was also thinking that these RIPS probably use plenty 
of
> > Black ink and that if there was a slight problem with a black 
nozzle
> > banding would show up.  However, my nozzle checks are perfect 
and I
> > have no banding when printing BO on matte and glossy papers.
> > 
> > I like the flexibility of QTR but it always bands for me.  Hope 
some

> > experts out there can comment.  Thank you in advance.
> > 
> > JM

Banding will be parallel to the movement of the print head.  This I do not
get except with 1440 (not super).  I am a bit late to this thread but have
you done a head alignment etc?

> From: joemulligan_68 <joemulligan_68@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:51:15 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR and Banding - ALWAYS
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> Thank you for your response.
> 
> I also use 1440 super and better as well as Ordered Dither.  No
> matter what settings I use QTR always bands. I am wondering if what
> I am mistaking for banding is actually visible dithering but I tried
> adding 2% noise and 5% and this problem is still evident.  I am
> certain this is not a nozzle problem like I mentioned in my previous
> post.  
> 
> Am I the only one experiencing this problem?  Do you have any other
> suggestions?  The flexibility of QTR is excellent, now only if I can
> just get rid of these darned lines!
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> JM

Hi JM,

I did a slew of profiles for multiple papers and inksets and actually 
got one that gave serious posterization in the bright skin tone 
areas. All I did was rescanned the target, entered linearization 
data, and regenerated the curve and the problem went away.

I have no idea that might have caused the problem, but with the 
problem profile I noticed a sharp dip just about where I noticed the 
banding or posterization. This could not have been caused by my 
reading an incorrect target because the dip is very sharp.

It could have been the data I entered manually and made a mistake 
somewhere. For the rest of the profiles data are entered using a more 
automated process to reduce possibility for errors.

I hope this help,
--nick

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "joemulligan_68" 
<joemulligan_68@y...> wrote:

> 
> ... I also use 1440 super and better as well as Ordered Dither.  No 
> matter what settings I use QTR always bands. I am wondering if what 
> I am mistaking for banding is actually visible dithering but I 
> tried adding 2% noise and 5% and this problem is still evident.  I 
> am certain this is not a nozzle problem like I mentioned in my 
> previous post...

Hi Nick,

Thank you for your feedback.  I simply use the curves that are 
loaded with the Windows version of QTR/QTRgui.  Yesterday, I printed 
some images of rock formations with sky and clouds above.  What I 
notice is that the highlights show some sort of "dither banding" 
while with the shadows (rocks) this banding or dithering is 
camouflaged.  It is highly obvious in high key images.  This banding 
always runs parallel to the print head.  I have ruled out paper 
alignment and nozzle problems because this problem only happens with 
QTR.  It sometimes happens on some images with Imageprint but I have 
never seen it printing the same files with IJC/OPM nor the standard 
Epson driver.   

I just want to know if anyone has the same problem.  I can try and 
relinearize as you suggest but this problem happens with every curve 
that is loaded with QTR.

Any other thoughts?

JM
-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nick H. Nugent" 
<nghin@p...> wrote:
> 
> Hi JM,
> 
> I did a slew of profiles for multiple papers and inksets and 
actually 
> got one that gave serious posterization in the bright skin tone 
> areas. All I did was rescanned the target, entered linearization 
> data, and regenerated the curve and the problem went away.
> 
> I have no idea that might have caused the problem, but with the 
> problem profile I noticed a sharp dip just about where I noticed 
the 
> banding or posterization. This could not have been caused by my 
> reading an incorrect target because the dip is very sharp.
> 
> It could have been the data I entered manually and made a mistake 
> somewhere. For the rest of the profiles data are entered using a 
more 
> automated process to reduce possibility for errors.
> 
> I hope this help,
> --nick
> 
> --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "joemulligan_68" 
> <joemulligan_68@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > ... I also use 1440 super and better as well as Ordered Dither.  
No 
> > matter what settings I use QTR always bands. I am wondering if 
what 
> > I am mistaking for banding is actually visible dithering but I 
> > tried adding 2% noise and 5% and this problem is still evident.  
I 
> > am certain this is not a nozzle problem like I mentioned in my 
> > previous post...

Hi JM,

I think I understand a little better now. At this point I can only
speculate as to what may be the source of this banding. 

Each profile supplied with either QTR or IJC/OPM, or Imageprint for
that matter, are designed from a particular printer and media, and
ink. As we know all Epsons of a particular model are not the same.
What I'm leading to is the ink limits and densities may vary from
printer to printer. This may lead to a rare but very possible scenario
in which you get an extremely narrow overlap between the light and
medium gray inks. 

One ink starts to fade out before the other gains in strength causing
a lack of a smooth transition in tones. I can easily see that the
transition from medium to light gray is the most vulnerable to
variation in printhead characteristic. So I think it just so happens
that the canned profile that came with QTR doesn't work properly in
your situation. Again I'm assuming that missing or deflecting nozzles
are not involved.

I think it is a good idea to create a profile for the paper/inkset
that you are having problems with. You can quickly create one within
just half an hour just to prove whether the problem is with QTR or not.

--nick

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "joemulligan_68"
<joemulligan_68@y...> wrote:

> 
> Hi Nick,
> 
> Thank you for your feedback.  I simply use the curves that are 
> loaded with the Windows version of QTR/QTRgui.  Yesterday, I printed 
> some images of rock formations with sky and clouds above.  What I 
> notice is that the highlights show some sort of "dither banding" 
> while with the shadows (rocks) this banding or dithering is 
> camouflaged.  It is highly obvious in high key images.  This banding 
> always runs parallel to the print head.  I have ruled out paper 
> alignment and nozzle problems because this problem only happens with 
> QTR.  It sometimes happens on some images with Imageprint but I have 
> never seen it printing the same files with IJC/OPM nor the standard 
> Epson driver.   
> 
> I just want to know if anyone has the same problem.  I can try and 
> relinearize as you suggest but this problem happens with every curve 
> that is loaded with QTR.
> 
> Any other thoughts?
> 
> JM
> -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nick H. Nugent" 
> <nghin@p...> wrote:
> > 
> > Hi JM,
> > 
> > I did a slew of profiles for multiple papers and inksets and 
> actually 
> > got one that gave serious posterization in the bright skin tone 
> > areas. All I did was rescanned the target, entered linearization 
> > data, and regenerated the curve and the problem went away.
> > 
> > I have no idea that might have caused the problem, but with the 
> > problem profile I noticed a sharp dip just about where I noticed 
> the 
> > banding or posterization. This could not have been caused by my 
> > reading an incorrect target because the dip is very sharp.
> > 
> > It could have been the data I entered manually and made a mistake 
> > somewhere. For the rest of the profiles data are entered using a 
> more 
> > automated process to reduce possibility for errors.
> > 
> > I hope this help,
> > --nick
> > 
> > --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "joemulligan_68" 
> > <joemulligan_68@y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > ... I also use 1440 super and better as well as Ordered Dither.  
> No 
> > > matter what settings I use QTR always bands. I am wondering if 
> what 
> > > I am mistaking for banding is actually visible dithering but I 
> > > tried adding 2% noise and 5% and this problem is still evident.  
> I 
> > > am certain this is not a nozzle problem like I mentioned in my 
> > > previous post...

Hi Jm;

I've had a fairly persistent banding problem with QTR on my 7600. 
Sounds like yours is worst though. I can almost get rid of it 
completely if I print at 2880, Better, and Adaptive Hybrid 
dithering. test those settings & see if they help

Steve Karafyllakis


--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "joemulligan_68" 
<joemulligan_68@y...> wrote:
> 
> Hi Nick,
> 
> Thank you for your feedback.  I simply use the curves that are 
> loaded with the Windows version of QTR/QTRgui.  Yesterday, I 
printed 
> some images of rock formations with sky and clouds above.  What I 
> notice is that the highlights show some sort of "dither banding" 
> while with the shadows (rocks) this banding or dithering is 
> camouflaged.  It is highly obvious in high key images.  This 
banding 
> always runs parallel to the print head.  I have ruled out paper 
> alignment and nozzle problems because this problem only happens 
with 
> QTR.  It sometimes happens on some images with Imageprint but I 
have 
> never seen it printing the same files with IJC/OPM nor the 
standard 
> Epson driver.   
> 
> I just want to know if anyone has the same problem.  I can try and 
> relinearize as you suggest but this problem happens with every 
curve 
> that is loaded with QTR.
> 
> Any other thoughts?
> 
> JM
> -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nick H. 
Nugent" 
> <nghin@p...> wrote:
> > 
> > Hi JM,
> > 
> > I did a slew of profiles for multiple papers and inksets and 
> actually 
> > got one that gave serious posterization in the bright skin tone 
> > areas. All I did was rescanned the target, entered linearization 
> > data, and regenerated the curve and the problem went away.
> > 
> > I have no idea that might have caused the problem, but with the 
> > problem profile I noticed a sharp dip just about where I noticed 
> the 
> > banding or posterization. This could not have been caused by my 
> > reading an incorrect target because the dip is very sharp.
> > 
> > It could have been the data I entered manually and made a 
mistake 
> > somewhere. For the rest of the profiles data are entered using a 
> more 
> > automated process to reduce possibility for errors.
> > 
> > I hope this help,
> > --nick
> > 
> > --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "joemulligan_68" 
> > <joemulligan_68@y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > ... I also use 1440 super and better as well as Ordered 
Dither.  
> No 
> > > matter what settings I use QTR always bands. I am wondering if 
> what 
> > > I am mistaking for banding is actually visible dithering but I 
> > > tried adding 2% noise and 5% and this problem is still 
evident.  

> I 
> > > am certain this is not a nozzle problem like I mentioned in my 
> > > previous post...

Ok one last thought - download the purge file from MIS and print it
Standard.  I still think you might have a nozzle problem.  See if you have
any gaps.

> From: "Nick H. Nugent" <nghin@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 04:29:56 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR and Banding - ALWAYS
> 
> 
> 
> Hi JM,
> 
> I think I understand a little better now. At this point I can only
> speculate as to what may be the source of this banding.
> 
> Each profile supplied with either QTR or IJC/OPM, or Imageprint for
> that matter, are designed from a particular printer and media, and
> ink. As we know all Epsons of a particular model are not the same.
> What I'm leading to is the ink limits and densities may vary from
> printer to printer. This may lead to a rare but very possible scenario
> in which you get an extremely narrow overlap between the light and
> medium gray inks.
> 
> One ink starts to fade out before the other gains in strength causing
> a lack of a smooth transition in tones. I can easily see that the
> transition from medium to light gray is the most vulnerable to
> variation in printhead characteristic. So I think it just so happens
> that the canned profile that came with QTR doesn't work properly in
> your situation. Again I'm assuming that missing or deflecting nozzles
> are not involved.
> 
> I think it is a good idea to create a profile for the paper/inkset
> that you are having problems with. You can quickly create one within
> just half an hour just to prove whether the problem is with QTR or not.
> 
> --nick
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "joemulligan_68"
> <joemulligan_68@y...> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Nick,
>> 
>> Thank you for your feedback.  I simply use the curves that are
>> loaded with the Windows version of QTR/QTRgui.  Yesterday, I printed
>> some images of rock formations with sky and clouds above.  What I
>> notice is that the highlights show some sort of "dither banding"
>> while with the shadows (rocks) this banding or dithering is
>> camouflaged.  It is highly obvious in high key images.  This banding
>> always runs parallel to the print head.  I have ruled out paper
>> alignment and nozzle problems because this problem only happens with
>> QTR.  It sometimes happens on some images with Imageprint but I have
>> never seen it printing the same files with IJC/OPM nor the standard
>> Epson driver.   
>> 
>> I just want to know if anyone has the same problem.  I can try and
>> relinearize as you suggest but this problem happens with every curve
>> that is loaded with QTR.
>> 
>> Any other thoughts?
>> 
>> JM