Digital BW, The Print

Steadman, thanks for the post. I too love the output of piezo - and until I
started having problems I wouldn't have changed for the world. Like you I've
spent far too long building up a skills base. But Piezo has a mystique to it
which gets in the way of logic. It is part of marketing or branding and i
think needs to be taken carefully.Other inks are available at a fraction of
the cost that give identical output to what you are used to. Very few people
can actually comment on inksets - people like Mike, Bernd, etc have used
Piezo and made comparisons with other inksets - and there are valid
alternatives. Everything that you claim for Piezo is available elsewhere at
much cheaper costs without ANY logged problems. If you check the archives of
piezo list, I used to post similar things to you, then I got clogs,
greenies, etc etc. For a long time people on th epiezo list who had problems
were marginalised and dismissed. Now these problems are more widespread and
I firmly believe that there is a problem with the system. Viscosity is one
thing that Epson has mentioned, and may be the reason why MIS doesn't get
this. The green dye dropping out of suspension etc etc Use piezo or whatever
inkset you choose, but I think much more testing is needed beforeI can
support the piezo mystique.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:24 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] For Julian: To Piezo or Not to Piezo...that is a
question.


> Hello Julian,
>
> In answer to your question, no,  I have not seen any MIS VM or FS prints.
I would like to see Bernd's comparison prints if possible...mostly because I
like Bernd's subjects and prints.
>
> I too think it is good that alternative processes are discussed on this
forum...regardless of the manufacturer, workflow, inkset, or paper.  That
sharing of new ideas techniques and products is what will keep the digital
bw movement good and going forward.
>
> Your recent post indicated the cost difference between two inks shipped to
Spain.  Your decision makes economic sense to you and would to me if I lived
in Spain.
>
> So if that makes good economics for you, why have I not switched to MIS
inks?
>
> Simply put, it is a matter of time and investment and expected results.
You see, I have already invested in Piezo software and inks, which are
admittedly more expensive than some of the alternatives.  But, I consider
the cost of the inks to be incidental and the cost "savings" of using
another ink such as MIS to be inconsequential for me.  Why?  Simply because
the "real cost" to me is the time it takes to make a salable print.  By that
I mean that I don't want to spend any time more than necessary to "adjust
curves" or fiddle with transfer functions or other means of getting "close"
to what I want to see.
>
> The Piezo system is WYSIWYG or "what you see is what you print:  WYSIWYP"
in my opinion.  I use a calibrated monitor, and when my image looks good on
screen, I know that is what I will get from my printer.  I don't think that
can be said for another system.  So if I were to save 50 cents per print by
using a cheap ink, I most likely will waste that "savings" by spending more
time using a system that requires more experimentation and less WYSIWYG.  At
least that is my economic take on it.  Admittedly, I like to keep my
darkroom photography and printmaking as simple as possible so I can spend
more time with clients and more time off on the weekends and evenings. That
is good economic sense to me...in my situation.
>
> Some people may think I am opposed to using anything but Piezo inks.  That
is not true.  The truth is that I am not opposed at all.  I simply have a
fondness for a system (Piezo) that I use that works and delivers outstanding
fine art prints using an inexpensive printer...and in my
opinion...reasonably and relatively (to Pro lab costs) inexpensive inks that
I believe are "archival" due to their carbon pigment base.
>
> IF at times it seems that I am a strict Piezophile, it is a misconception
due to the nature of some of my posts.  I simply post the positives as I
honestly see it.  Most of the posts on this forum regarding Piezo have been
negative, most often by folks who have not had success with the Piezo system
(due to any number of factors).  Because these folks have had "real"
problems with the system, and because they blame the inks for their
problems, I feel it is only fair to give them and others (especially those
that may not have used Piezo yet) a more balanced viewpoint...by offering
the experiences of someone who is getting stunningly beautiful Piezo prints.
And if I were a newbie to this (which I was, not long ago) I would be
disappointed in a potential product if all I read on the forum were
negatives.   In truth, there are many positives.
>
> I bought into Piezo for various reasons.  I wanted a simple system with
software that would work for me...so I did not have to work for it (hope
that makes sense...put another way I wanted "user-friendly" software).  I
also wanted paper profiles.  I also wanted carbon pigment inks.  I also
wanted no dots.  I also wanted a company with good technical support that is
free and knowledgeable.   I got all of that with Piezo and Inkjetmall.
>
> Can other companies provide a good competitive product?  I sure hope so.
And I wish them the best of luck. And I may buy their products if they can
provide something that I cannot get elsewhere or with my current system.
>
> On every issue above, the Piezo system has exceeded my expectations...and
I did have high expectations too.   Perhaps I am lucky.  But lest you think
my use of Piezo is faultless, I can say with all honesty that I have had
nozzle clogs (I have even written to a forum about them), I have tried
Windex and Fantastic, I have had a printer shut down  for a few days with
intermittent nozzle problems.  But I take those events or mishaps in stride.
What keeps me going is the final result...which more often than not delivers
prints of outstanding quality.
>
> As I wrote in my previous message, I am pleased as punch that I got 12 or
more 11x14s prints in a row that were "flawless" out of my inexpensive 1160.
Those prints have already been "sold" and have paid for the printer and the
inks and my time...several times over.  As a professional photographer, that
is important.  I depend on these prints for my income.
>
> In the end, we all can choose different tools.  What someone else chooses
to use is of no matter to me.  Where I take exception, is when people make
claims or assertions that the Piezo system is somehow responsible for
creating only ugly green prints.  If someone were to see my prints on
exhibition, they would know that is not true...at least for my use of the
system.  I get rich deep velvet-like blacks and wonderful skintones with
great highlights (especially important as I am focused on portraits).
>
> If someone does have problems with their CIS or their carts or their
printer or their paper, I consider that just part of life...and to my
experience the manufacturers of the CIS (nomorecarts), the ink (Inkjetmall),
and the papers have all been very good about replacing any product that is
proven defective...and even some product that has not been truly proven
defective.    Nevertheless the "problems" must be frustrating to be sure.
But the experience of the photographers who are having a problem does not
mean that all systems are bad or deliver poor results.  The facts
demonstrate that excellent prints can come from a Piezo system...just maybe
not all systems...and maybe not all photographers who use them.
>
> Well this commentary has gotten much longer than I intended.  I hope it
helps someone.
>
> With sincere respect,
>
> Steadman
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Julian Thomas
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:56 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
>
>
>   Steadman, I have to ask, have you seen MIS FS output through the cone
>   driver? Like Mike K, I think that piezo software is bang on, especially
for
>   4 colour printers, but there are problems with the inks for a growing
number
>   of people. I hope to be moving to a 7000 soon, and I'll be using the
piezo
>   software, but MIS FS inks. One of the things I will be eternally
thankfull
>   to this list for is that it has opened up other possibilities beyond
piezo.
>   Bernd has just sent me his set of prints of comparisons of Piezo with
>   various other combinations. FS through the Cone driver is 'different' to
>   piezo, slightly, but  a slight curves tweak would get the same result.
>   Smooth tones, dotless highlights, the colour of piezo when piezo is on
form.
>   BTW others have said that piezo compresses shadow detail, and I don't
see
>   that. A comparison of the 'stair' image and bernd's print show more
visible
>   detail in the stairs and a dark chimney area in Bernd's print from
Piezo,
>   but this is easily corrected. For 6 colour printers, bernd's print on
MIS VM
>   with a no. 3 curve is truly beautiful.
>
>   Julian
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
>   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:53 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
>
>
>   > It is too bad you see green with your PiezoBW system and that it is a
>   disappointment for you.
>   >
>   > I just framed (12) 11x14 prints today on a variety of papers all made
with
>   PiezoBW inks.  Each one is lovely.  No green at all.  Some of the blacks
>   must be seen to be believed because of the richness and depth.  On a few
of
>   the images, the skin tones "glow" and contrasted with the black velvety
>   background on a few, the impression is of great texture and depth.
All of
>   these prints have been seen by over a dozen people in different lighting
>   environments and no one sees green at all.  They all comment on the rich
>   tones of grey and the luminous skin and the velvet black which because
it is
>   printed on a matte paper...looks like real velvet...not some plasticky
RC
>   surface gloss.
>   >
>   > But maybe you just had a little bad luck or a bad printer or bad
karma.
>   >
>   > I say this because when or if you get a Piezo system that works, you
will
>   not want to switch.  It can be that good.
>   >
>   > Good luck,
>   >
>   > Steadman
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: djcook50@...
>   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   >   Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:05 PM
>   >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
>   >
>   >
>   >   Thanks for the feedback Joe.
>   >
>   >   Too bad the piezography system is disappointing.  Do you get the
>   >   green cast results with all papers you've tried?
>   >
>   >   Prior to the piezography system did you have any luck with other
inks
>   >   and workflows?
>   >
>   >   Dave
>   >
>   >
>   >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Joseph Glasgow
>   >   <joeglas3@y...> wrote:
>   >   > --- djcook50@y... wrote:
>   >   > > I'm interested in hearing from anyone who's found a
>   >   > > good workflow for
>   >   > > the original MIS Quadtone inks, specifically using
>   >   > > the Epson 1200 .>
>   >   > > Anyone using the Epson 1200 and original MIS
>   >   > > Quadtones successfully?
>   >   > > > Also, is there anyone who's made the switch to
>   >   > > Piezography using the > 1200 with satisfactory
>   >   > results?  This seems to be
>   >   > > the direction I'm
>   >   > > heading.
>   >   > >
>   >   > > I'm much more interested in making excellent B&W
>   >   > > prints than
>   >   > > continually tweaking and testing.
>   >   > >
>   >   > > Thanks,
>   >   > > David
>   >   >
>   >   >      I am working with piezography software and an
>   >   > Epson 1200 printer. I like the ease of the software
>   >   > and the excellent tonal range of the prints. But the
>   >   > ugly green cast of the finished product is
>   >   > unacceptable. This green cast appears with every paper
>   >   > that I have tried from the cone tech sample pack.  the
>   >   > green cast of my prints in no way resembles the color
>   >   > cast of the free sample print that I received from the
>   >   > inkjetmall in the mail. I would like to say that all
>   >   > is well with Piezography but it is not.
>   >   >
>   >   >                     joe
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   >
>   >   >
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Sounds to me like the middle path is to use the Piezo software and go 
with one of the alternative inksets. Sure, you might have to do some 
tweaking here and there, but you'd retain Piezo's great strength (I 
haven't heard anyone criticize Piezo software, only praise) while 
avoiding some of its problems. 

Chris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Steadman, thanks for the post. I too love the output of piezo - and 
until I
> started having problems I wouldn't have changed for the world. Like 
you I've
> spent far too long building up a skills base. But Piezo has a 
mystique to it
> which gets in the way of logic. It is part of marketing or branding 
and i
> think needs to be taken carefully.Other inks are available at a 
fraction of
> the cost that give identical output to what you are used to. Very 
few people
> can actually comment on inksets - people like Mike, Bernd, etc have 
used
> Piezo and made comparisons with other inksets - and there are valid
> alternatives. Everything that you claim for Piezo is available 
elsewhere at
> much cheaper costs without ANY logged problems. If you check the 
archives of
> piezo list, I used to post similar things to you, then I got clogs,
> greenies, etc etc. For a long time people on th epiezo list who had 
problems
> were marginalised and dismissed. Now these problems are more 
widespread and
> I firmly believe that there is a problem with the system. Viscosity 
is one
> thing that Epson has mentioned, and may be the reason why MIS 
doesn't get
> this. The green dye dropping out of suspension etc etc Use piezo or 
whatever
> inkset you choose, but I think much more testing is needed beforeI 
can
> support the piezo mystique.
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@k...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:24 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] For Julian: To Piezo or Not to Piezo...that 
is a
> question.
> 
> 
> > Hello Julian,
> >
> > In answer to your question, no,  I have not seen any MIS VM or FS 
prints.
> I would like to see Bernd's comparison prints if possible...mostly 
because I
> like Bernd's subjects and prints.
> >
> > I too think it is good that alternative processes are discussed 
on this
> forum...regardless of the manufacturer, workflow, inkset, or 
paper.  That
> sharing of new ideas techniques and products is what will keep the 
digital
> bw movement good and going forward.
> >
> > Your recent post indicated the cost difference between two inks 
shipped to
> Spain.  Your decision makes economic sense to you and would to me 
if I lived
> in Spain.
> >
> > So if that makes good economics for you, why have I not switched 
to MIS
> inks?
> >
> > Simply put, it is a matter of time and investment and expected 
results.
> You see, I have already invested in Piezo software and inks, which 
are
> admittedly more expensive than some of the alternatives.  But, I 
consider
> the cost of the inks to be incidental and the cost "savings" of 
using
> another ink such as MIS to be inconsequential for me.  Why?  Simply 
because
> the "real cost" to me is the time it takes to make a salable 
print.  By that
> I mean that I don't want to spend any time more than necessary 
to "adjust
> curves" or fiddle with transfer functions or other means of 
getting "close"
> to what I want to see.
> >
> > The Piezo system is WYSIWYG or "what you see is what you print:  
WYSIWYP"
> in my opinion.  I use a calibrated monitor, and when my image looks 
good on
> screen, I know that is what I will get from my printer.  I don't 
think that
> can be said for another system.  So if I were to save 50 cents per 
print by
> using a cheap ink, I most likely will waste that "savings" by 
spending more
> time using a system that requires more experimentation and less 
WYSIWYG.  At
> least that is my economic take on it.  Admittedly, I like to keep my
> darkroom photography and printmaking as simple as possible so I can 
spend
> more time with clients and more time off on the weekends and 
evenings. That
> is good economic sense to me...in my situation.
> >
> > Some people may think I am opposed to using anything but Piezo 
inks.  That
> is not true.  The truth is that I am not opposed at all.  I simply 
have a
> fondness for a system (Piezo) that I use that works and delivers 
outstanding
> fine art prints using an inexpensive printer...and in my
> opinion...reasonably and relatively (to Pro lab costs) inexpensive 
inks that
> I believe are "archival" due to their carbon pigment base.
> >
> > IF at times it seems that I am a strict Piezophile, it is a 
misconception
> due to the nature of some of my posts.  I simply post the positives 
as I
> honestly see it.  Most of the posts on this forum regarding Piezo 
have been
> negative, most often by folks who have not had success with the 
Piezo system
> (due to any number of factors).  Because these folks have had "real"
> problems with the system, and because they blame the inks for their
> problems, I feel it is only fair to give them and others 
(especially those
> that may not have used Piezo yet) a more balanced viewpoint...by 
offering
> the experiences of someone who is getting stunningly beautiful 
Piezo prints.
> And if I were a newbie to this (which I was, not long ago) I would 
be
> disappointed in a potential product if all I read on the forum were
> negatives.   In truth, there are many positives.
> >
> > I bought into Piezo for various reasons.  I wanted a simple 
system with
> software that would work for me...so I did not have to work for it 
(hope
> that makes sense...put another way I wanted "user-friendly" 
software).  I
> also wanted paper profiles.  I also wanted carbon pigment inks.  I 
also
> wanted no dots.  I also wanted a company with good technical 
support that is
> free and knowledgeable.   I got all of that with Piezo and 
Inkjetmall.
> >
> > Can other companies provide a good competitive product?  I sure 
hope so.
> And I wish them the best of luck. And I may buy their products if 
they can
> provide something that I cannot get elsewhere or with my current 
system.
> >
> > On every issue above, the Piezo system has exceeded my 
expectations...and
> I did have high expectations too.   Perhaps I am lucky.  But lest 
you think
> my use of Piezo is faultless, I can say with all honesty that I 
have had
> nozzle clogs (I have even written to a forum about them), I have 
tried
> Windex and Fantastic, I have had a printer shut down  for a few 
days with
> intermittent nozzle problems.  But I take those events or mishaps 
in stride.
> What keeps me going is the final result...which more often than not 
delivers
> prints of outstanding quality.
> >
> > As I wrote in my previous message, I am pleased as punch that I 
got 12 or
> more 11x14s prints in a row that were "flawless" out of my 
inexpensive 1160.
> Those prints have already been "sold" and have paid for the printer 
and the
> inks and my time...several times over.  As a professional 
photographer, that
> is important.  I depend on these prints for my income.
> >
> > In the end, we all can choose different tools.  What someone else 
chooses
> to use is of no matter to me.  Where I take exception, is when 
people make
> claims or assertions that the Piezo system is somehow responsible 
for
> creating only ugly green prints.  If someone were to see my prints 
on
> exhibition, they would know that is not true...at least for my use 
of the
> system.  I get rich deep velvet-like blacks and wonderful skintones 
with
> great highlights (especially important as I am focused on 
portraits).
> >
> > If someone does have problems with their CIS or their carts or 
their
> printer or their paper, I consider that just part of life...and to 
my
> experience the manufacturers of the CIS (nomorecarts), the ink 
(Inkjetmall),
> and the papers have all been very good about replacing any product 
that is
> proven defective...and even some product that has not been truly 
proven
> defective.    Nevertheless the "problems" must be frustrating to be 
sure.
> But the experience of the photographers who are having a problem 
does not
> mean that all systems are bad or deliver poor results.  The facts
> demonstrate that excellent prints can come from a Piezo 
system...just maybe
> not all systems...and maybe not all photographers who use them.
> >
> > Well this commentary has gotten much longer than I intended.  I 
hope it
> helps someone.
> >
> > With sincere respect,
> >
> > Steadman
> >
> >
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: Julian Thomas
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> >   Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:56 AM
> >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
> >
> >
> >   Steadman, I have to ask, have you seen MIS FS output through 
the cone
> >   driver? Like Mike K, I think that piezo software is bang on, 
especially
> for
> >   4 colour printers, but there are problems with the inks for a 
growing
> number
> >   of people. I hope to be moving to a 7000 soon, and I'll be 
using the
> piezo
> >   software, but MIS FS inks. One of the things I will be eternally
> thankfull
> >   to this list for is that it has opened up other possibilities 
beyond
> piezo.
> >   Bernd has just sent me his set of prints of comparisons of 
Piezo with
> >   various other combinations. FS through the Cone driver 
is 'different' to
> >   piezo, slightly, but  a slight curves tweak would get the same 
result.
> >   Smooth tones, dotless highlights, the colour of piezo when 
piezo is on
> form.
> >   BTW others have said that piezo compresses shadow detail, and I 
don't
> see
> >   that. A comparison of the 'stair' image and bernd's print show 
more
> visible
> >   detail in the stairs and a dark chimney area in Bernd's print 
from
> Piezo,
> >   but this is easily corrected. For 6 colour printers, bernd's 
print on
> MIS VM
> >   with a no. 3 curve is truly beautiful.
> >
> >   Julian
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@k...>
> >   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> >   Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:53 AM
> >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
> >
> >
> >   > It is too bad you see green with your PiezoBW system and that 
it is a
> >   disappointment for you.
> >   >
> >   > I just framed (12) 11x14 prints today on a variety of papers 
all made
> with
> >   PiezoBW inks.  Each one is lovely.  No green at all.  Some of 
the blacks
> >   must be seen to be believed because of the richness and depth.  
On a few
> of
> >   the images, the skin tones "glow" and contrasted with the black 
velvety
> >   background on a few, the impression is of great texture and 
depth.
> All of
> >   these prints have been seen by over a dozen people in different 
lighting
> >   environments and no one sees green at all.  They all comment on 
the rich
> >   tones of grey and the luminous skin and the velvet black which 
because
> it is
> >   printed on a matte paper...looks like real velvet...not some 
plasticky
> RC
> >   surface gloss.
> >   >
> >   > But maybe you just had a little bad luck or a bad printer or 
bad
> karma.
> >   >
> >   > I say this because when or if you get a Piezo system that 
works, you
> will
> >   not want to switch.  It can be that good.
> >   >
> >   > Good luck,
> >   >
> >   > Steadman
> >   >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   >   From: djcook50@y...
> >   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> >   >   Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:05 PM
> >   >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >   Thanks for the feedback Joe.
> >   >
> >   >   Too bad the piezography system is disappointing.  Do you 
get the
> >   >   green cast results with all papers you've tried?
> >   >
> >   >   Prior to the piezography system did you have any luck with 
other
> inks
> >   >   and workflows?
> >   >
> >   >   Dave
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Joseph Glasgow
> >   >   <joeglas3@y...> wrote:
> >   >   > --- djcook50@y... wrote:
> >   >   > > I'm interested in hearing from anyone who's found a
> >   >   > > good workflow for
> >   >   > > the original MIS Quadtone inks, specifically using
> >   >   > > the Epson 1200 .>
> >   >   > > Anyone using the Epson 1200 and original MIS
> >   >   > > Quadtones successfully?
> >   >   > > > Also, is there anyone who's made the switch to
> >   >   > > Piezography using the > 1200 with satisfactory
> >   >   > results?  This seems to be
> >   >   > > the direction I'm
> >   >   > > heading.
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > > I'm much more interested in making excellent B&W
> >   >   > > prints than
> >   >   > > continually tweaking and testing.
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > > Thanks,
> >   >   > > David
> >   >   >
> >   >   >      I am working with piezography software and an
> >   >   > Epson 1200 printer. I like the ease of the software
> >   >   > and the excellent tonal range of the prints. But the
> >   >   > ugly green cast of the finished product is
> >   >   > unacceptable. This green cast appears with every paper
> >   >   > that I have tried from the cone tech sample pack.  the
> >   >   > green cast of my prints in no way resembles the color
> >   >   > cast of the free sample print that I received from the
> >   >   > inkjetmall in the mail. I would like to say that all
> >   >   > is well with Piezography but it is not.
> >   >   >
> >   >   >                     joe
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > >
> >   >   >
> >   >   >
> >   >   > __________________________________________________
> >   >   > Do You Yahoo!?
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> >
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> keep them short.
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> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
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> >
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> >

Hello Julian, 

I love mystique...always have.  

I know you have been happy with Piezo in the past and have had your share of problems too.  

But the real message of my message was that "all is not bad" and that there are valid reasons for using either system.  If MIS seems valid to you because you have not had clogs yet or because the price of the inks is less then that is good for you.  I am glad that "valid alternatives" exist for us all. 

But, I have produced wonderful Piezo prints (and continue to do so) that are working for me...so that is great for me.  And the Piezo ink prices are inconsequential to me.  The ink price (for me) is but a small cost compared to the final sale price of the print.  Of course I am also accustomed to buying expensive oil paints for canvas and expensive watercolor paints and expensive papers for my fine art.

Here is my most important point on this message: 

This is not a zero-sum equation where MIS has to be better because Piezo doesn't work for some.  

Of course this zero-sum (somebody has to be the loser) attitude also prevails in many other things.  I see the same type of attitude with some people who play golf and love to talk about the superiority of their clubs...by saying that everyone elses clubs have faults.  I just don't blame my clubs if I don't get the results I expected.  

My attitude is that if the tool works for you...great.  And if it or a different tool works for me...that's great too.  

In the real world, there can be working systems of many kinds.  I just happen to use Piezo and it does work for me.  The real winner in any of this is whoever is producing prints...regardless of the brand of ink. 

And if my post of "positives" on Piezo seems tiresome to some MIS users on this forum, I can only explain that some people (I for one)  feel the same when reading the persistent "negatives" posted by others who claim the Piezo system is incapable of producing good prints...especially when I know for a fact that the Piezo system does deliver as promised...at least for this photographer. 

I have nothing against any other ink  or the users of those inks.  I really don't.  But I think in fairness, this forum should be open to comments about the positives as well as the negatives.   To the best of my knowledge, this forum is intended to be neutral (meaning that one ink manufacturer is not favored over another) and a free forum for discussions of Digital BW regardless of methodology.   

And I also think it is a disservice to all for anyone or this forum to perpetuate claims and statements that paint with a broad inaccurate brush...or even "tests" that have not been independently corroborated.  Actually, as a "tester" myself, I think all tests should be taken with a grain of salt.  For instance, you mention the "green dye dropping out" as a fact. I see no such "fact" in my Piezo system or my Piezo prints.  My prints are a beautiful rich black and wonderful tones of grey.  I have done smear tests of my inks and never seen green despite using several different bottles from different batches of Piezo inks. 

As for many or a "growing number" of Piezo users experiencing problems...well I don't see it that way.  I correspond with folks who have no problems at all...even less than me  (something I envy) ...or are competent enough to overcome any problems they encounter (something I admire greatly).  

I have no agenda to fulfill.  I am not pushing an ink and I am not selling inks and I have not developed "Steadman's Curves" or anything like that.  I am just a happy user of one product that I think is unfairly discussed in this forum.  

I seek no fame as a Piezophile...but I do believe in fairness.  As it is, it appears to me that this forum has more than a natural share of people who are dissatisfied...with just about anything...and maybe that is what these forums always become.  That would be unfortunate.

IF someone has a problem with MIS or Piezo...I consider the source and take it as a individual matter.  I sympathize and hope they get their problem fixed.  I even offer help when able.  IF someone claims that Piezo can't produce a good print....I just post that the system is working for me...working very well indeed...but even that positive encouragement may be taken wrongly by some...that is unfortunate.  

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Julian Thomas 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 7:54 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Julian: To Piezo or Not to Piezo...that is a question.


  Steadman, thanks for the post. I too love the output of piezo - and until I
  started having problems I wouldn't have changed for the world. Like you I've
  spent far too long building up a skills base. But Piezo has a mystique to it
  which gets in the way of logic. It is part of marketing or branding and i
  think needs to be taken carefully.Other inks are available at a fraction of
  the cost that give identical output to what you are used to. Very few people
  can actually comment on inksets - people like Mike, Bernd, etc have used
  Piezo and made comparisons with other inksets - and there are valid
  alternatives. Everything that you claim for Piezo is available elsewhere at
  much cheaper costs without ANY logged problems. If you check the archives of
  piezo list, I used to post similar things to you, then I got clogs,
  greenies, etc etc. For a long time people on th epiezo list who had problems
  were marginalised and dismissed. Now these problems are more widespread and
  I firmly believe that there is a problem with the system. Viscosity is one
  thing that Epson has mentioned, and may be the reason why MIS doesn't get
  this. The green dye dropping out of suspension etc etc Use piezo or whatever
  inkset you choose, but I think much more testing is needed beforeI can
  support the piezo mystique.

  Julian
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:24 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] For Julian: To Piezo or Not to Piezo...that is a
  question.


  > Hello Julian,
  >
  > In answer to your question, no,  I have not seen any MIS VM or FS prints.
  I would like to see Bernd's comparison prints if possible...mostly because I
  like Bernd's subjects and prints.
  >
  > I too think it is good that alternative processes are discussed on this
  forum...regardless of the manufacturer, workflow, inkset, or paper.  That
  sharing of new ideas techniques and products is what will keep the digital
  bw movement good and going forward.
  >
  > Your recent post indicated the cost difference between two inks shipped to
  Spain.  Your decision makes economic sense to you and would to me if I lived
  in Spain.
  >
  > So if that makes good economics for you, why have I not switched to MIS
  inks?
  >
  > Simply put, it is a matter of time and investment and expected results.
  You see, I have already invested in Piezo software and inks, which are
  admittedly more expensive than some of the alternatives.  But, I consider
  the cost of the inks to be incidental and the cost "savings" of using
  another ink such as MIS to be inconsequential for me.  Why?  Simply because
  the "real cost" to me is the time it takes to make a salable print.  By that
  I mean that I don't want to spend any time more than necessary to "adjust
  curves" or fiddle with transfer functions or other means of getting "close"
  to what I want to see.
  >
  > The Piezo system is WYSIWYG or "what you see is what you print:  WYSIWYP"
  in my opinion.  I use a calibrated monitor, and when my image looks good on
  screen, I know that is what I will get from my printer.  I don't think that
  can be said for another system.  So if I were to save 50 cents per print by
  using a cheap ink, I most likely will waste that "savings" by spending more
  time using a system that requires more experimentation and less WYSIWYG.  At
  least that is my economic take on it.  Admittedly, I like to keep my
  darkroom photography and printmaking as simple as possible so I can spend
  more time with clients and more time off on the weekends and evenings. That
  is good economic sense to me...in my situation.
  >
  > Some people may think I am opposed to using anything but Piezo inks.  That
  is not true.  The truth is that I am not opposed at all.  I simply have a
  fondness for a system (Piezo) that I use that works and delivers outstanding
  fine art prints using an inexpensive printer...and in my
  opinion...reasonably and relatively (to Pro lab costs) inexpensive inks that
  I believe are "archival" due to their carbon pigment base.
  >
  > IF at times it seems that I am a strict Piezophile, it is a misconception
  due to the nature of some of my posts.  I simply post the positives as I
  honestly see it.  Most of the posts on this forum regarding Piezo have been
  negative, most often by folks who have not had success with the Piezo system
  (due to any number of factors).  Because these folks have had "real"
  problems with the system, and because they blame the inks for their
  problems, I feel it is only fair to give them and others (especially those
  that may not have used Piezo yet) a more balanced viewpoint...by offering
  the experiences of someone who is getting stunningly beautiful Piezo prints.
  And if I were a newbie to this (which I was, not long ago) I would be
  disappointed in a potential product if all I read on the forum were
  negatives.   In truth, there are many positives.
  >
  > I bought into Piezo for various reasons.  I wanted a simple system with
  software that would work for me...so I did not have to work for it (hope
  that makes sense...put another way I wanted "user-friendly" software).  I
  also wanted paper profiles.  I also wanted carbon pigment inks.  I also
  wanted no dots.  I also wanted a company with good technical support that is
  free and knowledgeable.   I got all of that with Piezo and Inkjetmall.
  >
  > Can other companies provide a good competitive product?  I sure hope so.
  And I wish them the best of luck. And I may buy their products if they can
  provide something that I cannot get elsewhere or with my current system.
  >
  > On every issue above, the Piezo system has exceeded my expectations...and
  I did have high expectations too.   Perhaps I am lucky.  But lest you think
  my use of Piezo is faultless, I can say with all honesty that I have had
  nozzle clogs (I have even written to a forum about them), I have tried
  Windex and Fantastic, I have had a printer shut down  for a few days with
  intermittent nozzle problems.  But I take those events or mishaps in stride.
  What keeps me going is the final result...which more often than not delivers
  prints of outstanding quality.
  >
  > As I wrote in my previous message, I am pleased as punch that I got 12 or
  more 11x14s prints in a row that were "flawless" out of my inexpensive 1160.
  Those prints have already been "sold" and have paid for the printer and the
  inks and my time...several times over.  As a professional photographer, that
  is important.  I depend on these prints for my income.
  >
  > In the end, we all can choose different tools.  What someone else chooses
  to use is of no matter to me.  Where I take exception, is when people make
  claims or assertions that the Piezo system is somehow responsible for
  creating only ugly green prints.  If someone were to see my prints on
  exhibition, they would know that is not true...at least for my use of the
  system.  I get rich deep velvet-like blacks and wonderful skintones with
  great highlights (especially important as I am focused on portraits).
  >
  > If someone does have problems with their CIS or their carts or their
  printer or their paper, I consider that just part of life...and to my
  experience the manufacturers of the CIS (nomorecarts), the ink (Inkjetmall),
  and the papers have all been very good about replacing any product that is
  proven defective...and even some product that has not been truly proven
  defective.    Nevertheless the "problems" must be frustrating to be sure.
  But the experience of the photographers who are having a problem does not
  mean that all systems are bad or deliver poor results.  The facts
  demonstrate that excellent prints can come from a Piezo system...just maybe
  not all systems...and maybe not all photographers who use them.
  >
  > Well this commentary has gotten much longer than I intended.  I hope it
  helps someone.
  >
  > With sincere respect,
  >
  > Steadman
  >
  >
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: Julian Thomas
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:56 AM
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
  >
  >
  >   Steadman, I have to ask, have you seen MIS FS output through the cone
  >   driver? Like Mike K, I think that piezo software is bang on, especially
  for
  >   4 colour printers, but there are problems with the inks for a growing
  number
  >   of people. I hope to be moving to a 7000 soon, and I'll be using the
  piezo
  >   software, but MIS FS inks. One of the things I will be eternally
  thankfull
  >   to this list for is that it has opened up other possibilities beyond
  piezo.
  >   Bernd has just sent me his set of prints of comparisons of Piezo with
  >   various other combinations. FS through the Cone driver is 'different' to
  >   piezo, slightly, but  a slight curves tweak would get the same result.
  >   Smooth tones, dotless highlights, the colour of piezo when piezo is on
  form.
  >   BTW others have said that piezo compresses shadow detail, and I don't
  see
  >   that. A comparison of the 'stair' image and bernd's print show more
  visible
  >   detail in the stairs and a dark chimney area in Bernd's print from
  Piezo,
  >   but this is easily corrected. For 6 colour printers, bernd's print on
  MIS VM
  >   with a no. 3 curve is truly beautiful.
  >
  >   Julian
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
  >   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  >   Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:53 AM
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
  >
  >
  >   > It is too bad you see green with your PiezoBW system and that it is a
  >   disappointment for you.
  >   >
  >   > I just framed (12) 11x14 prints today on a variety of papers all made
  with
  >   PiezoBW inks.  Each one is lovely.  No green at all.  Some of the blacks
  >   must be seen to be believed because of the richness and depth.  On a few
  of
  >   the images, the skin tones "glow" and contrasted with the black velvety
  >   background on a few, the impression is of great texture and depth.
  All of
  >   these prints have been seen by over a dozen people in different lighting
  >   environments and no one sees green at all.  They all comment on the rich
  >   tones of grey and the luminous skin and the velvet black which because
  it is
  >   printed on a matte paper...looks like real velvet...not some plasticky
  RC
  >   surface gloss.
  >   >
  >   > But maybe you just had a little bad luck or a bad printer or bad
  karma.
  >   >
  >   > I say this because when or if you get a Piezo system that works, you
  will
  >   not want to switch.  It can be that good.
  >   >
  >   > Good luck,
  >   >
  >   > Steadman
  >   >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   >   From: djcook50@...
  >   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   >   Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:05 PM
  >   >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
  >   >
  >   >
  >   >   Thanks for the feedback Joe.
  >   >
  >   >   Too bad the piezography system is disappointing.  Do you get the
  >   >   green cast results with all papers you've tried?
  >   >
  >   >   Prior to the piezography system did you have any luck with other
  inks
  >   >   and workflows?
  >   >
  >   >   Dave
  >   >
  >   >
  >   >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Joseph Glasgow
  >   >   <joeglas3@y...> wrote:
  >   >   > --- djcook50@y... wrote:
  >   >   > > I'm interested in hearing from anyone who's found a
  >   >   > > good workflow for
  >   >   > > the original MIS Quadtone inks, specifically using
  >   >   > > the Epson 1200 .>
  >   >   > > Anyone using the Epson 1200 and original MIS
  >   >   > > Quadtones successfully?
  >   >   > > > Also, is there anyone who's made the switch to
  >   >   > > Piezography using the > 1200 with satisfactory
  >   >   > results?  This seems to be
  >   >   > > the direction I'm
  >   >   > > heading.
  >   >   > >
  >   >   > > I'm much more interested in making excellent B&W
  >   >   > > prints than
  >   >   > > continually tweaking and testing.
  >   >   > >
  >   >   > > Thanks,
  >   >   > > David
  >   >   >
  >   >   >      I am working with piezography software and an
  >   >   > Epson 1200 printer. I like the ease of the software
  >   >   > and the excellent tonal range of the prints. But the
  >   >   > ugly green cast of the finished product is
  >   >   > unacceptable. This green cast appears with every paper
  >   >   > that I have tried from the cone tech sample pack.  the
  >   >   > green cast of my prints in no way resembles the color
  >   >   > cast of the free sample print that I received from the
  >   >   > inkjetmall in the mail. I would like to say that all
  >   >   > is well with Piezography but it is not.
  >   >   >
  >   >   >                     joe
  >   >   > >
  >   >   > >
  >   >   >
  >   >   >
  >   >   > __________________________________________________
  >   >   > Do You Yahoo!?
  >   >   > Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
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  >   >
  >   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  >   >               ADVERTISEMENT
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  >   >
  >   >
  >   >
  >   >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
  and
  >   other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >   >
  >   >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >   >
  >   >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
  >   >   - Include your full name with your message.
  >   >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  >   >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
  to
  >   keep them short.
  >   >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
  >   header.
  >   >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
  >   "flames."
  >   >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  >   >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
  various
  >   resources on the homepage.
  >   >
  >   >
  >   >
  >   >
  >   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
  >   >
  >   >
  >   >
  >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >   >
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris, that is what I'm doing: Cone driver with MIS FS inks. I didn't really
say what i wanted to say very clearly in my last email. I think that the
only people who can say X is wonderful, are those peopel who test x,y,z,
etc. Thankfully on this forum there are a lot of people who do that and
share results, otherwise I'd still be staying with Piezo inks just for the
times when they are right. To misquote Karl Popper slightly, 'it only takes
one occurence to show that somwething doesn't work.'

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Hargens" <ldmr@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Julian: To Piezo or Not to Piezo...that is a
question.


> Sounds to me like the middle path is to use the Piezo software and go
> with one of the alternative inksets. Sure, you might have to do some
> tweaking here and there, but you'd retain Piezo's great strength (I
> haven't heard anyone criticize Piezo software, only praise) while
> avoiding some of its problems.
>
> Chris
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > Steadman, thanks for the post. I too love the output of piezo - and
> until I
> > started having problems I wouldn't have changed for the world. Like
> you I've
> > spent far too long building up a skills base. But Piezo has a
> mystique to it
> > which gets in the way of logic. It is part of marketing or branding
> and i
> > think needs to be taken carefully.Other inks are available at a
> fraction of
> > the cost that give identical output to what you are used to. Very
> few people
> > can actually comment on inksets - people like Mike, Bernd, etc have
> used
> > Piezo and made comparisons with other inksets - and there are valid
> > alternatives. Everything that you claim for Piezo is available
> elsewhere at
> > much cheaper costs without ANY logged problems. If you check the
> archives of
> > piezo list, I used to post similar things to you, then I got clogs,
> > greenies, etc etc. For a long time people on th epiezo list who had
> problems
> > were marginalised and dismissed. Now these problems are more
> widespread and
> > I firmly believe that there is a problem with the system. Viscosity
> is one
> > thing that Epson has mentioned, and may be the reason why MIS
> doesn't get
> > this. The green dye dropping out of suspension etc etc Use piezo or
> whatever
> > inkset you choose, but I think much more testing is needed beforeI
> can
> > support the piezo mystique.
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@k...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:24 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] For Julian: To Piezo or Not to Piezo...that
> is a
> > question.
> >
> >
> > > Hello Julian,
> > >
> > > In answer to your question, no,  I have not seen any MIS VM or FS
> prints.
> > I would like to see Bernd's comparison prints if possible...mostly
> because I
> > like Bernd's subjects and prints.
> > >
> > > I too think it is good that alternative processes are discussed
> on this
> > forum...regardless of the manufacturer, workflow, inkset, or
> paper.  That
> > sharing of new ideas techniques and products is what will keep the
> digital
> > bw movement good and going forward.
> > >
> > > Your recent post indicated the cost difference between two inks
> shipped to
> > Spain.  Your decision makes economic sense to you and would to me
> if I lived
> > in Spain.
> > >
> > > So if that makes good economics for you, why have I not switched
> to MIS
> > inks?
> > >
> > > Simply put, it is a matter of time and investment and expected
> results.
> > You see, I have already invested in Piezo software and inks, which
> are
> > admittedly more expensive than some of the alternatives.  But, I
> consider
> > the cost of the inks to be incidental and the cost "savings" of
> using
> > another ink such as MIS to be inconsequential for me.  Why?  Simply
> because
> > the "real cost" to me is the time it takes to make a salable
> print.  By that
> > I mean that I don't want to spend any time more than necessary
> to "adjust
> > curves" or fiddle with transfer functions or other means of
> getting "close"
> > to what I want to see.
> > >
> > > The Piezo system is WYSIWYG or "what you see is what you print:
> WYSIWYP"
> > in my opinion.  I use a calibrated monitor, and when my image looks
> good on
> > screen, I know that is what I will get from my printer.  I don't
> think that
> > can be said for another system.  So if I were to save 50 cents per
> print by
> > using a cheap ink, I most likely will waste that "savings" by
> spending more
> > time using a system that requires more experimentation and less
> WYSIWYG.  At
> > least that is my economic take on it.  Admittedly, I like to keep my
> > darkroom photography and printmaking as simple as possible so I can
> spend
> > more time with clients and more time off on the weekends and
> evenings. That
> > is good economic sense to me...in my situation.
> > >
> > > Some people may think I am opposed to using anything but Piezo
> inks.  That
> > is not true.  The truth is that I am not opposed at all.  I simply
> have a
> > fondness for a system (Piezo) that I use that works and delivers
> outstanding
> > fine art prints using an inexpensive printer...and in my
> > opinion...reasonably and relatively (to Pro lab costs) inexpensive
> inks that
> > I believe are "archival" due to their carbon pigment base.
> > >
> > > IF at times it seems that I am a strict Piezophile, it is a
> misconception
> > due to the nature of some of my posts.  I simply post the positives
> as I
> > honestly see it.  Most of the posts on this forum regarding Piezo
> have been
> > negative, most often by folks who have not had success with the
> Piezo system
> > (due to any number of factors).  Because these folks have had "real"
> > problems with the system, and because they blame the inks for their
> > problems, I feel it is only fair to give them and others
> (especially those
> > that may not have used Piezo yet) a more balanced viewpoint...by
> offering
> > the experiences of someone who is getting stunningly beautiful
> Piezo prints.
> > And if I were a newbie to this (which I was, not long ago) I would
> be
> > disappointed in a potential product if all I read on the forum were
> > negatives.   In truth, there are many positives.
> > >
> > > I bought into Piezo for various reasons.  I wanted a simple
> system with
> > software that would work for me...so I did not have to work for it
> (hope
> > that makes sense...put another way I wanted "user-friendly"
> software).  I
> > also wanted paper profiles.  I also wanted carbon pigment inks.  I
> also
> > wanted no dots.  I also wanted a company with good technical
> support that is
> > free and knowledgeable.   I got all of that with Piezo and
> Inkjetmall.
> > >
> > > Can other companies provide a good competitive product?  I sure
> hope so.
> > And I wish them the best of luck. And I may buy their products if
> they can
> > provide something that I cannot get elsewhere or with my current
> system.
> > >
> > > On every issue above, the Piezo system has exceeded my
> expectations...and
> > I did have high expectations too.   Perhaps I am lucky.  But lest
> you think
> > my use of Piezo is faultless, I can say with all honesty that I
> have had
> > nozzle clogs (I have even written to a forum about them), I have
> tried
> > Windex and Fantastic, I have had a printer shut down  for a few
> days with
> > intermittent nozzle problems.  But I take those events or mishaps
> in stride.
> > What keeps me going is the final result...which more often than not
> delivers
> > prints of outstanding quality.
> > >
> > > As I wrote in my previous message, I am pleased as punch that I
> got 12 or
> > more 11x14s prints in a row that were "flawless" out of my
> inexpensive 1160.
> > Those prints have already been "sold" and have paid for the printer
> and the
> > inks and my time...several times over.  As a professional
> photographer, that
> > is important.  I depend on these prints for my income.
> > >
> > > In the end, we all can choose different tools.  What someone else
> chooses
> > to use is of no matter to me.  Where I take exception, is when
> people make
> > claims or assertions that the Piezo system is somehow responsible
> for
> > creating only ugly green prints.  If someone were to see my prints
> on
> > exhibition, they would know that is not true...at least for my use
> of the
> > system.  I get rich deep velvet-like blacks and wonderful skintones
> with
> > great highlights (especially important as I am focused on
> portraits).
> > >
> > > If someone does have problems with their CIS or their carts or
> their
> > printer or their paper, I consider that just part of life...and to
> my
> > experience the manufacturers of the CIS (nomorecarts), the ink
> (Inkjetmall),
> > and the papers have all been very good about replacing any product
> that is
> > proven defective...and even some product that has not been truly
> proven
> > defective.    Nevertheless the "problems" must be frustrating to be
> sure.
> > But the experience of the photographers who are having a problem
> does not
> > mean that all systems are bad or deliver poor results.  The facts
> > demonstrate that excellent prints can come from a Piezo
> system...just maybe
> > not all systems...and maybe not all photographers who use them.
> > >
> > > Well this commentary has gotten much longer than I intended.  I
> hope it
> > helps someone.
> > >
> > > With sincere respect,
> > >
> > > Steadman
> > >
> > >
> > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > >   From: Julian Thomas
> > >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > >   Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:56 AM
> > >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
> > >
> > >
> > >   Steadman, I have to ask, have you seen MIS FS output through
> the cone
> > >   driver? Like Mike K, I think that piezo software is bang on,
> especially
> > for
> > >   4 colour printers, but there are problems with the inks for a
> growing
> > number
> > >   of people. I hope to be moving to a 7000 soon, and I'll be
> using the
> > piezo
> > >   software, but MIS FS inks. One of the things I will be eternally
> > thankfull
> > >   to this list for is that it has opened up other possibilities
> beyond
> > piezo.
> > >   Bernd has just sent me his set of prints of comparisons of
> Piezo with
> > >   various other combinations. FS through the Cone driver
> is 'different' to
> > >   piezo, slightly, but  a slight curves tweak would get the same
> result.
> > >   Smooth tones, dotless highlights, the colour of piezo when
> piezo is on
> > form.
> > >   BTW others have said that piezo compresses shadow detail, and I
> don't
> > see
> > >   that. A comparison of the 'stair' image and bernd's print show
> more
> > visible
> > >   detail in the stairs and a dark chimney area in Bernd's print
> from
> > Piezo,
> > >   but this is easily corrected. For 6 colour printers, bernd's
> print on
> > MIS VM
> > >   with a no. 3 curve is truly beautiful.
> > >
> > >   Julian
> > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > >   From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@k...>
> > >   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > >   Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:53 AM
> > >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
> > >
> > >
> > >   > It is too bad you see green with your PiezoBW system and that
> it is a
> > >   disappointment for you.
> > >   >
> > >   > I just framed (12) 11x14 prints today on a variety of papers
> all made
> > with
> > >   PiezoBW inks.  Each one is lovely.  No green at all.  Some of
> the blacks
> > >   must be seen to be believed because of the richness and depth.
> On a few
> > of
> > >   the images, the skin tones "glow" and contrasted with the black
> velvety
> > >   background on a few, the impression is of great texture and
> depth.
> > All of
> > >   these prints have been seen by over a dozen people in different
> lighting
> > >   environments and no one sees green at all.  They all comment on
> the rich
> > >   tones of grey and the luminous skin and the velvet black which
> because
> > it is
> > >   printed on a matte paper...looks like real velvet...not some
> plasticky
> > RC
> > >   surface gloss.
> > >   >
> > >   > But maybe you just had a little bad luck or a bad printer or
> bad
> > karma.
> > >   >
> > >   > I say this because when or if you get a Piezo system that
> works, you
> > will
> > >   not want to switch.  It can be that good.
> > >   >
> > >   > Good luck,
> > >   >
> > >   > Steadman
> > >   >   ----- Original Message -----
> > >   >   From: djcook50@y...
> > >   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > >   >   Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:05 PM
> > >   >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
> > >   >
> > >   >
> > >   >   Thanks for the feedback Joe.
> > >   >
> > >   >   Too bad the piezography system is disappointing.  Do you
> get the
> > >   >   green cast results with all papers you've tried?
> > >   >
> > >   >   Prior to the piezography system did you have any luck with
> other
> > inks
> > >   >   and workflows?
> > >   >
> > >   >   Dave
> > >   >
> > >   >
> > >   >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Joseph Glasgow
> > >   >   <joeglas3@y...> wrote:
> > >   >   > --- djcook50@y... wrote:
> > >   >   > > I'm interested in hearing from anyone who's found a
> > >   >   > > good workflow for
> > >   >   > > the original MIS Quadtone inks, specifically using
> > >   >   > > the Epson 1200 .>
> > >   >   > > Anyone using the Epson 1200 and original MIS
> > >   >   > > Quadtones successfully?
> > >   >   > > > Also, is there anyone who's made the switch to
> > >   >   > > Piezography using the > 1200 with satisfactory
> > >   >   > results?  This seems to be
> > >   >   > > the direction I'm
> > >   >   > > heading.
> > >   >   > >
> > >   >   > > I'm much more interested in making excellent B&W
> > >   >   > > prints than
> > >   >   > > continually tweaking and testing.
> > >   >   > >
> > >   >   > > Thanks,
> > >   >   > > David
> > >   >   >
> > >   >   >      I am working with piezography software and an
> > >   >   > Epson 1200 printer. I like the ease of the software
> > >   >   > and the excellent tonal range of the prints. But the
> > >   >   > ugly green cast of the finished product is
> > >   >   > unacceptable. This green cast appears with every paper
> > >   >   > that I have tried from the cone tech sample pack.  the
> > >   >   > green cast of my prints in no way resembles the color
> > >   >   > cast of the free sample print that I received from the
> > >   >   > inkjetmall in the mail. I would like to say that all
> > >   >   > is well with Piezography but it is not.
> > >   >   >
> > >   >   >                     joe
> > >   >   > >
> > >   >   > >
> > >   >   >
> > >   >   >
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Julian,

At the current time I am running MIS FS inks and the PiezoBW2Pro RIP 
with the Epson 7000 and loving it. I find that the images look 
identical except that I get a bit more shadow detail and the tone is 
a bit more neutral.

Mike

Having seen a piezo 7000 version of your man with the bags - if you made the
switch, I thought I'd be ok! Those of you who saw this in the print
exchange - I have a 24" version and it is stunning. I 'm tempted to set the
FS up now but I have prints to make for Nij, and if I start playing, I'll
never get them done! (hence a large number of email - I get so bored waiting
for prints!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael J. Kravit" <mkravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Julian: To Piezo or Not to Piezo...that is a
question.


> Julian,
>
> At the current time I am running MIS FS inks and the PiezoBW2Pro RIP
> with the Epson 7000 and loving it. I find that the images look
> identical except that I get a bit more shadow detail and the tone is
> a bit more neutral.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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Mike-

Julians reply hints at my interest in both Piezo and a 7000.

I love Piezo because it prints so great and so quickly... I hate 
Piezo because I spend so much time fixing clogs... I'm getting 
psychotic. So I ran the Piezo cleaning carts and left them in to soak 
for a week while I wait for some MIS FS carts for my 1160.

Just so I don't go off the deep end and buy a 7000 just for speed and 
then not get it... would you mind posting the estimated time for 
printing 8.5x11, 11x17 and 13x19? A guess is fine... Can to comment 
on the difference in using the Epson driver and the Piezo? 

This whole BW movement is taking me back to the 60s and making 
photography exciting again... Digital did it a while back and now 
this is really turning me on again... 

Any tips on favorite papers with FS vs. Piezo?

FWIW, I have another printer dedicated to Lyson Small Gamut for toned 
prints... It's pretty good, too, but the lack of WYSIWYP (thanks for 
the new acronym, Steadman) makes it a bit of a drag... Not only is 
the output a little unpredictable, but the wait to see is 3x longer 
for me with the Epson driver vs. the Piezo.

Thanks to all you folks for the comments... I'm learning more here 
than anywhere else ... 

Toc
Tom O'Connell
tomoc@...


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit" 
<mkravit@k...> wrote:
> Julian,
> 
> At the current time I am running MIS FS inks and the PiezoBW2Pro 
RIP 
> with the Epson 7000 and loving it. I find that the images look 
> identical except that I get a bit more shadow detail and the tone 
is 

> a bit more neutral.
> 
> Mike

Photorag in either weight.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: <tomoc@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Julian: To Piezo or Not to Piezo...that is a
question.


> Mike-
>
> Julians reply hints at my interest in both Piezo and a 7000.
>
> I love Piezo because it prints so great and so quickly... I hate
> Piezo because I spend so much time fixing clogs... I'm getting
> psychotic. So I ran the Piezo cleaning carts and left them in to soak
> for a week while I wait for some MIS FS carts for my 1160.
>
> Just so I don't go off the deep end and buy a 7000 just for speed and
> then not get it... would you mind posting the estimated time for
> printing 8.5x11, 11x17 and 13x19? A guess is fine... Can to comment
> on the difference in using the Epson driver and the Piezo?
>
> This whole BW movement is taking me back to the 60s and making
> photography exciting again... Digital did it a while back and now
> this is really turning me on again...
>
> Any tips on favorite papers with FS vs. Piezo?
>
> FWIW, I have another printer dedicated to Lyson Small Gamut for toned
> prints... It's pretty good, too, but the lack of WYSIWYP (thanks for
> the new acronym, Steadman) makes it a bit of a drag... Not only is
> the output a little unpredictable, but the wait to see is 3x longer
> for me with the Epson driver vs. the Piezo.
>
> Thanks to all you folks for the comments... I'm learning more here
> than anywhere else ...
>
> Toc
> Tom O'Connell
> tomoc@...
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit"
> <mkravit@k...> wrote:
> > Julian,
> >
> > At the current time I am running MIS FS inks and the PiezoBW2Pro
> RIP
> > with the Epson 7000 and loving it. I find that the images look
> > identical except that I get a bit more shadow detail and the tone
> is
> > a bit more neutral.
> >
> > Mike
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Tom O'Connell wrote:
<<
FWIW, I have another printer dedicated to Lyson Small Gamut for toned
prints... It's pretty good, too, but the lack of WYSIWYP (thanks for
the new acronym, Steadman) makes it a bit of a drag... Not only is
the output a little unpredictable, but the wait to see is 3x longer
for me with the Epson driver vs. the Piezo.
>>
I know folk who have had custom profiles made for their SG/printer/paper
combination. This tames the beast.

Tim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Photorag in either weight.
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <tomoc@y...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Julian: To Piezo or Not to 
Piezo...that is a
> question.
> 
> 
> > Mike-
> >
> > Julians reply hints at my interest in both Piezo and a 7000.

Both are truly great systems. Many of the folks here are pushing the 
envelope with repect to making printers, inks, and papers do what 
they want and or need. The Piezo drivers are excellent. Ink Jet Mall 
has really spent a lot of time and money developing a system that 
allows the photographer to spend more time making images and less 
time calibrating the inks and curves.

Paul Roarks curves allow a bit more flexibility and of course afford 
the photographer the opportunity to adjust the tone of his prints as 
he desires.

Paul is very dedicated and supportive to those that use his system. 
Ink Jet Mall is known as well for their excellent dedication and 
customer service. They are deeply involved with their customers and 
go above and beyond in their quest to resolve problems.

> > I love Piezo because it prints so great and so quickly... I hate
> > Piezo because I spend so much time fixing clogs... I'm getting
> > psychotic. So I ran the Piezo cleaning carts and left them in to 
> > soak for a week while I wait for some MIS FS carts for my 1160.

Clogs are the bane of society! ;-)
I think we all just have to learn to work with them as I don't see 
them going away in th enear future.

> > Just so I don't go off the deep end and buy a 7000 just for speed 
> > and then not get it... would you mind posting the estimated time 
> > for printing 8.5x11, 11x17 and 13x19? A guess is fine... 

I printed a 9x12 and it took 6 minutes on the 7000. I think you 
should be able to guestimate what the other times will be.

> > This whole BW movement is taking me back to the 60s and making
> > photography exciting again... Digital did it a while back and now
> > this is really turning me on again...

I guess if the end result is that we get out and make pictures, it 
will be worth the investment in time and money.

> > Any tips on favorite papers with FS vs. Piezo?

I like the Hahnemuhle, BrughtCube, ane Legion Photo Matte papers. 
Steadman has been a great resource for paper testing and 
recommendations.

Let us know how you make out.

Mike

Mike, what Brightcube papers do you use?

julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael J. Kravit" <mkravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Julian: To Piezo or Not to Piezo...that is a
question.


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > Photorag in either weight.
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <tomoc@y...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:59 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] For Julian: To Piezo or Not to
> Piezo...that is a
> > question.
> >
> >
> > > Mike-
> > >
> > > Julians reply hints at my interest in both Piezo and a 7000.
>
> Both are truly great systems. Many of the folks here are pushing the
> envelope with repect to making printers, inks, and papers do what
> they want and or need. The Piezo drivers are excellent. Ink Jet Mall
> has really spent a lot of time and money developing a system that
> allows the photographer to spend more time making images and less
> time calibrating the inks and curves.
>
> Paul Roarks curves allow a bit more flexibility and of course afford
> the photographer the opportunity to adjust the tone of his prints as
> he desires.
>
> Paul is very dedicated and supportive to those that use his system.
> Ink Jet Mall is known as well for their excellent dedication and
> customer service. They are deeply involved with their customers and
> go above and beyond in their quest to resolve problems.
>
> > > I love Piezo because it prints so great and so quickly... I hate
> > > Piezo because I spend so much time fixing clogs... I'm getting
> > > psychotic. So I ran the Piezo cleaning carts and left them in to
> > > soak for a week while I wait for some MIS FS carts for my 1160.
>
> Clogs are the bane of society! ;-)
> I think we all just have to learn to work with them as I don't see
> them going away in th enear future.
>
> > > Just so I don't go off the deep end and buy a 7000 just for speed
> > > and then not get it... would you mind posting the estimated time
> > > for printing 8.5x11, 11x17 and 13x19? A guess is fine...
>
> I printed a 9x12 and it took 6 minutes on the 7000. I think you
> should be able to guestimate what the other times will be.
>
> > > This whole BW movement is taking me back to the 60s and making
> > > photography exciting again... Digital did it a while back and now
> > > this is really turning me on again...
>
> I guess if the end result is that we get out and make pictures, it
> will be worth the investment in time and money.
>
> > > Any tips on favorite papers with FS vs. Piezo?
>
> I like the Hahnemuhle, BrughtCube, ane Legion Photo Matte papers.
> Steadman has been a great resource for paper testing and
> recommendations.
>
> Let us know how you make out.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Tim-

After I posted this, I read an email announcing that Lyson has posted 
ICC profiles for the 1160 and fine art papers and glossy papers... 
It's on their website along with instructions for using the profiles 
in conjunction with Photoshop 6.0 proof preview feature to see a 
pretty close WYSIWYP function.

This looks like a decent solution. Piezo for warm prints, Lyson for 
variable...

Tom O'Connell

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tim Mimpriss" 
<tim.mimpriss@t...> wrote:
> Tom O'Connell wrote:
> <<
> FWIW, I have another printer dedicated to Lyson Small Gamut for 
toned
> prints... It's pretty good, too, but the lack of WYSIWYP (thanks for
> the new acronym, Steadman) makes it a bit of a drag... Not only is
> the output a little unpredictable, but the wait to see is 3x longer
> for me with the Epson driver vs. the Piezo.
> >>
> I know folk who have had custom profiles made for their 
SG/printer/paper

> combination. This tames the beast.
> 
> Tim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Mike, what Brightcube papers do you use?

Julian,

I like BrightCube Eclipse Satine and Velvet.

Mike