Digital BW, The Print

Sounds to me like the middle path is to use the Piezo software and go 
with one of the alternative inksets. Sure, you might have to do some 
tweaking here and there, but you'd retain Piezo's great strength (I 
haven't heard anyone criticize Piezo software, only praise) while 
avoiding some of its problems. 

Chris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Steadman, thanks for the post. I too love the output of piezo - and 
until I
> started having problems I wouldn't have changed for the world. Like 
you I've
> spent far too long building up a skills base. But Piezo has a 
mystique to it
> which gets in the way of logic. It is part of marketing or branding 
and i
> think needs to be taken carefully.Other inks are available at a 
fraction of
> the cost that give identical output to what you are used to. Very 
few people
> can actually comment on inksets - people like Mike, Bernd, etc have 
used
> Piezo and made comparisons with other inksets - and there are valid
> alternatives. Everything that you claim for Piezo is available 
elsewhere at
> much cheaper costs without ANY logged problems. If you check the 
archives of
> piezo list, I used to post similar things to you, then I got clogs,
> greenies, etc etc. For a long time people on th epiezo list who had 
problems
> were marginalised and dismissed. Now these problems are more 
widespread and
> I firmly believe that there is a problem with the system. Viscosity 
is one
> thing that Epson has mentioned, and may be the reason why MIS 
doesn't get
> this. The green dye dropping out of suspension etc etc Use piezo or 
whatever
> inkset you choose, but I think much more testing is needed beforeI 
can
> support the piezo mystique.
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@k...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:24 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] For Julian: To Piezo or Not to Piezo...that 
is a
> question.
> 
> 
> > Hello Julian,
> >
> > In answer to your question, no,  I have not seen any MIS VM or FS 
prints.
> I would like to see Bernd's comparison prints if possible...mostly 
because I
> like Bernd's subjects and prints.
> >
> > I too think it is good that alternative processes are discussed 
on this
> forum...regardless of the manufacturer, workflow, inkset, or 
paper.  That
> sharing of new ideas techniques and products is what will keep the 
digital
> bw movement good and going forward.
> >
> > Your recent post indicated the cost difference between two inks 
shipped to
> Spain.  Your decision makes economic sense to you and would to me 
if I lived
> in Spain.
> >
> > So if that makes good economics for you, why have I not switched 
to MIS
> inks?
> >
> > Simply put, it is a matter of time and investment and expected 
results.
> You see, I have already invested in Piezo software and inks, which 
are
> admittedly more expensive than some of the alternatives.  But, I 
consider
> the cost of the inks to be incidental and the cost "savings" of 
using
> another ink such as MIS to be inconsequential for me.  Why?  Simply 
because
> the "real cost" to me is the time it takes to make a salable 
print.  By that
> I mean that I don't want to spend any time more than necessary 
to "adjust
> curves" or fiddle with transfer functions or other means of 
getting "close"
> to what I want to see.
> >
> > The Piezo system is WYSIWYG or "what you see is what you print:  
WYSIWYP"
> in my opinion.  I use a calibrated monitor, and when my image looks 
good on
> screen, I know that is what I will get from my printer.  I don't 
think that
> can be said for another system.  So if I were to save 50 cents per 
print by
> using a cheap ink, I most likely will waste that "savings" by 
spending more
> time using a system that requires more experimentation and less 
WYSIWYG.  At
> least that is my economic take on it.  Admittedly, I like to keep my
> darkroom photography and printmaking as simple as possible so I can 
spend
> more time with clients and more time off on the weekends and 
evenings. That
> is good economic sense to me...in my situation.
> >
> > Some people may think I am opposed to using anything but Piezo 
inks.  That
> is not true.  The truth is that I am not opposed at all.  I simply 
have a
> fondness for a system (Piezo) that I use that works and delivers 
outstanding
> fine art prints using an inexpensive printer...and in my
> opinion...reasonably and relatively (to Pro lab costs) inexpensive 
inks that
> I believe are "archival" due to their carbon pigment base.
> >
> > IF at times it seems that I am a strict Piezophile, it is a 
misconception
> due to the nature of some of my posts.  I simply post the positives 
as I
> honestly see it.  Most of the posts on this forum regarding Piezo 
have been
> negative, most often by folks who have not had success with the 
Piezo system
> (due to any number of factors).  Because these folks have had "real"
> problems with the system, and because they blame the inks for their
> problems, I feel it is only fair to give them and others 
(especially those
> that may not have used Piezo yet) a more balanced viewpoint...by 
offering
> the experiences of someone who is getting stunningly beautiful 
Piezo prints.
> And if I were a newbie to this (which I was, not long ago) I would 
be
> disappointed in a potential product if all I read on the forum were
> negatives.   In truth, there are many positives.
> >
> > I bought into Piezo for various reasons.  I wanted a simple 
system with
> software that would work for me...so I did not have to work for it 
(hope
> that makes sense...put another way I wanted "user-friendly" 
software).  I
> also wanted paper profiles.  I also wanted carbon pigment inks.  I 
also
> wanted no dots.  I also wanted a company with good technical 
support that is
> free and knowledgeable.   I got all of that with Piezo and 
Inkjetmall.
> >
> > Can other companies provide a good competitive product?  I sure 
hope so.
> And I wish them the best of luck. And I may buy their products if 
they can
> provide something that I cannot get elsewhere or with my current 
system.
> >
> > On every issue above, the Piezo system has exceeded my 
expectations...and
> I did have high expectations too.   Perhaps I am lucky.  But lest 
you think
> my use of Piezo is faultless, I can say with all honesty that I 
have had
> nozzle clogs (I have even written to a forum about them), I have 
tried
> Windex and Fantastic, I have had a printer shut down  for a few 
days with
> intermittent nozzle problems.  But I take those events or mishaps 
in stride.
> What keeps me going is the final result...which more often than not 
delivers
> prints of outstanding quality.
> >
> > As I wrote in my previous message, I am pleased as punch that I 
got 12 or
> more 11x14s prints in a row that were "flawless" out of my 
inexpensive 1160.
> Those prints have already been "sold" and have paid for the printer 
and the
> inks and my time...several times over.  As a professional 
photographer, that
> is important.  I depend on these prints for my income.
> >
> > In the end, we all can choose different tools.  What someone else 
chooses
> to use is of no matter to me.  Where I take exception, is when 
people make
> claims or assertions that the Piezo system is somehow responsible 
for
> creating only ugly green prints.  If someone were to see my prints 
on
> exhibition, they would know that is not true...at least for my use 
of the
> system.  I get rich deep velvet-like blacks and wonderful skintones 
with
> great highlights (especially important as I am focused on 
portraits).
> >
> > If someone does have problems with their CIS or their carts or 
their
> printer or their paper, I consider that just part of life...and to 
my
> experience the manufacturers of the CIS (nomorecarts), the ink 
(Inkjetmall),
> and the papers have all been very good about replacing any product 
that is
> proven defective...and even some product that has not been truly 
proven
> defective.    Nevertheless the "problems" must be frustrating to be 
sure.
> But the experience of the photographers who are having a problem 
does not
> mean that all systems are bad or deliver poor results.  The facts
> demonstrate that excellent prints can come from a Piezo 
system...just maybe
> not all systems...and maybe not all photographers who use them.
> >
> > Well this commentary has gotten much longer than I intended.  I 
hope it
> helps someone.
> >
> > With sincere respect,
> >
> > Steadman
> >
> >
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: Julian Thomas
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> >   Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:56 AM
> >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
> >
> >
> >   Steadman, I have to ask, have you seen MIS FS output through 
the cone
> >   driver? Like Mike K, I think that piezo software is bang on, 
especially
> for
> >   4 colour printers, but there are problems with the inks for a 
growing
> number
> >   of people. I hope to be moving to a 7000 soon, and I'll be 
using the
> piezo
> >   software, but MIS FS inks. One of the things I will be eternally
> thankfull
> >   to this list for is that it has opened up other possibilities 
beyond
> piezo.
> >   Bernd has just sent me his set of prints of comparisons of 
Piezo with
> >   various other combinations. FS through the Cone driver 
is 'different' to
> >   piezo, slightly, but  a slight curves tweak would get the same 
result.
> >   Smooth tones, dotless highlights, the colour of piezo when 
piezo is on
> form.
> >   BTW others have said that piezo compresses shadow detail, and I 
don't
> see
> >   that. A comparison of the 'stair' image and bernd's print show 
more
> visible
> >   detail in the stairs and a dark chimney area in Bernd's print 
from
> Piezo,
> >   but this is easily corrected. For 6 colour printers, bernd's 
print on
> MIS VM
> >   with a no. 3 curve is truly beautiful.
> >
> >   Julian
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@k...>
> >   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> >   Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:53 AM
> >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
> >
> >
> >   > It is too bad you see green with your PiezoBW system and that 
it is a
> >   disappointment for you.
> >   >
> >   > I just framed (12) 11x14 prints today on a variety of papers 
all made
> with
> >   PiezoBW inks.  Each one is lovely.  No green at all.  Some of 
the blacks
> >   must be seen to be believed because of the richness and depth.  
On a few
> of
> >   the images, the skin tones "glow" and contrasted with the black 
velvety
> >   background on a few, the impression is of great texture and 
depth.
> All of
> >   these prints have been seen by over a dozen people in different 
lighting
> >   environments and no one sees green at all.  They all comment on 
the rich
> >   tones of grey and the luminous skin and the velvet black which 
because
> it is
> >   printed on a matte paper...looks like real velvet...not some 
plasticky
> RC
> >   surface gloss.
> >   >
> >   > But maybe you just had a little bad luck or a bad printer or 
bad
> karma.
> >   >
> >   > I say this because when or if you get a Piezo system that 
works, you
> will
> >   not want to switch.  It can be that good.
> >   >
> >   > Good luck,
> >   >
> >   > Steadman
> >   >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   >   From: djcook50@y...
> >   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> >   >   Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:05 PM
> >   >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Back to basics
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >   Thanks for the feedback Joe.
> >   >
> >   >   Too bad the piezography system is disappointing.  Do you 
get the
> >   >   green cast results with all papers you've tried?
> >   >
> >   >   Prior to the piezography system did you have any luck with 
other
> inks
> >   >   and workflows?
> >   >
> >   >   Dave
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Joseph Glasgow
> >   >   <joeglas3@y...> wrote:
> >   >   > --- djcook50@y... wrote:
> >   >   > > I'm interested in hearing from anyone who's found a
> >   >   > > good workflow for
> >   >   > > the original MIS Quadtone inks, specifically using
> >   >   > > the Epson 1200 .>
> >   >   > > Anyone using the Epson 1200 and original MIS
> >   >   > > Quadtones successfully?
> >   >   > > > Also, is there anyone who's made the switch to
> >   >   > > Piezography using the > 1200 with satisfactory
> >   >   > results?  This seems to be
> >   >   > > the direction I'm
> >   >   > > heading.
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > > I'm much more interested in making excellent B&W
> >   >   > > prints than
> >   >   > > continually tweaking and testing.
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > > Thanks,
> >   >   > > David
> >   >   >
> >   >   >      I am working with piezography software and an
> >   >   > Epson 1200 printer. I like the ease of the software
> >   >   > and the excellent tonal range of the prints. But the
> >   >   > ugly green cast of the finished product is
> >   >   > unacceptable. This green cast appears with every paper
> >   >   > that I have tried from the cone tech sample pack.  the
> >   >   > green cast of my prints in no way resembles the color
> >   >   > cast of the free sample print that I received from the
> >   >   > inkjetmall in the mail. I would like to say that all
> >   >   > is well with Piezography but it is not.
> >   >   >
> >   >   >                     joe
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > >
> >   >   >
> >   >   >
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