Digital BW, The Print

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum and have already asked this question on
Photo.net without any solution (Bob Michaels did contribute -
Thanks)so I hope someone here can help. I am relatively experienced
with digital input/output and am running an Epson 2100 printer with
CIS from MIS using their Ultrachrome inks with Eboni black. Normally I
print colour onto Epson Archival Matte (Enhanced Matte in the US)
using either the standard Epson profile or my custom (Cathy's profile)
both of which are nearly identical and very good. 

Having read Clayton Jones's article on BO printing I decided that was
my way to pure B&W on the 2100. My resulting prints are very slightly
magenta/blue toned! Examining with a loupe I can see cyan and magenta
(maybe LC and LM - cant be sure) being laid down along with the black
hence the tone. What is going on?

I know the Epson UK driver is different from the US Epson 2200 but
surely black only printing is black only. Why am I getting colour as
well? I tried Epsons UK support but all I got was "select printer
properties, choose black only radio button etc etc" - oh please! no
help at all.

I like the simplicity of the BO print but I can't seem to get it. All
help would be very much appreciated.

The 2100 driver uses all inks when the PK cartridge is detected (known
problem).  How is your black cartridge chipped?  My bet is it is PK chipped.

> From: hammerschmidtmark <finepics@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 22:36:35 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] BO Printing - not possible on Epson 2100!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I am new to this forum and have already asked this question on
> Photo.net without any solution (Bob Michaels did contribute -
> Thanks)so I hope someone here can help. I am relatively experienced
> with digital input/output and am running an Epson 2100 printer with
> CIS from MIS using their Ultrachrome inks with Eboni black. Normally I
> print colour onto Epson Archival Matte (Enhanced Matte in the US)
> using either the standard Epson profile or my custom (Cathy's profile)
> both of which are nearly identical and very good.
> 
> Having read Clayton Jones's article on BO printing I decided that was
> my way to pure B&W on the 2100. My resulting prints are very slightly
> magenta/blue toned! Examining with a loupe I can see cyan and magenta
> (maybe LC and LM - cant be sure) being laid down along with the black
> hence the tone. What is going on?
> 
> I know the Epson UK driver is different from the US Epson 2200 but
> surely black only printing is black only. Why am I getting colour as
> well? I tried Epsons UK support but all I got was "select printer
> properties, choose black only radio button etc etc" - oh please! no
> help at all.
> 
> I like the simplicity of the BO print but I can't seem to get it. All
> help would be very much appreciated.
> 
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> The 2100 driver uses all inks when the PK cartridge is detected (known
> problem).  How is your black cartridge chipped?  My bet is it is PK
chipped.

Hi Steve,

At last, that could well be the problem. I have just checked the
cartridge info and it sure is a PK. So the solution is to fit an MK
cartridge (or at least the chip)? I was not aware this was a known
issue and MIS did not mention it when I spoke to them. I think you
have just solved hours and hours of frustration - many thanks.

MIS would not be aware of it.  It is a 2100 driver problem.  Call Epson UK
support and complain (I have and they say they are looking into it.)  Just
ask MIS to send you an MK chip.

> From: hammerschmidtmark <finepics@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 00:23:51 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] BO Printing - not possible on Epson 2100!
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> The 2100 driver uses all inks when the PK cartridge is detected (known
>> problem).  How is your black cartridge chipped?  My bet is it is PK
> chipped.
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> At last, that could well be the problem. I have just checked the
> cartridge info and it sure is a PK. So the solution is to fit an MK
> cartridge (or at least the chip)? I was not aware this was a known
> issue and MIS did not mention it when I spoke to them. I think you
> have just solved hours and hours of frustration - many thanks.
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> MIS would not be aware of it.  It is a 2100 driver problem.  Call
Epson UK
> support and complain (I have and they say they are looking into it.)
 Just
> ask MIS to send you an MK chip.
> 
> 
Thanks very much indeed. How on earth did you manage to even resolve
that, trial and error?

I believe Daniel Staver noted it first and posted it in this forum a year or
so ago.

> From: hammerschmidtmark <finepics@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 00:37:38 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] BO Printing - not possible on Epson 2100!
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> MIS would not be aware of it.  It is a 2100 driver problem.  Call
> Epson UK
>> support and complain (I have and they say they are looking into it.)
>  Just
>> ask MIS to send you an MK chip.
>> 
>> 
> Thanks very much indeed. How on earth did you manage to even resolve
> that, trial and error?

It's also possible to download and install the 2200 driver from the
Epson US website. It won't auto-detect the 2100 printer, but if you
continue installation anyway and make sure to select the right port in 
the driver properties it will work fine. That will allow you to print BO 
with the PK cartridge.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Staver
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> It's also possible to download and install the 2200 driver from the
> Epson US website. It won't auto-detect the 2100 printer, but if you
> continue installation anyway and make sure to select the right port
in 
> the driver properties it will work fine. That will allow you to
print BO 
> with the PK cartridge.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

Hi Daniel,

Just downloaded the Epson 2200 driver. Is it worth uninstalling the
2100 driver or can I just leave as is? A big thanks to everyone who
took the time to answer this original question, I am extremely
grateful.

Just leave the 2100 driver as is. I had both drivers installed for the 
longest time without any problems.

You might want to try the MIS PKN ink if you're interested in BO 
printing with PK ink. It's much more neutral than the Epson ink. Looks 
really good.

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/roarkslab.html

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

> Just downloaded the Epson 2200 driver. Is it worth uninstalling the
> 2100 driver or can I just leave as is? A big thanks to everyone who
> took the time to answer this original question, I am extremely
> grateful.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Staver
<daniel@p...> wrote:

> Just leave the 2100 driver as is. I had both drivers installed for the 
> longest time without any problems.
> 
> You might want to try the MIS PKN ink if you're interested in BO 
> printing with PK ink. It's much more neutral than the Epson ink. Looks 
> really good.
> 
> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/roarkslab.html
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no
> 
> 
> 
> >Actually I am already using MIS Eboni black in their CIS.

What Daniel is suggesting is that if you are loading the 2200 driver so that
you can use BO on RC paper you might want to try MIS PK-Neutral (PKN) ink.
Dump the CFS for refillable cartridges.  You don't need the 2200 driver to
do BO on matte paper with an MK chip.

> From: hammerschmidtmark <finepics@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:20:08 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: BO Printing - not possible on Epson 2100!
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Staver
> <daniel@p...> wrote:
>> Just leave the 2100 driver as is. I had both drivers installed for the
>> longest time without any problems.
>> 
>> You might want to try the MIS PKN ink if you're interested in BO
>> printing with PK ink. It's much more neutral than the Epson ink. Looks
>> really good.
>> 
>> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/roarkslab.html
>> 
>> --
>> Daniel Staver
>> http://daniel.staver.no
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Actually I am already using MIS Eboni black in their CIS.
> 
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> What Daniel is suggesting is that if you are loading the 2200 driver
so that
> you can use BO on RC paper you might want to try MIS PK-Neutral
(PKN) ink.
> Dump the CFS for refillable cartridges.  You don't need the 2200
driver to
> do BO on matte paper with an MK chip.

Hi Steve, 

I have ordered the chip from MIS (not charging me for it - nice of
them), but trying out the 2200 driver in the meantime. I have just
printed with it and, joy of joys, pure black/white. A bit too dark in
the shadows so need to tinker a bit, but at least it has solved the
colour problem. I might stick with the 2200 driver though because I
see that 2880 dpi printing is an option with Enhanced Matte which is
not an option with the 2100 driver (it also puts profiles into the
Windows clour management tab in Printer Prefs - maybe I should remove
those to lighten shadows). I was planning to stick with the CIS system
at the moment until I get one of the newer spongeless kits. I have
been very pleased with it apart from a slight leak recently (due to a
loss of the airbreak in the cartridge). Why you suggest dropping the CIS?

Just difficult to swap inks around with a CFS eg from matte black to photo
black (Epson MK to Eboni etc).  What system are you on, Mac or PC?  I can
print 2880 ppi to matte paper (OS-X, 2100 driver).  Not sure what you mean
about the profiles but I think BO is intended to be Same as Source.

> From: hammerschmidtmark <finepics@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:51:52 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: BO Printing - not possible on Epson 2100!
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> What Daniel is suggesting is that if you are loading the 2200 driver
> so that
>> you can use BO on RC paper you might want to try MIS PK-Neutral
> (PKN) ink.
>> Dump the CFS for refillable cartridges.  You don't need the 2200
> driver to
>> do BO on matte paper with an MK chip.
> 
> Hi Steve, 
> 
> I have ordered the chip from MIS (not charging me for it - nice of
> them), but trying out the 2200 driver in the meantime. I have just
> printed with it and, joy of joys, pure black/white. A bit too dark in
> the shadows so need to tinker a bit, but at least it has solved the
> colour problem. I might stick with the 2200 driver though because I
> see that 2880 dpi printing is an option with Enhanced Matte which is
> not an option with the 2100 driver (it also puts profiles into the
> Windows clour management tab in Printer Prefs - maybe I should remove
> those to lighten shadows). I was planning to stick with the CIS system
> at the moment until I get one of the newer spongeless kits. I have
> been very pleased with it apart from a slight leak recently (due to a
> loss of the airbreak in the cartridge). Why you suggest dropping the CIS?
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Just difficult to swap inks around with a CFS eg from matte black to
photo
> black (Epson MK to Eboni etc).  What system are you on, Mac or PC? 
I can
> print 2880 ppi to matte paper (OS-X, 2100 driver).  Not sure what
you mean
> about the profiles but I think BO is intended to be Same as Source.
> 
> 
I am using PC. When you install the 2100 driver it puts a default
profile EE_177 into the printer properties/colour management tab.
Windows uses this for general printing and usually it does not
interfere with Photoshop & printing profiles (although sometimes it
can and ends up double profiling!). When I installed the 2200 driver
it has a similar windows profile EE123_1 and 6 other Epson profiles
like "SP2200 Enhanced Matte" of which SP2200 Watercolor PK is the
default profile! Again this has nothing to do with selecting profiles
in PS. I have just removed those profiles from the properties (they
are still available to PS) and printed again. My dark shadows have
gone and I have to say the print is superb - exactly as on the screen
(I am very happy indeed!) I cannot understand why the two drivers are
so radically different. Why does the UK driver not allow 2880dpi with
Archival Matte when the US driver does. It is very odd.

Has anyone tried loading the 2200 driver on a Mac to run the 2100?  Is it
possible?  (Works for PC)

An update on my conversations with Epson UK Technical Escalation Team Support re BO 
on the Epson 2100.  Essentially they are arguing that Black Only is not a good 
methodology for printing to RC paper because Epson PK is very warm (they believe people 
expect neutral) and the detail is very poor (read dots etc).  I have endeavoured to explain 
that their "duo-tone" approach (as they put it) simply doesn't work due to metamerism, 
that many people are happy with the simple approach to dealing with metamerism by just 
printing with the black cartridge, and that many people like the grainy look of black only.  
They have not answered why they approach PK differently from MK prints but I assume it is 
because the hue of PK is so warm.  As for why the US 2200 driver is different they simply 
respond that Epson USA is a different company!  If anyone wants black only to be allowed 
for 2100 owners and PK ink - and all those who want black only extended to the R800/
R1800 - had better lobby hard.  Epson is on a different wavelength to this community.  
They don't understand the demand for black only, they think that their colour inks work 
well with good profiles and, by extension, they do not intend to release dedicated B&W 
inks.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> 
wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried loading the 2200 driver on a Mac to run the 2100?  Is it
> possible?  (Works for PC)

Here is where I got to with Epson UK re Black Only printing:

"Thank you for your response. Regarding the inks and the use of composite greyscales I 
can confirm that this is not to compensate for the ink. The EPSON Stylus Photo 2100 is 
primarily a colour printer, the inks being developed for colour printing. The composite 
greyscale is used because of the loss of detail and gradation in prints when using black 
only.
However I do take your point regarding the choice of the use of 'Black only'.
I can assure you that EPSON does take the 'Black and White' printing market into 
consideration. We have a continuing research and development program developing new 
products and technologies to be released in both the near and more distant futures. We 
also have a strong belief that the Black and White printing market will respond favourably 
to advances we can make on this front.
With the EPSON Stylus Photo and 'Black only' printing; as discussed the reason we use 
composite black is because we feel that the market may be disappointed with results with 
Black ink only because of the loss of detail and gradation. However I will look into your 
request of putting the option on the driver of the EPSON Stylus Photo 2100. I must stress 
that development time is not unrestricted and there may be higher priorities within 
Epson's product range so we cannot promise to deliver, but as this seems to be a general 
wish of the Black and White printing community please feel confident that we will be 
looking further into this issue."

Hello Steve,

>Here is where I got to with Epson UK re Black Only printing

Excellent work!  Seems like you have definitely gotten their
attention.  Did you by any chance get into the subject of BO with the
1800?  And if  not, will you have an opportunity to do so?  I want
them to know that there are people out here who would like that.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hi Clayton

Yes I did.  I basically said that the R800 had been skipped as a B&W printer
and that it looked like the R1800 would follow the same path until it was
RIP supported with third party inks.  So while my specific issue was the
2100 (since that is the product I have) I was dealing with the general issue
of Black Only as something the B&W community would like to see preserved.
The bottom line is they think the market would be turned off by the lack of
detail and hue of BO.  They recognise that their colour driver was too broad
and so I think endeavoured to come up with a tighter "Black" duo-tone
approach for B&W.  I argued that this didn't pass muster either and that
many were happy with the more simplistic solution and its loss of detail and
dependence on single ink hue.

I think they are a little schizophrenic about B&W.  They design their
printers primarily for colour, recognise the deficiencies of the colour
approach to B&W but endeavour to tackle B&W from a colour point of view
(tighter gamut driver etc - ie their duo-tone) rather than from a tighter
ink set to begin with.  There was no explicit recognition that the grey
balancer was a failure and the R800/R1800 ink sets suggest a move away from
providing a better grey scale range from within the ink set.  My bet is
there is a split coming at some point (if anything at all) with a B&W ink
set and separate driver - either from Epson or as a JV with someone - but
maybe that is just wishful thinking.  We have already seen Epson partnering
with the 4000.

Steve

BTW I also addressed the issues of lack of custom paper size support, still
no support for swapping PK/MK inks in OS-X and lack of centring ability with
the standard and no margins drivers - all OS-X.


PS  Can I ask my question again?  Has anyone managed to load the 2200 OS-X
driver and drive a 2100 - does this work in the same way that it does for
the Windows driver?

> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 22:23:47 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: BO Printing - not possible on Epson 2100!
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Steve,
> 
>> Here is where I got to with Epson UK re Black Only printing
> 
> Excellent work!  Seems like you have definitely gotten their
> attention.  Did you by any chance get into the subject of BO with the
> 1800?  And if  not, will you have an opportunity to do so?  I want
> them to know that there are people out here who would like that.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> 
>

>Yes I did.  

Great, thank you.  Maybe there's hope.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm