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2005-03-06 by Scott Graham
Hi Does anyone out there regularly (mainly) use color film to produce gallery quality fine art B&W prints? If so, two questions: 1. what kind of film and why? 2. what disadvantages do you find? as a standard of comparison, I am currently using Plus X. For samples of my work see www.sgraham.com. I am also familar with many reasons for using color film for B&W (in the digital age), but not potential disadvantages. Thanks Scott
2005-03-06 by hogarth@snappydsl.net
I've made some photographs that capture a subject brightness range (SBR) of 11 stops. The scene was a magnolia blossom in direct sunlight. The range from dark green leaves to white flower highlights was 11 stops according to my zone VI modified Pentax spotmeter. I used 4x5 Tri-X which captured this SBR effortlessly. I've done similar work with a passion flower in my backyard, again in full sun, this time with 4x5 160PortraVC and "only" 10 stops, but the color negative film stayed with it. I expected color shifting in the denser regions, but didn't get any. I also exposed a sheet of Tri-X for this scene. I scanned them both on my drum scanner. Photoshop's default method to change mode to grayscale was a better match for the Tri-X than I would have imagined. But abstracting out the color didn't work for this scene, so I didn't take the idea any farther. But what this little experiment said to me was that it was possible to do what you want. The real question is, is it desirable? I would say no. I can think of three reasons off the top of my head why: 1) Color film response curves are not the same as B&W negative film curves. You can overcome that in Photoshop if you want. 2) You loose control if you aren't processing it yourself, and processing C-41 on your own is a pain unless you have the volume. That brings us to: 3) the extra cost of the film, and the processing. I'm sure there are other reasons to use B&W film when you want a B&W result, but that's all I've got off the top of my head right this minute ;-) -- Bruce Watson Scott Graham wrote:
> > Hi > > Does anyone out there regularly (mainly) use color film to produce > gallery quality fine art > B&W prints? > > If so, two questions: > > 1. what kind of film and why? > > 2. what disadvantages do you find? > > as a standard of comparison, I am currently using Plus X. For samples > of my work see > www.sgraham.com. > > I am also familar with many reasons for using color film for B&W (in > the digital age), but > not potential disadvantages. > > Thanks > Scott >
2005-03-06 by Paul Roark
I concur with what has already been said, but would like to add that the image quality just is not as good. I used Impresa 50 for a couple of years, thinking that the ability to do variable filtration in the computer would add more than the disadvantages took away. After that extended experiment, I went back to B&W film. With respect to image quality, the real reduction in quality occurs when you "filter" the image. If you think about it, the only way the individual color layers can be exposed by just using a small part of the spectrum is if those individual layers are much "faster" relative to B&W film of the same nominal speed. When the color film is un-filtered, the various emulsions' dye clouds act as multi-sampling the even out some of the grain (noise). But, when you want that nice dark, red-filtered sky, and use only the red-sensitive layer, what you thought of as slow, fine-grained film looks more like 400 speed film. So, for me, the image quality just was not there, and the usefulness of multi-filtering (red for the sky, green for selected foliage, for example) did not off-set the quality loss. Then there is my psychological problem -- I can't resist the pretty colors if I have color film in the camera, and those shots usually make bad B&W prints. I shall remain a purist B&W guy as long as possible. Paul www.PaulRoark.com _____________________________________
-----Original Message----- From: Scott Graham [mailto:gebilwil@...] Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 1:03 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] color film for B&W? Hi Does anyone out there regularly (mainly) use color film to produce gallery quality fine art B&W prints? If so, two questions: 1. what kind of film and why? 2. what disadvantages do you find? as a standard of comparison, I am currently using Plus X. For samples of my work see www.sgraham.com. I am also familar with many reasons for using color film for B&W (in the digital age), but not potential disadvantages. Thanks Scott Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2005-03-06 by njfranknj
Scott, If you *know* you only want B&W output and are skilled with filters and other specific techinques for it, there is no reason to shoot color negs. BUT, if you mix color and B&W in your print output, it makes a lot of sense to shoot color negs only. I use Portra 160 in 220 MF size for scanning because of the 10+ stops of contrast range (under controlled conditions, a friend measured as much as 12 before all detail was lost). The cost of developing without prints is not significantly more expenseive than do-it-yourself B&W ($7 a roll), especially if you count the cost of your time; there is no need for on-camera filtration most of the time and many images have significant improvements and flexibility when a careful channel mixer conversion method for B&W is used. Judging by the images on your webpage, I doubt, however, that those advantages will amount to much for your nudes, unless you decided to combine different colored lights and mixed image channels for some kind of effect. Frank > Scott Graham wrote: > > > > > Hi > > > > Does anyone out there regularly (mainly) use color film to produce > > gallery quality fine art > > B&W prints? > > > > If so, two questions: > > > > 1. what kind of film and why? > > > > 2. what disadvantages do you find? > > > > as a standard of comparison, I am currently using Plus X. For samples
> > of my work see > > www.sgraham.com. > > > > I am also familar with many reasons for using color film for B&W (in > > the digital age), but > > not potential disadvantages. > > > > Thanks > > Scott > >
2005-03-07 by Harold Goldberg
Check Out Scott Graham's website. You can subscribe to the B & W website and get all of these. HG njfranknj <kolwicz@...> wrote: Scott, If you *know* you only want B&W output and are skilled with filters and other specific techinques for it, there is no reason to shoot color negs. BUT, if you mix color and B&W in your print output, it makes a lot of sense to shoot color negs only. I use Portra 160 in 220 MF size for scanning because of the 10+ stops of contrast range (under controlled conditions, a friend measured as much as 12 before all detail was lost). The cost of developing without prints is not significantly more expenseive than do-it-yourself B&W ($7 a roll), especially if you count the cost of your time; there is no need for on-camera filtration most of the time and many images have significant improvements and flexibility when a careful channel mixer conversion method for B&W is used. Judging by the images on your webpage, I doubt, however, that those advantages will amount to much for your nudes, unless you decided to combine different colored lights and mixed image channels for some kind of effect. Frank > Scott Graham wrote: > > > > > Hi > > > > Does anyone out there regularly (mainly) use color film to produce > > gallery quality fine art > > B&W prints? > > > > If so, two questions: > > > > 1. what kind of film and why? > > > > 2. what disadvantages do you find? > > > > as a standard of comparison, I am currently using Plus X. For samples > > of my work see > > www.sgraham.com. > > > > I am also familar with many reasons for using color film for B&W (in > > the digital age), but > > not potential disadvantages. > > > > Thanks > > Scott > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-03-07 by Scott Graham
Thank you Frank and others for the info to date. Frank is of course right any potential advantages of color film would not really apply to my nudes. I think that I dozed off during my intial post. Should not have mentioned my website, but expressed a interest in other subjects that actually contain color (landscapes, etc.) :) sorry Scott probably would --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Harold Goldberg <hgoldberg502@y...> wrote:
> Check Out Scott Graham's website. You can subscribe to the B & W website > and get all of these. > > HG > > > njfranknj <kolwicz@e...> wrote: > > Scott, > > If you *know* you only want B&W output and are skilled with filters > and other specific techinques for it, there is no reason to shoot > color negs. BUT, if you mix color and B&W in your print output, it > makes a lot of sense to shoot color negs only. > > I use Portra 160 in 220 MF size for scanning because of the 10+ stops > of contrast range (under controlled conditions, a friend measured as > much as 12 before all detail was lost). The cost of developing without > prints is not significantly more expenseive than do-it-yourself B&W > ($7 a roll), especially if you count the cost of your time; there is > no need for on-camera filtration most of the time and many images have > significant improvements and flexibility when a careful channel mixer > conversion method for B&W is used. > > Judging by the images on your webpage, I doubt, however, that those > advantages will amount to much for your nudes, unless you decided to > combine different colored lights and mixed image channels for some > kind of effect. > > Frank > > > > Scott Graham wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > Does anyone out there regularly (mainly) use color film to produce > > > gallery quality fine art > > > B&W prints? > > > > > > If so, two questions: > > >
2005-03-08 by B. Ellis
>I am also familar with many reasons for using color film for B&W (in the digital age), but >not potential disadvantages. I make gallery quality fine art b&w prints (occasionally) from scanned negatives but I always use black and white film (TMax 100 and Ilford HP5+). It's never occurred to me to use color film, partly because I didn't think there were any advantages to doing so and there were at least two known disadvantages (loss of the ability to process the film myself using the zone system for contrast control and the additional cost involved in buying the film and having a lab process it). I realize this isn't responsive to your question but why would you use color film instead of the black and white you now use?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Graham" <gebilwil@...> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 4:03 PM Subject: [Digital BW] color film for B&W? Hi Does anyone out there regularly (mainly) use color film to produce gallery quality fine art B&W prints? If so, two questions: 1. what kind of film and why? 2. what disadvantages do you find? as a standard of comparison, I am currently using Plus X. For samples of my work see www.sgraham.com. I am also familar with many reasons for using color film for B&W (in the digital age), but not potential disadvantages. Thanks Scott Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2005-03-08 by Scott Graham
Well for something with color in it, not my nudes :), it is often easier to select something by color. Want to select a leafy bush with light streaking thru it? (golly knows why), select "green" so to speak. And you can of course apply a red filter or some other one later, but more especially you could apply it to the sky and not the ruby red lips for ex. However, both Paul (a few answers back) and you have made me think I will stick with Plus X "forever". I do zone system too, but with scanning and photoshop it is less important (NOT unimportant). On cost, when I consider the value of time developing it probably is not more expensive to have it done, IF it could be done well. Scott --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "B. Ellis" <bellis60@v...> wrote: > >I am also familar with many reasons for using color film for B&W (in the > digital age), but > >not potential disadvantages. > > I make gallery quality fine art b&w prints (occasionally) from scanned > negatives but I always use black and white film (TMax 100 and Ilford HP5+). > It's never occurred to me to use color film, partly because I didn't think > there were any advantages to doing so and there were at least two known > disadvantages (loss of the ability to process the film myself using the zone > system for contrast control and the additional cost involved in buying the > film and having a lab process it). I realize this isn't responsive to your > question but why would you use color film instead of the black and white you > now use? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Graham" <gebilwil@n...> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 4:03 PM > Subject: [Digital BW] color film for B&W? > > > > > Hi > > Does anyone out there regularly (mainly) use color film to produce gallery > quality fine art > B&W prints? > > If so, two questions: > > 1. what kind of film and why? > > 2. what disadvantages do you find? > > as a standard of comparison, I am currently using Plus X. For samples of my > work see > www.sgraham.com. > > I am also familar with many reasons for using color film for B&W (in the > digital age), but > not potential disadvantages. > > Thanks > Scott > > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as > they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the > membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from > the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, > GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY > TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > Yahoo! Groups Links