Digital BW, The Print

I am a new user of the Harrington QTR who has been quite happy with the 
results so far.  Question? Can the MIS eboni black be substituted for 
the Epson Matte black without  screwing up my color balance for color 
work?  And too, is the Eboni black that much better than the Epson 
matte black?  I am getting 1.65 dmax on Hanhmule photo rag.   Are there 
issues with clogging or nozzle deflection of which I should be aware?  
I am a Cone refugee of sorts and am a little snake bit with their inks 
that seem to clog and deflect nozzles.  I print large prints  on a 7600.

Paul


________________________
PAUL  THACKER
17133 NW Lucy Reeder Rd.
Portland, OR 97231
503.621.3091
mobile 503.504.2016
http://paulthacker.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Paul,

I just recently started using Eboni in my 2200 with the QTR (just 
love my QTR). So far, I have only printed b/w, as I do very little 
color printing. But I must tell you, it is very difficult for me to 
see any difference, especially after both have dried thoroughly. 

At first print, I immediately felt that Eboni was a bit cooler (not 
necessarily more appealing, though), but a couple of days later, 
when I started swapping some prints around, trying to identify each 
one, I simply could not tell which was which! 

I have not measured D-max, don't even know how (though I am 
curious), but to my eye there is no perceivable difference. If it 
takes a densitometer to see the difference, I wonder how deeply the 
measured difference will affect those who view my work (LOL)! 
Nevertheless, curiosity killed the cat, and I am a cerified geek, so 
I may just have to delve into this issue to find out for myself!

Of course, I am only an amateur, so my needs may be different from 
some others. 

So, since I've purchased two Eboni cartridges, I think I will use 
them up. But, once they're empty, I will most likely go back to 
using Epson OEM Matte Black, for simple convenience and perhaps just 
a little more confidence. 

Unless, of course, I happen to acquire a densitometer and discover a 
big difference in D-max!

Good shooting,

Jeff
http://pbase.com/k2kv


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thacker 
<thacker@p...> wrote:
> 
> I am a new user of the Harrington QTR who has been quite happy 
with the 
> results so far.  Question? Can the MIS eboni black be substituted 
for 
> the Epson Matte black without  screwing up my color balance for 
color 
> work?  And too, is the Eboni black that much better than the Epson 
> matte black?  I am getting 1.65 dmax on Hanhmule photo rag.   Are 
there 
> issues with clogging or nozzle deflection of which I should be 
aware?  
> I am a Cone refugee of sorts and am a little snake bit with their 
inks 
> that seem to clog and deflect nozzles.  I print large prints  on a 
7600.

> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> ________________________
> PAUL  THACKER
> 17133 NW Lucy Reeder Rd.
> Portland, OR 97231
> 503.621.3091
> mobile 503.504.2016
> http://paulthacker.com/
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Jeff,

>I just recently started using Eboni in my 2200 with the QTR (just 
>love my QTR)...it is very difficult for me to see any difference, 
>especially after both have dried thoroughly. 
> 
>At first print, I immediately felt that Eboni was a bit cooler...but 
>a couple of days later, when I started swapping some prints around, 
>trying to identify each one, I simply could not tell which was
which! 

It may be because there is very little K in the prints.  Depending on
the image and the curves, it's possible that K is only introduced in a
quantity sufficient to tell a difference in the lowest zones.  For
example, when using UT7 with sliders, I discovered that there is no K
at all until about RGB 5, or about 98%, and it isn't pure K until RGB
0, maybe 1.  So it's possible that something similar is going on
there.  It may require a low key image before the difference is
noticeable.  In BO printing, which is all pure K, there is an
immediately apparent difference.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hi Clayton,

That's an interesting observation, and I trust your knowledge of 
these things. But, I am nevertheless surprised to hear this. In a 
b/w print from QTR, isn't the printed black tone primarily rendered 
with K, while the other inks simply "enhance" it? Are you saying 
that most of the black rendering is actually created with M, C, and 
Y? You can tell I'm quite new at this...

Thanks,

Jeff
http://pbase.com/k2kv


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> 
> Hello Jeff,
> 
> >I just recently started using Eboni in my 2200 with the QTR (just 
> >love my QTR)...it is very difficult for me to see any difference, 
> >especially after both have dried thoroughly. 
> > 
> >At first print, I immediately felt that Eboni was a bit 
cooler...but 
> >a couple of days later, when I started swapping some prints 
around, 
> >trying to identify each one, I simply could not tell which was
> which! 
> 
> It may be because there is very little K in the prints.  Depending 
on
> the image and the curves, it's possible that K is only introduced 
in a
> quantity sufficient to tell a difference in the lowest zones.  For
> example, when using UT7 with sliders, I discovered that there is 
no K
> at all until about RGB 5, or about 98%, and it isn't pure K until 
RGB

> 0, maybe 1.  So it's possible that something similar is going on
> there.  It may require a low key image before the difference is
> noticeable.  In BO printing, which is all pure K, there is an
> immediately apparent difference.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Jeff,

>That's an interesting observation, and I trust your knowledge of 
>these things. But, I am nevertheless surprised to hear this. In a 
>b/w print from QTR, isn't the printed black tone primarily rendered 
>with K, while the other inks simply "enhance" it? Are you saying 
>that most of the black rendering is actually created with M, C, and 
>Y? You can tell I'm quite new at this...

I can't say about QTR because I don't use it.  My understanding is
that with QTR and the curves you can do anything you want.  However,
your description reminded me of my observations using UT7 with
sliders, so I just wanted to pass it along as food for thought, a
possible explanation of what may be happening and a clue for your own
investigations.  

Perhaps some experienced QTR users will jump in here and shed
some more light...


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Yes, Clayton is right. Depending on where you set the density for the
darkest gray (next to black) for your particular inkset, there is a
large amount of blending between black and various levels of gray.
These grays "enhance" by hiding the appearance of dots but inevitably
change the black tone to a certain extent. If you look at the plotted
curves for a typical quadtone inkset you'd find nowhere is black 
rendered alone ... well almost.

But of course with QTR you can design curves such that black is pushed
further toward the brighter region of the grayscale.

--nick

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:

> 
> Hello Jeff,
> 
> >That's an interesting observation, and I trust your knowledge of 
> >these things. But, I am nevertheless surprised to hear this. In a 
> >b/w print from QTR, isn't the printed black tone primarily rendered 
> >with K, while the other inks simply "enhance" it? Are you saying 
> >that most of the black rendering is actually created with M, C, and 
> >Y? You can tell I'm quite new at this...
> 
> I can't say about QTR because I don't use it.  My understanding is
> that with QTR and the curves you can do anything you want.  However,
> your description reminded me of my observations using UT7 with
> sliders, so I just wanted to pass it along as food for thought, a
> possible explanation of what may be happening and a clue for your own
> investigations.  
> 
> Perhaps some experienced QTR users will jump in here and shed
> some more light...
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I sent an email to Ed earlier this evening mentioning some serious 
problems I was having with Vuescan and the glass holder on my 120tf. He 
replied immediately and started debugging the problems. After a flurry 
of emails back and forth we ended up with a version that works perfectly.

Ed also showed me how I easily can adjust the frame spacing and cropping 
to accommodate different film sizes in the glass holder.

This is simply outstanding support! Compare that to Silverfast who still 
hasn't resolved relatively simple issues mentioned to them months ago.

I'm now really happy to say goodbye to Silverfast and go back to using 
Vuescan once again.

I know this is somewhat off topic, but I thougt I'd mention it since I 
criticed Vuescan earlier on this list for not supporting the 120tf properly.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no